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Old 02-19-2003, 05:07 PM   #21
the_logos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Feb. 19 2003,16:07)
We're not unique in this.  There are a number of quality games that emphasize these sorts of features.  For you to make sweeping generalizations about "95%" and "time=success" is ignorant.

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If all you're interested in is skill, I have to wonder why you're playing muds.
Because they're the most skill-intensive games I've found, and challenge me on diverse fronts.  Maybe you've just played the wrong ones?
I fail to see how talking about your game disproves my statement that in 95% of muds (that is a rough estimate, obviously), time = success. There are a couple thousand muds in the world, and most of them are barely-altered stock code of the loot n' level variety run by idiots on a power trip. If you don't believe me, go to The Mud Connector and try picking random muds for awhile.

If you've taken stock code and altered it to make a better game, that's great, and I applaud you for it. I'm a little puzzled why you think I was attacking your game, in any case.

Certainly the muds that have held -my- attention have been largely skill-based (though not oriented around monster bashing, which I don't get into.), but they are extremely few and far between, relatively speaking.

--matt
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Old 02-19-2003, 05:29 PM   #22
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I fail to see how talking about your game disproves my statement that in 95% of muds (that is a rough estimate, obviously), time = success. There are a couple thousand muds in the world, and most of them are barely-altered stock code of the loot n' level variety run by idiots on a power trip. If you don't believe me, go to The Mud Connector and try picking random muds for awhile.

If you've taken stock code and altered it to make a better game, that's great, and I applaud you for it. I'm a little puzzled why you think I was attacking your game, in any case.
I was talking about the game I work/play on, because I know it well, and I wouldn't want to make sweeping, insulting statements about the work of others. That said, I've seen enough quality projects, large and small, that I think that your "95%" guess is unwarranted and misleading.
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Old 02-19-2003, 06:00 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Valg @ Feb. 19 2003,17:29)
[
I was talking about the game I work/play on, because I know it well, and I wouldn't want to make sweeping, insulting statements about the work of others.  That said, I've seen enough quality projects, large and small, that I think that your "95%" guess is unwarranted and misleading.
You seem pretty happy to make sweeping statements about games that offer upsells.

--matt
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Old 02-19-2003, 06:29 PM   #24
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That said, I've seen enough quality projects, large and small, that I think that your "95%" guess is unwarranted and misleading.
I don't know, in my experience that 95% estimate seems about right. Though, this is admittedly a bit of a subjective judgement.

"95% of everything is crap" =) Who's law is that anyways?

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Old 02-19-2003, 07:21 PM   #25
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Sods Law?

88.9% of statistics are made up on the spot.
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Old 02-19-2003, 07:36 PM   #26
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Why pay to play a mud?

There is plenty really good free ones that beat all pay to play muds...
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Old 02-19-2003, 08:08 PM   #27
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There is plenty really good free ones that beat all pay to play muds...
Plenty? Examples please =) I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to build up my collection of high quality muds.

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Sods Law?

88.9% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Heh =) So as a little emperical experiment, I started using MudConnect's 'connect to random mud' feature, and after the first 20 muds, I would say they are all crap, compared with the commercial and free muds listed both here and on the other p2p thread.  Obviously this is just a sampling, so as I visit more muds, the picture will become clearer.

In this case, my 'quick' definition of crap is I log in, and one or more of the following is true:  
[1] the title screen, character creation and login sequence completely is stock, or altered in minor ways.
[2] it immedietely plops me into stock mud school, and a quick 'help command' reveals that the help system is totally unaltered.  
[3] I do a 'who' and 'max online players for the day' lists '1'.
[4] the game uses any form of l33t speak  (in one case, the game automatically insulted for leaving in l33t speak).  This is obviously the most subjective of the criteria, but I prefer an 'adult game'

In any case, I'm working on the next 20 muds right now... With luck, I'll be able to break my streak.
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Old 02-19-2003, 10:48 PM   #28
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Wow, that amounts are really surprizing me. I thought there would be a lot less people who would pay to play. That's interesting. I've always gotten the impression that nobody really likes to pay except those who are really into MUDs like the one that happens to cost money.
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Old 02-19-2003, 11:55 PM   #29
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I have yet to find a totally free mud that offers what I consider to be truly a interesting variety of skills that make well-rounded non-combat RP characters viable.

I *do* like the sense of achievment that comes with some sort of mechanical advancement, be it levels or proficiency at a chosen set of skills, so MUSHes have never really held my interest.

The commercial graphical giants like AC/UO/EQ have the mechanics and workable economy that make merchants, miners, loggers, and other 'professions' viable. There are some commercial text muds that also provide this added dimension to mudding.

I think most adults are willing to pay for something that they truly are entertained by. You should not be surprised by the large number of folks who are willing to pay for play. What *should* be surprising is the number of players who seem to think of free muds as an entitlement. Sure I explore and play free muds; there are folks out there that aren't as interested in making a buck as they are doing what they do as a hobby.

As long as there are folks running free muds, I will gladly explore the ones that seem intersting to me; on the other hand, I do not dismiss P2P muds as 'bad'. I have played both P2P and 'free'. What keeps me playing isn't wether or not I have to pay for it, but wether or not I enjoy it. If I REALLY enjoy it, I am willing to pay a reasonable fee.
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:03 AM   #30
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I was intrigued by the idea of "different strokes for different blokes", and the more in-depth explanation done by someone (name eludes memory atm, sorry) that iluminates a good point in this discussion: rules, actions, and money in and of itself/themselves are just neutral tools for getting some kind of job done, whether it be to pay for a server, make a quick buck, get a good sword fast and therefore advance more quickly, or what-have-you.

However, what is done *with* the actions, rules, or money that truly defines them as 'good' or 'bad' (good and bad being, unfortunately, subjective enough statements to further get me into murky territory). The end result, however, is usually acceptable to those who are in the thick of the problem, and (usually) unacceptable to the bystanders. For instance, I've never played a pay-to-play MUD, and before today I considered them all worthless crap not worthy of any attention. I haven't changed my resolve not to pay to play a MUD; however, I can see why paying for play, equipment, or bonuses may not necessarily be an all-empowering ability that makes the game completely unfair.

Example: I pay 300 USD and get myself a really nice set of equipment for my character. I spend another 2 weeks beating up every MOB I find, and level myself quickly. Other people in the game, (most likely more experienced veterans than myself) see that I've taken a bit too much advantage of my excessive income (chuckle, I wish), and team up 10 to 1, kill me, loot my corpse, and I'm back to almost square one.

Even if they couldn't kill me, they'd just ignore me. Never group with me, recall whenever I came by, and never respond to any of my comments. That, in and of itself, would drive most people from a game within a few months.

So hey...why worry? If virtue is a valued attribute in a game, virtue will be upheld whether or not an administration or group of players decides to agree with it or not. The people really do rule in this kind of environment; it's more of a democracy than admins really want to admit. So RP is you like it, PK if you like it, give me money if you like it, and I'll let my players deal with you afterwards.

-Visko
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