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Old 08-11-2005, 03:00 PM   #21
Kinnith
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I really and honestly didnt want to get into this thread, but
I keep reading about how someone is working around code.

Now, from what I understand, if you have higher level
equipment and or items on your player, and that said
player is a lower level than said item, they have a chance
to lose that item on logout.

Now, there are also commands to allow said player to drop
and or hide these items, to either give away, and or re-gain
at a later time (If this isnt the reason for the commands then
why have them?).

Being that anyone can obtain said items, just finding them
is the key, it is almost equaly random to lose said equipment
and or items, be it from dropping/hidding them to keeping
them on your player.

As to working around the code, as many of you have stated,
perhaps a re-tooling of the commands to hide and or "dig"
(as it has been called) should be made so that lower level
players can not hide or "dig" spots to hold equipment and
items at a higher level than their current player level.

I will agree that the player in question that started this fourm
thread in fact did share the knowledge of where items are in
generaly kept hidden, and this _could_ be considered a form
of Multi-Playing (by sharing gained knowledge); Then how is
the Said Alt to find equipment and items IC?

You cant expect a player of say five years to act like a
complete new player, and throw basic item locations out
the window as if it never existed.

If you dont want to add restrictions onto the ability to hide
and or drop items, then limit the player to only have one
char.

These of course are of my own thoughts.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:17 PM   #22
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Hmmm, I am not really understanding the question you are asking, Kinnith.

There is code in the game for burying something. Be that the corpse of your fallen enemy, a piece of equipment you don't want to meet someone in person to give them, or the fabulous forty copper pieces you just collected. People even bury equipment in the case that they are going into a situation where they think they will likely die.

But there is a distinction between these things, which are all IC reasons for burying things, and the knowledge that "if I bury this, then the items which are truly too high-level for me to hold on to will NOT repop on the mobs which usually hold them (and which I am not currently strong enough to defeat), but will still be available for me to get, since I'm burying them in this difficult to reach and out of the way place before I log off and trigger this code feature".

This is an OOC response to code, not an IC response to IC pressures of the game. It is clearly the game designer's intent that a very young character be allowed to use the most powerful armor in the game, and also that the same character doesn't have much chance to hang on to it for long. The code supports that. This player is trying to thwart it by doing something that, as has been pointed out by others on this thread, there aren't good IC reasons to do.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:56 PM   #23
Kinnith
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Starling, if you want to talk about IC reason to do this as
a lower level player, burying high level equipment and
or items, there is quite a very vaild reason to do so.

So that they dont lose them. For every OOC action
there is almost always an IC action.

For Example:

OOC - When you log off, you have a chance to lose your
equipment or items that are of a higher level than
your current player.

IC - During the night, thiefs have been known to raid
players that can not hold onto powerful items.

Each way there is a reason and action to do such.

Hiding equipment and or Items to keep them, is not as
completely OOC as you might state.

While hiding a piece of equipment to give to an alt, is 100 percent OOC, hiding a piece of equipment so that the "thieves"
cant take said equipment or item when the player leaves is
IC, as to prevent it from happening.

IC I would bury all of my higher level items, untill the next
time I came back, I would take them again, and wear them,
so that the thieves would have nothing to take from me. But
at the same time, what if someone finds my hidden spot?

OOC would be, hey I dont want to lose these items so ill
just hide them.

Pretty much the OOC and IC reasons are the same, but just
put into another light. If the game doesnt wish to have players
doing this to keep equipment or items, they shouldnt allow it;
Because it can be both done in the OOC and IC sense.

Oh and the question I was asking is, in the basic form.

If you are not allowed to hide/bury items to get at a later
time, why are you allowed to do it at all? Are Players at
the same level as the equipment or item allowed to do this?

Allowing a lower level player to use a higher level equipment
or item, and then not allowing them a means to keep it, and
or denying them the means, is pointless to have them be able
to do it.
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:34 PM   #24
Starling
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I have played on a mud where if an item was too high-level for you, you were simply not able to touch it. The point of allowing low-level characters to use whatever they pick up or find or are given, so far as I can tell (and I'm just a player, not an IMM) is that the character can enjoy items they find or are given, while still making sure that that same character (who could be a true newbie to the mud) isn't targeted for killing because of their elite equipment.

Now, if I bury my equipment and walk away, and attack a character I am pretty sure will kill me, then come back later to collect my equipment... no code is particularly involved in that. There is no code I am deliberately avoiding in order to keep my equipment. It is essentially the same as giving it to a friend, though likely less safe, so long as I stay logged in.

But if I bury equipment in order to be able to AVOID the code that is intended to return that equipment into the general population, then I am abusing code, because I'm exploiting a known loophole in it. It's not possible, or at least practical, to code a mud to prevent every abuse. That's why rules exist.

I am also by my actions creating a situation where new characters will be killed for their equipment, because the amount of any type of equipment is limited. If the behavior described were practiced by all, then the entire protection the "thieves" ironically provided to newbies would be lost.

And if it should not be practiced by all, then those who practice it are gaining an unearned advantage, simply because of their knowledge of this loophole in code.
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:49 AM   #25
Kinnith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Now, if I bury my equipment and walk away, and attack a character I am pretty sure will kill me, then come back later to collect my equipment... no code is particularly involved in that.  There is no code I am deliberately avoiding in order to keep my equipment.  It is essentially the same as giving it to a friend, though likely less safe, so long as I stay logged in.
Im done talking with you in this thread, What you just stated
right there, is exactly what the thread starter did. While he is
not the same level as the equipment or items, its what he did.

What if he had a "friend" hold it? Would that be another case?
You would more than likely say so, as to that "friend" would
more than likely be able to hold onto said equipment and
items without worry of it being taken.

Oh, and having a friend hold said items or equipment when
you go to fight another player, Or if you bury or hide them, that you know will more than likely kill you, is quite working
around the code, unless your game does not belive in player looting.

Please enjoy viewing the game from the current angle, of
a one sided looking glass; That only bends when you see
fit to allow it.
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Old 08-12-2005, 01:45 AM   #26
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Hmmm, you're taking this very personally, when it's not intended so. I have no objection to people giving their equipment to others to hold, because that doesn't effectively remove it from the game. If you have a friend of much higher level than you, who consistently lends you items to use while you're in the game, lucky you. I wouldn't consider that cheating, so you're wrong about me and my outlook on the mud. In the end, though, what I think is cheating doesn't matter, even if 90 percent of the people I've talked to from the mud agree that it's cheating as well.

If you think the situation described is all good and doesn't constitute abuse of code, that's certainly your prerogative. I see it differently, and clearly the IMMstaff on Shattered Kingdoms, the final word on the subject, sees it differently as well.
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:27 AM   #27
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Directed to address this thread by others, since I myself am no longer an active TMS forum visitor --

As an Immortal on SK, I only wish to state that this player did not follow the procedures of complaint - neither raising this issue either with more senior immortals, the implementor nor did he initiate discussion on our own website-forum regarding the topic.  

We welcome any new players to our game and should anyone wish to ask questions of our rules and how we implement them, we have both a newbie forum and a gameplay forum as well as contact emails for all staff within the game.  We're in the TMS database of course, hovering between positions 10 and 30, so if you're interested you can find us - I won't spam the URL here.

In closing, thanks to TMS for your service to the MUD community - not enough people recognise the real value of your what you guys do.

[edit addendum: posted in an unofficial capacity; I am not the public spokesperson for SK; merely presenting a point of view on this topic]
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:40 AM   #28
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Sorry, I sent this log and my complaint about the matter, including the fact that the immortal involved then gave every piece of equipment confiscated (ICly) to the high follower of his own faith, who I have reason to believe is an ooc friend of his (they used to play characters together) directly to the implementor, who then proceeded to do nothing about the incident.

Sorry that you seem to be totally misinformed, gth. I only wish that you weren't.

Oh, and as for the website - your own - in question, the immortal in charge of confiscating the equipment I'd found is also the main moderator on the shattered kingdoms forums. It's a pretty good gig he's got going for himself.
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Old 08-12-2005, 05:19 PM   #29
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You still don't get it..."finding" equipment isn't the issue.  You didn't "find" it, you knew it was there because you had a high-level character who belonged in the clan where the equipment was buried, & knew that fellow clan members buried equipment there.  So you used clan knowledge known to your high-level char to have your lowbie alt help himself to some high-lvl equipment.  That is cheating, you bonehead, and as stated by myself & other posters, the IMM was merciful in only taking away the equipment, & not deleting your butt!  As far as your claim re the IMM giving away the equipment, who cares, they own the MUD, & if they decide to turn the equipment into butterflies & have them fly out some mob's butt, so be it.  If you don't like it, walk.  I'm sure nobody on that MUD is gonna miss you...

(In case some of you are confused reading this , this post was in response to a question Jardek posed to me in his previous post that he has since edited out... He asked me if I thought finding equipment was cheating, then what about the IMM giving away the confiscated equipment to his personal friends on the MUD.)
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:18 PM   #30
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A small excerpt from one of our own helpfiles:

"In fact, if you *ever* have a problem with any immortal write a note about it to the implementors, and we will investigate the situation and punish as necessary. If one of the implementors was the problem, then write about it to the others, of course. If you have a problem with all of the implementors, then you'd probably be happier finding another MUD to play on."

Jardek, you clearly don't like how this game enforces their rules.  We get that.  However, no one on these forums knows enough about the context, precedence, etc. to make an informed decision about how that game should enforce its own rules.  More importantly, none of us can do anything about the decision.  If the senior staff of that game sides with their staff member's decision on this case, that's their right.  You can vote with your feet and leave, or you can accept their decision and continue to play there(*).  But complaining on the TMS "Advertising For Players" forum is neither productive nor appropriate.

Knock it off.

(*) If they let you.  Whether or not you're correct, no MUD is forced to accept you as a customer.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:25 PM   #31
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As I said, forty players a day and myself already have
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jardek @ Aug. 12 2005,23:25)
As I said, forty players a day and myself already have
Sounds more to me like the World of Warcraft effect hitting Shattered Kingdoms.

Most trolls grossly overexaggerate the effect of their departure, as well as the degree to which other people agree.
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