View Single Post
Old 11-01-2002, 10:39 AM   #6
Slanted
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 29
Slanted is on a distinguished road
Loremaster,

My gripe about RT's is not so much that they are unrealistic, just that they are incredibly boring when used in conjunction with boring repetition. My gripe is with systems whose ONLY way to prevent powergamers from advancing is to give them horrendous roundtimes between verbs. Essentially in games where you follow the same process at all skill levels this is usually evident and I don't like it. To give you a more elaborate example, let me give an example of a system I don't like and one that I do:

First, the repetitious roundtime system for smithing:
1)There is a set list of verbs to creating, oh, a shortsword..
You smelt the ore at a forge (100 second roundtime)
you purify it somehow (200 second roundtime)
You make the mold (500 second roundtime)
you pour the metal ( 500 second roundtime)
Then you let it cool for 4 realtime hours.
When your done you follow a set of similiar verbs with inherent roundtimes to assemble the hilt and sword.

As a smith progresses he uses the exact same verbs for every single short sword he will ever make. The only difference is usually the type of raw materials he uses (skill level determines what he can or cannot work with). In fact, the process will be similiar for all blades, and most of the time for all weapons of any type. The ONLY thing that prevents him from advancing at a brain blastingly huge rate is a simulated time when he can do nothing but talk (if there is someone else around) or sit there and do emotes.

Now, let me outline a system that has less repetition and instead of roundtime, uses other methods to control power gamers. First, I must say this is in a fantastical world with magical metals (which I like for the most part a lot more). I also assume that becoming proficient with normal steel will be easy, because, quite frankly, I do NOT play muds to simulate reality exactly. I want to play a fantastical character in a fantastical world. I want to spend my time doing things that I could not do in the real world, such as forging magical metals. Anyway.

A smith learns the basics of forming steel as the beginning of his career. For example, he first learns varous techniques used to smelt metal. He first learns different verbs associated with different purifying alchemical solutions. He melts some metal into some sort of container (basically he puts the metal into the container, puts it on a forge and can then leave it there while he goes to gather ingredients for the purifying mixes. During this time he can act normally, but he must wait a short time for the metal to be ready. However, that time is not long and usually if he spends it getting whatever ingredients he wishes to experiment with during the purification. He then pours the first purifying mix. He must wait for the mix to seep, but again it is not a roundtime, but a set time he must wait before the next process. During this time he can either mix together some other ingredients for the next step or he can clean his forge hammers or whatever. The key here is that each step might take a short amount of time, but it gives the player an opportunity to be doing different things that lead up to the end product while he is waiting. It is certainly my opinion that being able to constantly work towards a goal is a lot better than a few short steps with a lot of boring waiting.

Also, note that during these first few steps the player is not following the same process over and over again. He has the option to experiment with a 'pour', 'drip', 'cover' or any number of verbs depending on what he thinks will work. Also each step in the process is unique and produces a different component for the final product.

When the person has mastered steel (which, is when he is truly able to call himself a smith), things get really exciting. Each metal would require wholly unique processes during each step. For example, lets say Boringium needs to be cooled in a certain type of purified water that only gathers in a certain type of cave. Or emailium requires a certain type of fungus to be mixed with it during the purifying stage within a few minutes after it is picked. Sure its a lot to remember, but it ensures that people are doing new things all the time as they progress in skill and that they are not just sitting around waiting for an RT counter to elapse.

Is this complex and hard to code? Yup. Is it possible? Yup, just hard. It is because I have such high standards that I am willing to pay for gaming hehe.

As for smaller roundtimes, during such times as combat, I don't really mind them terribly. Well that is to say I don't mind them terribly if they are not used in conjunction with the same verb being essentially delayed spammed over and over and over again. It is for this reason that I didn't like inferno. All I did in combat was type maybe one of three verbs over and over and over again for endless hours while i waited the obligitory 6 seconds. What I would like better is to be able to have a wide variety of combat options that incurred a roundtime, but also have a large list of options that can be used during roundtime. For example, lets say I have a spell that makes the ground rumble, but I must spend 6 seconds gathering energy for it. During this time, I would not think it adverse to a game for me to be able to angle my shield downward to protect from rocks or to conversely draw my cloak around my face tightly to protect my eyes.

Essentially I like to have options other than talking while I wait for things to happen. Sure in reality it takes a few seconds to angle a sword for the perfect blow. However in that time I am not simply angling the sword. I am moving about, I am dodging rocks, I am adjusting my armor etc. I like to have the option to simulate those actions rather than have it abstracted to the level where it assumes I do all of these and gives me a roundtime where all I can do is watch and comment.

Now, for diminishing marginal utility-

I can see what you are saying, it is after all, a law of the perceptive world to some extent. However, again, I play fantasy games not to simulate reality, but to superceed it. Perhaps perceptively the difference between a head nurse and a senior nurse is much harder to see skillwise than the difference between a nurse and a layman. However, there is most certainly a difference in skills. The problem is not so much that the degree of differences is so disparate, it is just that only the truly skilled can perceive the differences.

For example, I have good friend who is an author. When he and I compare books he notices and appreciates differences in style of which I have no clue to their very existance. By the same token, I am a computer programmer, so when we compare programs I am a lot more perceptive to the various techniques that one program uses in conjunction to another that are better or more appropriate. There is still a noticable difference between a master and a grand master, but perhaps only those two can appreciate it fully.

How does this relate to games? Quite frankly its only a matter of scaling challenges and progression proportionately at all levels. If a skill raise gives you 5 points at level 2, it should at level 400 also. By the same token the things you will be doing with that skill should also increase proportionately. I like to know that my effort to make the perfect broadsword is just as worthwhile as my effort to learn how to sharpen a blade at all. Perhaps its is a bit unrealistic, but by the same token so is escaping into an alternate reality and doing things that have been obsolete technologically for hundreds of years in real life.

I thank you very much for your post though, there were a lot of good points contained therein.
Slanted is offline   Reply With Quote