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The_Disciple · 09-26-2004, 10:14 PM

D&D has levels, I just find it hard to say that there is any realism in that.

That's part of what I'm calling close-minded.

First, make the realization that any game system, any, is an approximation of reality. It is, further, something of which the characters in it are typically unaware. A 3rd-level fighter is not aware that he's a 3rd-level fighter.

What a level system is is a way of representing that certain individuals excel above others. I am not saying it is the ideal way to approximate such a thing, although I think it's a pretty good one for the purposes of a game.

Let's take two guys. One has taken a basics in boxing class at his local YMCA. The second is the heavyweight champion of the world. I don't think there's anything unrealistic in saying that we could choose to model them as both being members of, let's say, the fighter class, with the champ being a higher level. It represents in simple, easy to grasp terms, that the second guy can fight better, take more punishment in the ring, etc.

Could you also model that in a good purely skill-based system? Of course you could. That doesn't invalidate the level-based model. At the core of a level-based mechanic is the belief that people improve at what they do with experience. There aren't a whole lot of people in the world, especially in the professional world, that don't share this belief. Just look at the experience requirements for nearly any job opening.

Whenever I have seen D&D being played, there is often much more of a focus on killing monsters and gaining levels(which mysteriously make you better at things completely unrelated to killing monsters) then there is to developing a character and a viable world.

This is also certainly true about most MUDs or other similar multi-user games. You'll notice I'm not trying to assert that they're all that way, which is pretty much what you're doing.

And, finally...

And the fact that the story basis for Armageddon came from a D&D game world? So? You also know that Armageddon use to be a hack and slash game? So the idea for the Armageddon RP game came from a hack and slash game. Does this mean hack and slash games are great examples of RP just because an RPI got ideas from them?

I guess it's easy to counterargue anything if you always just pretend your opponent said something stupid instead of what they actually said. I'm sorry, that isn't exactly winning me over.

The point is this: there are a lot of cool stories built up around D&D. You could almost call it its own set of mythologies. Now, I'm NOT saying that the fact that there are a lot of cool, rich stories built around the D&D game mean that the game is inherently all about awesome roleplaying. That would be stupid as discussed above. What I am saying is that the fact that there are such rich backstories for the D&D worlds indicates that the converse, that D&D is all about mindless monster butchery, is probably not true either.

To look at it another way: if the unique Dark Sun backstory can be fertile ground for a MUD like Armageddon to become this standout RP MUD, even though many MUDs are hack and slash, it stands to reason that the fertile ground of that backstory also could (and certainly has, as it happens) spawn D&D campaigns of similar standout RP.

D&D, like a MUD, is what you make of it.

09-26-2004, 10:14 PM	#92
The_Disciple Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 113	D&D has levels, I just find it hard to say that there is any realism in that. That's part of what I'm calling close-minded. First, make the realization that any game system, any, is an approximation of reality. It is, further, something of which the characters in it are typically unaware. A 3rd-level fighter is not aware that he's a 3rd-level fighter. What a level system is is a way of representing that certain individuals excel above others. I am not saying it is the ideal way to approximate such a thing, although I think it's a pretty good one for the purposes of a game. Let's take two guys. One has taken a basics in boxing class at his local YMCA. The second is the heavyweight champion of the world. I don't think there's anything unrealistic in saying that we could choose to model them as both being members of, let's say, the fighter class, with the champ being a higher level. It represents in simple, easy to grasp terms, that the second guy can fight better, take more punishment in the ring, etc. Could you also model that in a good purely skill-based system? Of course you could. That doesn't invalidate the level-based model. At the core of a level-based mechanic is the belief that people improve at what they do with experience. There aren't a whole lot of people in the world, especially in the professional world, that don't share this belief. Just look at the experience requirements for nearly any job opening. Whenever I have seen D&D being played, there is often much more of a focus on killing monsters and gaining levels(which mysteriously make you better at things completely unrelated to killing monsters) then there is to developing a character and a viable world. This is also certainly true about most MUDs or other similar multi-user games. You'll notice I'm not trying to assert that they're all that way, which is pretty much what you're doing. And, finally... And the fact that the story basis for Armageddon came from a D&D game world? So? You also know that Armageddon use to be a hack and slash game? So the idea for the Armageddon RP game came from a hack and slash game. Does this mean hack and slash games are great examples of RP just because an RPI got ideas from them? I guess it's easy to counterargue anything if you always just pretend your opponent said something stupid instead of what they actually said. I'm sorry, that isn't exactly winning me over. The point is this: there are a lot of cool stories built up around D&D. You could almost call it its own set of mythologies. Now, I'm NOT saying that the fact that there are a lot of cool, rich stories built around the D&D game mean that the game is inherently all about awesome roleplaying. That would be stupid as discussed above. What I am saying is that the fact that there are such rich backstories for the D&D worlds indicates that the converse, that D&D is all about mindless monster butchery, is probably not true either. To look at it another way: if the unique Dark Sun backstory can be fertile ground for a MUD like Armageddon to become this standout RP MUD, even though many MUDs are hack and slash, it stands to reason that the fertile ground of that backstory also could (and certainly has, as it happens) spawn D&D campaigns of similar standout RP. D&D, like a MUD, is what you make of it.