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Valg · 09-27-2004, 11:36 AM

"Dragon Master" wrote:
A skill-based, levelless system is pretty much required for a good RP mud. A classless system isn't really, but it definitely helps a lot. Also, judging from your comments, Saren, you have never played an RPI before, have you?

This is a ridiculous generalization.

Using our own system, we're class-based, and we have levels. You have skills, which require a minimum level, and they go up through use (dependent on challenge... mashing weak monsters over and over is unproductive for skill improvement). You can advance levels by combat (the most common), exploration, successful commerce, roleplaying, skill improvement, automated or custom-run quests, etc.

All interaction between characters is IC. We have storylines, quests, areas well-suited for "explorer" players, religions, cabals, etc. We've been around for over 10 years, so the storylines often run deep, and our IC libraries have megabytes of stories, historical accounts, etc. All our areas were written for our game, and tie together accordingly. All of these only make sense in a roleplaying environment- why would a hack-n-slash game invest all of those resources?

Now, all the numerical variables aren't IC. If anyone went around saying "I have an 87 in the sword skill", it would be frowned upon, and a staff member would probably talk to them about roleplaying. A character doesn't know they are at 47% movement points... they know they're starting to tire.

All games with automated combat have these kinds of statistics behind them. Good roleplayers know how to interpret these statistics the way you can self-assess your own RL talents. They are a means to an end.

Now, I've seen games that are skill-based and levelless, and the roleplaying was horrible. It was technically enforced, but the game didn't support it well, and the players were boring, slipped OOC when it suited them, and nothing was really going on. Am I supposed to discard those conclusions and say "Oh. But they didn't have levels and called themselves an RPI. The roleplaying must have been good."

We have a strong roleplaying community on our game. The newer players tend to be a little rough while they work their way up to our level of roleplaying, but the veterans range from "good" (stays in character, has a basic role that they stick to, etc. Does enough to stay within our rules at all times, but doesn't go too far out of his or her way beyond that.) to "amazing" (carefully crafted virtual people, with a past, a present, and a future). I've been there a long time, and that's my impression of our playerbase. Am I supposed
to discard those conclusions because underneath the characters, we're tracking statistics in a way you don't like?

Sorry, Dragon Master, but you're taking a very immature stance on all of this. You're trying to boil down an issue with a great deal of nuance ("What is good roleplaying?") and pigeonhole it based on a few arbitrary, reductionist 'laws'. Skills or no skills, levels or no levels, classes or no classes... roleplaying can exist or not exist in any game.

09-27-2004, 11:36 AM	#93
Valg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Carrion Fields Posts: 643	"Dragon Master" wrote: A skill-based, levelless system is pretty much required for a good RP mud. A classless system isn't really, but it definitely helps a lot. Also, judging from your comments, Saren, you have never played an RPI before, have you? This is a ridiculous generalization. Using our own system, we're class-based, and we have levels. You have skills, which require a minimum level, and they go up through use (dependent on challenge... mashing weak monsters over and over is unproductive for skill improvement). You can advance levels by combat (the most common), exploration, successful commerce, roleplaying, skill improvement, automated or custom-run quests, etc. All interaction between characters is IC. We have storylines, quests, areas well-suited for "explorer" players, religions, cabals, etc. We've been around for over 10 years, so the storylines often run deep, and our IC libraries have megabytes of stories, historical accounts, etc. All our areas were written for our game, and tie together accordingly. All of these only make sense in a roleplaying environment- why would a hack-n-slash game invest all of those resources? Now, all the numerical variables aren't IC. If anyone went around saying "I have an 87 in the sword skill", it would be frowned upon, and a staff member would probably talk to them about roleplaying. A character doesn't know they are at 47% movement points... they know they're starting to tire. All games with automated combat have these kinds of statistics behind them. Good roleplayers know how to interpret these statistics the way you can self-assess your own RL talents. They are a means to an end. Now, I've seen games that are skill-based and levelless, and the roleplaying was horrible. It was technically enforced, but the game didn't support it well, and the players were boring, slipped OOC when it suited them, and nothing was really going on. Am I supposed to discard those conclusions and say "Oh. But they didn't have levels and called themselves an RPI. The roleplaying must have been good." We have a strong roleplaying community on our game. The newer players tend to be a little rough while they work their way up to our level of roleplaying, but the veterans range from "good" (stays in character, has a basic role that they stick to, etc. Does enough to stay within our rules at all times, but doesn't go too far out of his or her way beyond that.) to "amazing" (carefully crafted virtual people, with a past, a present, and a future). I've been there a long time, and that's my impression of our playerbase. Am I supposed to discard those conclusions because underneath the characters, we're tracking statistics in a way you don't like? Sorry, Dragon Master, but you're taking a very immature stance on all of this. You're trying to boil down an issue with a great deal of nuance ("What is good roleplaying?") and pigeonhole it based on a few arbitrary, reductionist 'laws'. Skills or no skills, levels or no levels, classes or no classes... roleplaying can exist or not exist in any game.