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Tim · 05-15-2006, 01:04 PM

You sound like you are approaching the conversation honorably. I can work with that. One of the reason I haunt boards like this is for a good argument that challenges me to reconsider my point of view. I would like to offer that to other as well, which is why I do not shy away from making someone angry … “I can make you feel but I can’t make you think.’ ;-) (Jethro Tull)

Let me give you an example of something though, and I will use my own people as metaphor so if I am hashing on anyone I will make myself first in line.

In the old days, and for quite a while after contact, my people used to eat human harts. We also tortured prisoners to death and we all sat around and watched them die. Now, we did these things because, in the case of eating human hearts, they were always hearts of people who were particularly good in battle or people (almost always men) who were seen as being powerful. The idea was that the eater would ingest some of that power, strength in battle etc. In the case of torture it was a way of giving the captured a way of defeating us even though he had been taken. You see, if he went through the torture, yes to his death, without crying out then the people got nothing out of doing this. I know it sounds sick but many people would watch honestly hopping the man would not cry out. In a small way it is like people watching car racing today, no one goes hoping to see a car crash.

So at one point in our history this fellow named Decomsee (most Whites say Tecumseh) made a very powerful speech against these practices. He was a kid at the time, something like 14 or 16 years old. Even though Decomsee was Shawnee his speech changed the way all Ahnishnabek did these things. In fact, we stopped. Decomsee was speaking out against a religious practice that had gone on for countless years and had the full backing of the Midewiwin (Grand Medicine Society). At no time did anyone vilify Decomsee, no one tried to de-value what he said or attack his character instead of his words. They argued greatly about what the boy said but they did it honorably. In the end, as is our way, (and ultimately was all Indians undoing) we left it up to the individual to decide what was right.

By comparison, as Shane has proven to us, if I say that Christianity has issues with sexuality (which is analogous to Decomsee saying the Ahnishnabek have an issue with torture) I can expect, and do expect, an immediate list of variety of spurious responses from Christian people that follow along pretty consistent lines. One of those is that Christians immediately assume the argument is wrong and then go about some pretty contorted means to justify their own point of view.

Now that is not absolute, I have friends who are Christians. I go to their houses. We have fine arguments together. What none of my friends do, however, is the kind of dis-honorable argumentation that Shane stereo-typifies from the Christian community.

What I would like to challenge you to do Lark, is to keep more than an open mind, keep an inquisitive mind. If I tell you that my belief is that Christ was a militant messianic Jew and was the Osama Binladin to Rome in the first century …. I would challenge you to not get mad at that statement. Now don’t get me wrong, it’s a bit of an attack and mentioning Christ and Osama Binladin in the same sentence is bound to get you, or any other Christians, hackles up … and for good reason. So ask me to support that (which I can and am willing to do) and take exception to it, you should your Christian but don’t simply assume that there is NO POSSIBLE way that I could have ANY basis for saying that and then just roll over anything I have to say as if I never said it. At the end of the day feel free to walk away thinking that I am still full of $&!T. I am perfectly all right with that, but walk away with a clear understanding of how I validated my argument AND that my argument IS valid, just not one you agree with.

05-15-2006, 01:04 PM	#120
Tim New Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 26	You sound like you are approaching the conversation honorably. I can work with that. One of the reason I haunt boards like this is for a good argument that challenges me to reconsider my point of view. I would like to offer that to other as well, which is why I do not shy away from making someone angry … “I can make you feel but I can’t make you think.’ ;-) (Jethro Tull) Let me give you an example of something though, and I will use my own people as metaphor so if I am hashing on anyone I will make myself first in line. In the old days, and for quite a while after contact, my people used to eat human harts. We also tortured prisoners to death and we all sat around and watched them die. Now, we did these things because, in the case of eating human hearts, they were always hearts of people who were particularly good in battle or people (almost always men) who were seen as being powerful. The idea was that the eater would ingest some of that power, strength in battle etc. In the case of torture it was a way of giving the captured a way of defeating us even though he had been taken. You see, if he went through the torture, yes to his death, without crying out then the people got nothing out of doing this. I know it sounds sick but many people would watch honestly hopping the man would not cry out. In a small way it is like people watching car racing today, no one goes hoping to see a car crash. So at one point in our history this fellow named Decomsee (most Whites say Tecumseh) made a very powerful speech against these practices. He was a kid at the time, something like 14 or 16 years old. Even though Decomsee was Shawnee his speech changed the way all Ahnishnabek did these things. In fact, we stopped. Decomsee was speaking out against a religious practice that had gone on for countless years and had the full backing of the Midewiwin (Grand Medicine Society). At no time did anyone vilify Decomsee, no one tried to de-value what he said or attack his character instead of his words. They argued greatly about what the boy said but they did it honorably. In the end, as is our way, (and ultimately was all Indians undoing) we left it up to the individual to decide what was right. By comparison, as Shane has proven to us, if I say that Christianity has issues with sexuality (which is analogous to Decomsee saying the Ahnishnabek have an issue with torture) I can expect, and do expect, an immediate list of variety of spurious responses from Christian people that follow along pretty consistent lines. One of those is that Christians immediately assume the argument is wrong and then go about some pretty contorted means to justify their own point of view. Now that is not absolute, I have friends who are Christians. I go to their houses. We have fine arguments together. What none of my friends do, however, is the kind of dis-honorable argumentation that Shane stereo-typifies from the Christian community. What I would like to challenge you to do Lark, is to keep more than an open mind, keep an inquisitive mind. If I tell you that my belief is that Christ was a militant messianic Jew and was the Osama Binladin to Rome in the first century …. I would challenge you to not get mad at that statement. Now don’t get me wrong, it’s a bit of an attack and mentioning Christ and Osama Binladin in the same sentence is bound to get you, or any other Christians, hackles up … and for good reason. So ask me to support that (which I can and am willing to do) and take exception to it, you should your Christian but don’t simply assume that there is NO POSSIBLE way that I could have ANY basis for saying that and then just roll over anything I have to say as if I never said it. At the end of the day feel free to walk away thinking that I am still full of $&!T. I am perfectly all right with that, but walk away with a clear understanding of how I validated my argument AND that my argument IS valid, just not one you agree with.