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Old 04-05-2003, 08:28 PM   #1
Jaewyn
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It seems D&D that so many muds are based on is bad for you. According to this anyways... each to their own I guess.

http://logosresourcepages.org/dnd-ovr.html
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Old 04-05-2003, 10:07 PM   #2
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Somehow, I see this becomming a long thread.

As background, I am 31. I started playing D&D in the 3rd grade, and quit somewhere in college. I quit for the reason that most people do....got married, had children, and my parents held a garage sale and poof.....there went my extensive collection of books, modules, dice, and character sheets.

Of course, I got out of fishing, hunting, and a host of other things for the exact same reasons.

Now, I MUD. But I am also a Sunday School teacher, and a deacon in my church. I hold God and his Word above anything else in life.

That said, I think the guy in the article is a nut. But a nut I can relate to.

Most of us who MUD know what it is like to 'jones' for your character even when you are not playing. We know what it is like to get mad at a school buddy because he toasted your character. We've stayed up playing till the sun came up, neglecting homework and chores. We've sat at work and plotted our next Pkill or sat and mused on how we wanted to get a "Deck of Many Things" or "Rod of Lordly Might".

There comes a point when you need to draw a line. For me, D&D, heavy metal music, violent Commadore 64 games, stone washed blue jeans and girls pretty much made up my mentality throughout the 80s. But I had enough grounding in God, Counrty, Family, and Friends to lead a solid life. Never killed anyone, or got arrested. Never had the thoughts to.

Personally, the Hours and hours spent hiding in a garage, an attic, a basement......playing D&D, Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Car Wars, or whatever....pretty much kept me outta real trouble. The money spent on game books blew any funds for dope or booze. Go figure.

Here's the kicker....add religion...the Bible does say that all forms of sorcery are evil. Is casting an imaginery fireball at an imaginary cave troll sorcery? Depends on where you draw the line. Most forms or western religions are against drugs...yet only the Mormans eschew coffee & cafinated products. For them, thats the line.

If the Bible proclaims sorcery as evil....that at least tells you that there is a such thing. But the writter also claims that anything that draws you away from God is of the Devil. Interesting statement. I think it gives too much credit to the devil. What about golfing and fishing? How many zillions of folks will never hear a Sunday sermon due to their 'addiction' to a sunday round of 18 holes? Personally, I was raised as a Catholic. My rigerious Irish-Catholic rearing is probabily what kept my life in line through some tough times, but now that I have actually read the Bible, I'd have to put the Catholic church in a worse pile than D&D or golf (as far as things that keep you from God).

(aside....no ill intended by that)

I guess the best rule is: you are what you eat. What you expose yourself to is what will fill your mind. You work in a dentist office 10 hours a day....you will prolly be less likely to cuss and curse that someone who works on a construction crew at a refinery. You won't think like Samuel F. Jackson or Harvey Kietel when you get cut off in traffic if the only TV you see is Mr. Rogers.

Come to think of it....wasn't Rev. Fred Rogers into "make believe"?

Maybe the author of the article needed to draw a line in his fantacy world too........when you capture the orc chieftan, you don't have to murder, rape and drink his blood.....you can turn him into the local millitia.

For the author, D&D was probabily the thing that warped him...At least on the surface...the real issue was something deeper.

Keep the main thing the main thing.
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Old 04-06-2003, 12:18 AM   #3
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Out of curiosity, can you quote from the bible where it says that sorcery is forbidden?
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Old 04-06-2003, 12:38 AM   #4
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Leviticus 19
26 " 'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
" 'Do not practice divination or sorcery.

Deuteronomy 18
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [1] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Deuteronomy 18

The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

2 Kings 17
17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in [1] the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger.

2 Kings 21
6 He sacrificed his own son in [1] the fire, practiced sorcery and divination, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger.

2 Chronicles 33
6 He sacrificed his sons in [1] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger.

From your local neighbourhood unothodox christian,

James Meyer
aka Aldyn, Creator and Founder of Aeledius
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Old 04-06-2003, 01:37 AM   #5
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What he said........

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Old 04-06-2003, 07:12 AM   #6
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There is a lot I really want to say, but shouldn't... so I won't.
36-48 hours creating a world and some material for sessions? I have a DM that can improv a world like it was easy as riding a bike. I seriously can't take that guy seriously at all.. I mean his sources tell him Yoga is occult? Seriously come on. (I know I use the word seriously a lot, sorry.)
About the closest our games come to existing in our reality time is when we call each other by our characters' names some times, usually by accident.
*sigh*

Dice-rolling, role-playing, mudding heathen and proud of it.
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:49 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
It seems D&D that so many muds are based on is bad for you. According to this anyways... each to their own I guess.
Darren Molitor's essay?  I wouldn't pay it too much attention - read here:

http://ptgptb.org/0004/hist4.html

In particular:

"What was most frightening about this incident was that BADD was also able to convince Molitor of the game's control over his actions. Under this belief, Molitor penned a damning essay blaming D&D for his crime, which was then widely disseminated by BADD. Later, Molitor stated that he was under a lot of stress and "completely in confusion" when he wrote the essay, and hence "may have gone overboard". He added "I no longer feel the game is dangerous for everyone". This brainwashing of a person under great stress for their own propaganda purposes demonstrates the dangerous extent of BADD's tactics.

BADD's propoganda had raised the interest of many. After BADD petitioned the Safety Commision, the Game Manufacturing Association (GAMA) carried out their own studies, as did many independent researchers. In 1987, Armando Simo'n published the first paper on the psychological status of role-players, and many more followed. Every case of D&D-inspired crime or suicide that BADD listed were thoroughly investigated and no culpability of the game was found.

GAMA also commissioned Michael Stackpole to investigate BADD and Pulling. In 1990, he released his now-famous Pulling Report, which exposed the spurious and manipulative methods used by BADD. This led to the discrediting of BADD, and the group dissappeared. The Comittee for the Advancement of RPGs (CAR-PGa) was formed to work against the defamation of the hobby.
"
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:50 AM   #8
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When some ignorant fool does something stupid like shooting up a school, murdering their family, etc... when it's an adult they claim he was mentally ill... when it is a child or teen the immediate reaction is to blame whatever they'd been doing. Music, games, movies, television... anything to avoid taking personal responsibility for being too wrapped up in their own lives to notice (or care) what was going on.

Did anyone ever stop to consider that the mindset of that person is what LEAD them to participate in these activities so many try to claim are evil? No, it's much easier to shirk personal responsibility and simply blame the media they were involved in. It's not like the Bible hasn't lead people to make some boneheaded decisions. Spanish inquisition anyone?

When people talk about someone killing themselves due to the game they were playing... they never stopped to consider maybe that game staved off them taking such a drastic measure. They're angry with themselves because they didn't pay enough attention to what was going on in that person's life, and instead of taking responsibility for not noticing, they would rather blame someone else. It helps their conscience. It saves them from the realization that they might have been able to stop this person from taking the route they did... that they, at least in their own minds, might be partially to blame for not being able to stop it.

I'm not saying that they SHOULD feel guilty, by any means. I'm saying that the natural reaction is to feel guilty, and the natural reaction to feeling guilty is to blame someone else. If someone else is to blame you can be angry at someone else, instead of being angry at yourself. It gives you a solid, tangible target for your anger and rage.

This issue comes down to personal responsibility for ones actions... our society as a whole has been looking for ways to shirk that responsibility. People suing fast food restaurants because they over indulged themselves and it made them fat... the fast food restaurant didn't open your mouth and slam back fourty burgers a day and a big gulp the size of your upper body. So, why sue them? To avoid personal responsibility.

But, tha above is just my opinion... and one I've thought long and hard on. Life is about choices. You make your own choices. Everything in life influences those decisions... even the wind.

You go out on a sunday morning, planning to fly a kite with your son. There is no wind. You decide to stay in. He starts crying. This goes on for a while, you felt sorry for him. He keeps ON crying. He doesn't stop. You start to get angry. You decide to take him to get ice cream. The engine in your car won't turn over. He gets louder. Your spouse comes home, after a bad day at work. (Sh/H)e promised to do the dishes. Instead (sh/h)e asks you to do it instead. You, trying to help out, start to do the dishes. Your son still crying about the kite and ice cream is sitting in the kitchen, still crying. You start dropping dishes. You yell at him to go to his room. He gets up, and trips... he falls into the plates, and gets cut very badly. Did he bleed to death? I'll leave that up to you. But, it is all because of the wind.

That's simply the way things are. It's all about choices and reactions.

I don't remember who it was that originally penned this... I used it on my MUD's greeting for several years, though... I leave you with this thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of the shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of the horse, the knight was lost;
For want of the knight, the battle was lost;
For want of the battle, the kingdom was lost;
And thus it was, all was lost... for the want of a nail...
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Old 04-06-2003, 02:49 PM   #9
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People are all in all very bad at finding the root cause of any situation. It is simpler to apply known patterns, than find the real ones. Since someone brought up to believe with absolute certainty in something written on a page starts off with a set of patterns and spends their lives trying to bend everything they learn to fit that, you get people who have a firm grasp of how the word 'should' work according to the rules, but no clue about how the real world works.

As an example from this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.
Ok... We have spent twenty years or more doing intensive scientific tests to see if anything resembling sorcery or divination actually works. The result has been these finding:

1. There are a lot of people that think they can do things, but can't.

2. There are even more people that are both gullable enough and seeking some one shot 'cure' for a problem, than there are practitioners.

3. The closest anyone has come, despite a 10 million dollar reward offered by The Amazing Randy to 'prove' to him that someone actually can do anything, are people working in the field of quantum physics who have been doing some pretty wierd things. However, they don't make up stuff that defies the laws of nature, just play with slightly different ones.

All in all, to cover both sorcery and divination you would need an extra commandment. 'Thou shalt not murder' and 'Thou shalt not steal' cover parts of what these people do, but you also need one that says, 'Thou shalt not delude yourself or a neighbor into believing something that isn't real'. Unfortunately... various relegions make it a point to do exactly that, which for those that believe it is all made up anyway, would tend to explain why there where only ten commandments.

But seriously, these quotes come to mind:

"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something;
in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be
satisfied with bd ones" - Bertrand Russell

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick

As for the one who wrote the article that prompted this thread.. I would suggest:

"The proverb warns that, 'You should not bite the hand
that feeds you.' But maybe you should, if it prevents
you from feeding yourself." - Thomas Szasz

But I doubt they would get the meaning. lol
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Old 04-06-2003, 02:55 PM   #10
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Actually... This one seems even more appropriate:

"Verifiable knowledge makes its way slowly, and
only under cultivation. But fable has burrs and feet
and claws and wings and an indestructable sheath
like weed-seed, and can be carried almost
anywhere and takes root without benefit of soil
or water." - Wallace Stegner

Think that pretty much covers every article, news report or fabrication ever brought against any game, music, etc.
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Old 04-06-2003, 06:23 PM   #11
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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

I won't go in to how I figure this is actually the most appropriate of all. Suffice it to say that it has alot to do with my take on the origins of life on Earth and my interpretations on the prohibitions against "sorcery" in the same context
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Old 04-07-2003, 07:39 AM   #12
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Just for the record, I didn't make the original post because I agree with the article.  Quite the opposite actually, I just couldn't believe someone would blame a game, (D&D) for such actions.  Having read some of the posts, I see it makes perfect sense, people are always trying to blame someone/something else for their own shortcomings.

If people have trouble telling the difference between fantasy and reality then as far as I can tell it is them that is the problem, not the game/music or whatever.

I found it quite ironic that BADD turned out to be nothing but a bunch of mind manipulators, exactly what claim D&D is guilty of doing.  It seems if you were to follow the thinking of BADD, someone like Stephen King, (the author) would be a mass murderer.
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Old 04-07-2003, 05:13 PM   #13
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Yeah, the real fun is with stuff like that new game they are adventising, where they say 'Civilization is only skin deep.' Aside from the minor irony of how true that statement can sometimes be, I love the idea that playing a game like that 4-5 hours a day could 'turn someone into a killer', but if you spend 4-5 hours a day actually learning how to hurt people in a Dojo with martial arts, that is OK and somehow doesn't have the same effect. Huh?!? lol

I think if these people are so worried about the posibility that someone mught lose their grasp on reality, they need to start looking closer to home.
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Old 05-07-2003, 08:35 AM   #14
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http://www.infidels.org/library....s.shtml

It's always nice to **** of a few fundamentalist christians this way. Don't provoke the normal ones though; like everyone else, they got the right to believe what they want and if they want to believe it, fine with me. Just pick on those who condemn everything in the name of their "God" and who refer to the bible as explanation.
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Old 05-07-2003, 09:28 AM   #15
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As far as the Spanish Inquisition goes, and the Crusades as well (those always get thrown into any discussion of this sort), both were primarily products of Catholic Church doctrine rather than Biblical backing. In particular, any and every doctrine against Jews as "Christ-killers" is contrary to the book of Hebrews and other passages regarding the permanence of God's covenant with Israel.

I see the term Fundamentalist crop up again. It's a popular derisive term to throw around, but the actual definition of it is one who believes in the "fundamentals" of the Christian faith, which most professing Christians do. Such as: the creation of the universe by God, the virgin birth, Christ's death and resurrection, the need for that for salvation from sins, the sinfulness of man, the Bible as God's Word. Pretty basic Christian beliefs. The term just got a lot of bad press by being applied in a derogatory fashion.

As far as luring away from God, I'll take the golf someone mentioned. If you're on the golf course every Sunday instead of in church, it's luring you away from God. That doesn't make it inherently evil, but that does make it a problem for you personally.

I'd add one other thing for the Christians on the board (the non-Christians won't care of course). The Bible does say not to cause your brother to sin, and that if you *believe* something to be a sin, it's a sin for you. If you're choosing to do something you believe is a sin, that willful choice is sinful even if the action itself is not. So if you have Christian friends who can't in good conscience play the games you do, don't belittle them or try to bring them into it against their conscience.
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Old 05-07-2003, 06:03 PM   #16
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As far as luring away from God, I'll take the golf someone mentioned. If you're on the golf course every Sunday instead of in church, it's luring you away from God.
Unless you believe Proverbs 15:3 :: New International Version (NIV) which states "The eyes of the LORD are everywhere", or Jeremiah 16:17 :: New International Version (NIV) which states "My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me", or Jeremiah 23:24-25 :: New International Version (NIV) which states 'Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?' declares the LORD. 'Do not I fill heaven and earth?' declares the LORD ." or Hebrews 4:13 :: New International Version (NIV) which states "Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

Or maybe omniscience doesn't extend to golf courses?
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Old 05-07-2003, 06:46 PM   #17
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If that were so, then wouldn't an atheist be just as "close" to God as a die-hard Christian? The point was stretching more towards it takes your mind/heart away from God, not that He's everywhere in the physical sense. If you love playing golf more than going to church to worship and learn about the Christian religion then it is a problem for that Christian, as Nichibotsu stated.

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Old 05-07-2003, 10:45 PM   #18
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Right.... The problem with the entire theory of haviong to listen to someone else or read some book or believe some thing to know truth is patently rediculous. I know quite a lot of people that go to church every sunday, read the bible and go out of their way to try to follow the 'right' path and only end up being the most narrow minded, inflexable and emotionally destructive people to those around them of anyone I have ever met. Stapling a cross to a building doesn't make it sacred any more than sitting in a pew mouthing latin and praying for someone else to guide you to making the right choices qualifies as worship. Anyone that believes that these things has already lost their way and is, due to the nature of the fabrication instituted by the very first such church that such things do have meaning, nearly impossible to escape. After all, for 90% of christians, buildings, crosses and scripture 'is' faith and to question the sanctity of such is for them to abandon faith. Sadly to avoid this fiction they all to often instead abandon reason.
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Old 05-07-2003, 11:29 PM   #19
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You're far beyond the point I was trying to make so let me steer it back a little. When did I outline this entire "theory" anyway? I never said having someone else read scripture to you was worship. I never said going to a church building is worship. I never said crosses, Bibles, or anything else make you holier or closer to God.

I was merely responding to the golfing/church example. Golf representing something that can lead you away from God, and going to church on Sunday representing getting closer. There are countless examples we could come up with for "getting closer" or "being lured away" but why bother?

In short, don't put words in my mouth.  

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