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Old 08-13-2007, 02:57 PM   #1
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Posts undeleted

I'd like to thank Xerihae for restoring the deleted posts
in the thread:
http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ne...er-noobed.html

I can see that the intent was good, and I'm delighted that
everything worked out.

-Crat
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:08 PM   #2
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Re: Posts undeleted

Indeed. I know the tenor and the bickering in the posts didn't exactly scream "This is a fantastic tool for helping newbies," but it's good to keep the thread alive for posterity's sake, I think.

I was reminded, if nothing else, that text doesn't convey mood well all the time (and that some people can jump to conclusions that I'm just being a jerk, when in fact I'm just not being a huggybear - there IS a difference ).

Ask anyone on the jointhesaga.com games: When I want to come across as a hard-nose, I come across as a hard-nose. There's no maybe about it. I really WAS showing some restraint in responding to that thread.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:09 PM   #3
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Re: Posts undeleted

The whole incident just confirms what we'd established in another thread last week - that we need more help here for people completely new to MUDs.

Can only solve one thing at a time however and right now the most frustrated group of TMS users are MUD owners trying to navigate the MUDinfo/voting databases and flaky links between the two.
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:12 AM   #4
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Re: Posts undeleted

The impression I get is that people aren't overly concerned (myself included) when it comes to helping newbies, unless of course it's their own mud the newbie wants to connect to.

I'd reconstruct what happened as following:

1) Newbie wants to play a mud.
2) Newbie fails because the website isn't working.
3) Newbie googles for info but being a newbie he fails.
4) Newbie googles for newbie mud help and finds TMS.
5) Newbie bothers to create an account and posts a message.
6) Newbie sees a lot of people view his message but do not bother to respond.
7) Newbie gives a shout out
8) Newbie is told he's impatient and is told to google it up.
9) Newbie gets ****ed. (see 3 and 4)
10) Newbie gets a link to the broken website. (see 2)
11) Newbie gets even more ****ed. (see 9)

This all could be avoided if people actually try to be helpful and do not assume total and utter incompetence on the side of the newbie.

Since I have nothing better to do I give a reconstruction of the possible existence of a Good Scandum:

1) Good Scandum sees a newbie who needs help.
2) Good Scandum googles up the webpage and tries to connect.
3) Good Scandum double checks the telnet addy on TIC using a proxy to bypass his ban.
4) Good Scandum posts a reply giving the correct addy of the mud.
5) Evil Scandum takes over and adds to the reply that the newbie should use tintin++ to connect because all other means to connect suck.
6) Newbie thanks Good Scandum and Evil Scandum for their lovely advise and quick help.

Last edited by scandum : 08-14-2007 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:26 AM   #5
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Re: Posts undeleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
The impression I get is that people aren't overly concerned (myself included) when it comes to helping newbies, unless of course it's their own mud the newbie wants to connect to.

I'd reconstruct what happened as following:

1) Newbie wants to play a mud. (etc.)
There's only one thing wrong with your reconstruction of this specific situation, though: That's not at all how it happened. If we had a post from a newbie who had exhausted every avenue before posting, I don't think it would have been received in quite the same way. Instead, it went something more like this:

1) Newbie wants to play a MUD. Posts a vague how-do-I-do-it question on TMS.
2) Newbie doesn't get an immediate response. Posts a bit of a whine about that.
3) Newbie still doesn't get an immediate response. Posts ANOTHER complaint.
4) Brody (neither good nor bad, just Brody) happens upon the thread. Yeah, Brody's a tad irritated by the impatient textual jumping up and down of said newbie, but Brody doesn't unload on the guy. Brody first tries to explain the local standards a bit, just in case the newbie hasn't really used forums much before. And then Brody suggests Googling for the MUD website.
5) Newbie makes a post suggesting the Brody post isn't helpful.
6) Brody, so far the only person even trying to help the newbie, reiterates that he's trying to help.
7) Newbie calls Brody a jerkoff.
8) Brody, despite being called a jerkoff, investigates the MUD website and determines that said MUD appears to be broken or, at the very least, has bad information on its main site.
9) Some people post to say it's wrong to call Brody a jerkoff.
10) Some people post to say it's true, Brody's a jerk.
11) Thread is off the rails.

I don't care much for the suggestion that all sweetness and congeniality must flow first from us. It may sound a little snobbish, but I don't react well to people who are clearly 1) impatient and 2) rude about their impatience, as if they're entitled to something from a total stranger just for existing.

It goes both ways.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:04 AM   #6
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Re: Posts undeleted

New players/mudders/forum visitors often get frustrated when they don't get an immediate answer to their question, especially if it's on a forum such as this where, let's be honest, a lot of people don't read that Newbie section. As they're new here, how are they supposed to know that though? You go on other forums and replies to topics are flying around every couple of minutes, whereas here it can take a few hours to get the answer you want. Is it their fault if their expectations of this forum are a little high because of their experience elsewhere? You could argue it is and it isn't. At the end of the day though, the Newbie Help section exists to help newbies. If you cannot be bothered to do this in a courteous and verbose manner then you shouldn't really be trying to help. One of my own personal bugbears is people who reply with things like "RTFM" or "Use search n00b". Yes, doing one of those things can often bring some answers, but it can also often bring a whole load of useless information that the person just doesn't want or have time to wade through. People post topics because they know there are people on a forum who will answer the same question a thousand times over without a gripe, the sort of people who make excellent greeters in supermarkets or newbie helpers on MUDs.

To address a few criticisms I seem to have received via reputation:

"I still don't see what the problem with Brody's OP was"

The problem was in the perceived tone of the reply. Brody has kindly clarified what he meant and admitted, as we all know, that text is terrible at conveying emotions and the nuances of speech which make the difference between a rude answer and an informative one. I myself read Brodys original post as somewhat curt and borderline insulting, so is it hardly surprising that the original poster did? Yes, we now know that he didn't mean it that way, but the benefits of hindsight etc etc.

"Horrid moderation." and "totally over the top and unnecessary. noob admin behavior."

As for those, well, where to start? The topic was a thread about how to connect to a MUD that due to what we now know was a misunderstanding ended up being mostly full of replies to do with the argument rather than the question. I removed these. I didn't know this particular forum software would leave behind stubs, otherwise it would have read a lot better. Too many topics on here and other forums wander off on a complete tangent or descend into petty arguments between regulars, and I saw no reason to allow that to happen here. Again, all I did was remove the posts that caused or continued the argument, and left the informative, neutral-or-friendly toned ones that answered the original question. You might not be used to this kind of moderation, which in many other places is considered the norm, but that is down to your expectations alone. It's not the first time I've removed posts that were just arguments in a thread on the Newbie Help section, but it's the first time I've come across a complaint.

I don't really care what reputation you give me to be fair, but I always feel it's nice to have an open discussion about problems as long as it's in the correct place. This thread, for instance, I feel is the correct place to discuss this. The topic I removed posts from was not the place to have that particular argument.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:10 AM   #7
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Re: Posts undeleted

I, on the other hand, think that we can spare ourselves typing the same answers over and over again because I do think our time is valuable. If we can point newbies to resources that are more in line with what they need (such as information about how to log in to a specific MUD, as opposed to how to get involved in MUDs in general), I don't see why that has to be dressed up with long-winded rhetoric to make sure it's clear we mean no harm.

If I say: "Use Google to track down the Dawn of Ages website" - well, that should be taken to mean "Use Google to track down the Dawn of Ages website" before it's taken to mean "Use search, n00b." I refuse to be responsible for the inferences other people make based on their own prejudices
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:22 AM   #8
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Re: Posts undeleted

I should have been more clear. I didn't have an issue with your suggestion to use Google, just the first point about it being a forum not a chatroom was, to me, put across in a somewhat abrupt manner that could be construed as rude. You and the people who know you on here understand you didn't mean it that way, but as someone who doesn't know you (or pretty much anyone on here) I didn't and it's not unreasonable to assume that others would take exception to it too.

Saying "It's not my fault what they infer" isn't really much of a defence... As a poster on the Newbie Help section you should always keep in mind that a friendly front to new members is needed and try to avoid posting things that may be misunderstood so people don't get the wrong impression or misconstrue what you meant. At least that's my take on things. That's not so hard is it?
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:28 AM   #9
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Re: Posts undeleted

Telling an impatient newbie this isn't a chat room and not to expect immediate responses isn't rude. Good heavens, are we supposed to assume people like that are merely Very Special Olympians and pat them on the head?

The fact that you're suggesting I *need* a defense for what I said points to some pre-established notions on your part about what I intended, and I maintain that I'm not responsible for your inferences (or anyone else's) in that regard.

Why we're having a discussion about how nice I should have been as opposed to how the newbie could have been a little less of a spaz is a bit surprising to me. I tried to help and got called a jerkoff by the newbie and, effectively, by at least two veteran forumgoers (including you, by implication).

What message does it send to people who want to help when their words are taken out of context in this fashion?

I daresay it's not any better than what you're suggesting I did through my "terse" (yet oddly not at all insulting) reply.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:38 AM   #10
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Re: Posts undeleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brody View Post
Telling an impatient newbie this isn't a chat room and not to expect immediate responses isn't rude. Good heavens, are we supposed to assume people like that are merely Very Special Olympians and pat them on the head?
Phrased the right way, no it isn't. I maintain that the phrasing you used could, and was, misunderstood. This led to an argument which had little bearing on the original question.

Quote:
The fact that you're suggesting I *need* a defense for what I said points to some pre-established notions on your part about what I intended, and I maintain that I'm not responsible for your inferences (or anyone else's) in that regard.
Defense was probably a poor choice of words... Easily done isn't it? I had no pre-established notions of what you intended with that post, though my view of it I've already stated.

Quote:
Why we're having a discussion about how nice I should have been as opposed to how the newbie could have been a little less of a spaz is a bit surprising to me. I tried to help and got called a jerkoff by the newbie and, effectively, by at least two veteran forumgoers (including you, by implication).
The newbie could have been a little more patient, a little less abrupt, a little more understanding etc etc. The reason we're discussing your reply is because he has yet to contribute to this thread and so rebuffing him seems a little pointless. I should make clear that yours was not the sole post that caused me to prune the thread, as others (including the OP) posted things later on that continued the argument. For some reason we've become locked on the issue of yours though, perhaps because you're the only one willing to discuss/argue it? I also have no feelings as to whether you're a jerkoff or not, I simply felt that your post, along with the others, had no real place in the thread. Whether your original post or the newbies reply started the war has little real bearing on the outcome, I was just trying to point out how yours could have been misunderstood since obviously you didn't think there was anything wrong with it because you knew the original intention behind it.

Quote:
What message does it send to people who want to help when their words are taken out of context in this fashion?
If anything can be learned from this it should be that a few extra words and a different turn of phrase go a long to towards avoiding these kinds of misunderstandings.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:41 AM   #11
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Re: Posts undeleted

I think I'll just agree to disagree on this. You're the Newbie Help forum moderator and you can run it your way. I'll reserve my newbie helping for other arenas to avoid the problem and leave it to you. Should avoid any further problems about clarity.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:45 AM   #12
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Re: Posts undeleted

I'm not particularly interested in "running it my way" and you can continue to post there as much as you want. I'm a moderator, not an admin. It's my job, as far as I've always understood it, to keep threads on track and remove posts that have no bearing to the original question. In this case, with this forum software, it left a bunch of stubs that made the thing look horrible and unreadable. If it hadn't, all that would have remained would be the original question and a bunch of answers to it, without the name calling. Surely that's the whole point?
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:44 AM   #13
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Re: Posts undeleted

Quote:
Is it their fault if their expectations of this forum are a little high because of their experience elsewhere? You could argue it is and it isn't. At the end of the day though, the Newbie Help section exists to help newbies.
Quote:
I myself read Brodys original post as somewhat curt and borderline insulting, so is it hardly surprising that the original poster did?
I am a big fan of newbies. I love them,
because without them my codebase does not
thrive. I tend to them, I nurture them,
I bestow upon them the gifts of my knowledge
and code asking nothing in return but that
they enjoy the codebase and help others when
asked. It is a lovely ecosystem of productivity
and mutual assistance.

In fact, among LP oldtimers, I've earned some
resentment for how vigorously I defend newbs
from the depredations of bored trolls. I
went so far as to set up my own intermud
router to help them avoid being eaten before
they had a chance to open their eyes and
gulp the clean, fresh air that is mudding
and LPC. I am, for all practical purposes,
the patron saint of LPmud noobs.

Perhaps most probative of my qualifications
to handle mud noobs is that I am parent to
a 3 year old.

So believe me when I say I have nothing but
warm affection toward those who seek help
on mudding, be it players, coders, be it
LP or Diku, whatever.

The thing is that whether it's a mud noob
or a 3 year old, "he can't help it, he's new"
only goes so far. Eventually some line has to
be drawn, and some correction must be applied.

The newer the person, often the less they
enjoy the correction. But without the
establishment of basic norms to give new
people a sense of how to conduct themselves,
there's no point in talking with them, and
there's no point being anywhere near them.
Noobs are corrected for their own good, and
for the benefit of the entire community.
Worrying about the one guy who runs away crying
because he doesn't like being told the
local standards of conversation is short-sighted.
If he can't handle it, let him go.

Coddling every lazy person who can't be bothered
to read docs results is populations of lazy
losers. Maybe that's something you find
desirable. I do not. Whether it is done gruffly
or syrup-laden, taking a noob by the hand
and walking them back to their homework is
not only good for them, it's good for us, and
if the person doing the correction is truly
out of line, his peers will handle correcting
*him*. That's how a community works.

If he breaks *rules*, that's where you step in.
But enforcing *politeness* is on the quick and
short path to a forum devoid of clever people
who won't be subject to your fine sensibilities.

And I think that would be counter to the
potential for general usefulness TMS has.

Quote:
Again, all I did was remove the posts that caused or continued the argument, and left the informative, neutral-or-friendly toned ones that answered the original question.
You're the mod for that topic and it's your right
to moderate it as you see fit and
nobody (afaik) is disputing your authority to
employ your own your discretion in the
exercise of that role.

Having said that...

I think that selectively deleting posts in
a thread is along the same dark path of
editing the content of a post (which I do
not claim you did here). It undermines the
integrity of the information on the forum,
not only because it disrupts the continuity
of the flow of that particular dialectic,
but because it also serves the more
counterproductive likelihood that experienced,
insightful members of the community will
choose to avoid participation.

That is not good. That is bad.

Quote:
If anything can be learned from this it should be that a few extra words and a different turn of phrase go a long to towards avoiding these kinds of misunderstandings.
I find this insulting (whether Brody finds it insulting is
up to him). I also find this to be a symptom of the problem.
Technical people answer in technical ways. If you want to
**** them off, tell them that their help is unwelcome unless
they gild it with pink fluffy clouds.

To "avoid this kind of thing" all you need to do is
lay off the Miss Manners RP and let people who know what they're
talking about help people who ask for help. If they
do it wrong, *they* will be corrected. If there is
question about where the lines of propriety stand,
the community is in a position to exert authority over that.

Unless crafting turns of phrase that suit *you* is a
rule, I am free to express my help in a way that conforms
to the rules without your interference. If you interfere,
*that's* how "this kind of thing" happens. Blaming Brody
is a poor excuse for hasty overmoderation.

-Crat
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:05 PM   #14
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Re: Posts undeleted

It seems that a lot of the friction between the two viewpoints on that thread was caused by two different methods of helping newbies. To generalize, one method has its roots in RTFM, "How To Ask Questions the Smart Way", and to put it more bluntly, think-before-you-speak discourse. The other method has its roots in 'customer-obsessed', 'bend-over-backwards', etcetera.

Now oddly, and I don't really know why this is myself, when I'm asking questions I believe in the first method. When I'm answering questions I like the second approach. This is mostly why I saw Brody's OP as rude to the newbie, and what sparked my reply to the thread.

Rather than going back and forth essentially arguing the correctness of people's personal viewpoints, it seems like this is the perfect opportunity to use some kind of neutral objective reference point.

Maybe what TMS could use is a newbie FAQ, and I think Lasher sort of mentioned this in passing, but noted his priorities. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a newbie FAQ somewhere in mud land that couldn't be donated/submitted to TMS, such that Brody could have easily replied something like:

1. Check out This FAQ Mr. Noobiest.
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brody View Post
There's only one thing wrong with your reconstruction of this specific situation, though: That's not at all how it happened. If we had a post from a newbie who had exhausted every avenue before posting, I don't think it would have been received in quite the same way. Instead, it went something more like this:

1) Newbie wants to play a MUD. Posts a vague how-do-I-do-it question on TMS.
2) Newbie doesn't get an immediate response. Posts a bit of a whine about that.
But how did the Newbie find TMS? Probably with google entering "mud newbie help forum" as a search query. To me it seems more trouble to register to a site and ask than using google. If basic physics apply, mainly the law of the path of the least resistance, you can conclude there's a large probability that the newbie did try alternative means to help himself.

Also, the newbie seemed more annoyed about people viewing his thread and not responding, than the time it took for someone to respond. Even if, truth be told, most people on this site could have helped him out by spending 10 minutes of their time. Image you need directions IRL and the first ten people passing by just ignore you and pretend they don't hear you. Though you probably have to go to Amsterdam for that to happen, you'll quickly find out that 'excuse me' isn't going to help much and try a different approach, which is exactly what Mr Noob ended up doing.

Of course there's blame at the noob as well for being overly vague about what he had tried so far and losing his patience rather quickly. Though I find your response to be comparable to someone telling you to go buy a city map when asked for directions, not to mention it's my own general response to tell people to google it up when I feel like being rude or inconsiderate.

Anywho, Mr Noob succeeded in the end by getting some useful information out of you after all. Not only didn't he take s**t, he made you his b***h while at!!

We should really be more concerned about socially aggressive noobs taking advantage of us and turning this tight knit community's members against each other!
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:29 PM   #16
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Re: Posts undeleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
But how did the Newbie find TMS? Probably with google entering "mud newbie help forum" as a search query. To me it seems more trouble to register to a site and ask than using google. If basic physics apply, mainly the law of the path of the least resistance, you can conclude there's a large probability that the newbie did try alternative means to help himself.
That's a giant jump in conclusions on your part. I guess my legs just aren't springy enough to make that leap. Had he posted: "I've been to DoA's website and I can't find any useful information there, can anyone HERE help me?" Well, that'd be a safe jump to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
Also, the newbie seemed more annoyed about people viewing his thread and not responding, than the time it took for someone to respond. Even if, truth be told, most people on this site could have helped him out by spending 10 minutes of their time. Image you need directions IRL and the first ten people passing by just ignore you and pretend they don't hear you. Though you probably have to go to Amsterdam for that to happen, you'll quickly find out that 'excuse me' isn't going to help much and try a different approach, which is exactly what Mr Noob ended up doing.
That'd be HIM jumping to conclusions then. This forum has at least a dozen bots visiting it at any given time and spiders leafing through threads, causing views to inflate. It's his fault if he mistakes that for people checking out his message and ignoring it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
Of course there's blame at the noob as well for being overly vague about what he had tried so far and losing his patience rather quickly. Though I find your response to be comparable to someone telling you to go buy a city map when asked for directions, not to mention it's my own general response to tell people to google it up when I feel like being rude or inconsiderate.
Actually, no, it's comparable to someone walking up to me in front of City Hall and asking, "How do I get to Le Chateau Magnifique?" And he's jumping up and down, clearly trying to get people to answer his question, but I've never been to Le Chateau Magnifique. However, I do know that if one consults an online directory for the city, one can get specific directions to La Chateau Magnifique. So, I suggest that he quit jumping up and down like a crazy person and consider another reference source that might be helpful.

Quote:
Anywho, Mr Noob succeeded in the end by getting some useful information out of you after all. Not only didn't he take s**t, he made you his b***h while at!!

We should really be more concerned about socially aggressive noobs taking advantage of us and turning this tight knit community's members against each other!
It's not just the newbs who are socially aggressive
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:47 PM   #17
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Re: Posts undeleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
I am a big fan of newbies.
It's not coming across too well!

Quote:
The thing is that whether it's a mud noob
or a 3 year old, "he can't help it, he's new"
only goes so far. Eventually some line has to
be drawn, and some correction must be applied.
Here's the difference between a 3 year old and a mud newbie: The three year old is three years old. The mud newbie may be an intelligent adult who is simply unused to the social conventions here.

I'll also note that I, at least, find the term 'noob' to be inherently patronizing and derogatory, though I realize that's subject to personal viewpoint.

Quote:

Noobs are corrected for their own good,

Ok, so, you sound exactly like a newbie administrator to me in this thread. Should I take this opportunity to correct you, "for your own good?" Clearly, you need some instruction for the good of both yourself and everyone else.


Quote:
Coddling every lazy person who can't be bothered
to read docs results is populations of lazy
losers.
Beware the newbie admin who considers it his duty to reform society because he thinks he knows better.

Are your hackles up yet?

Why?

Don't you like being treated like a 'noob' and being told how it is when you're off-base?

I can't blame you. Nobody does.

--matt

Last edited by the_logos : 08-14-2007 at 02:47 PM. Reason: formatting
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:49 PM   #18
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Re: Posts undeleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
... and
if the person doing the correction is truly
out of line, his peers will handle correcting
*him*. That's how a community works.

If he breaks *rules*, that's where you step in.
But enforcing *politeness* is on the quick and
short path to a forum devoid of clever people
who won't be subject to your fine sensibilities.
Which leads to forum members correcting other forum members in a thread, which leads to said forum members arguing their point back again, which leads to the thread going more and more off-topic, which leads to forum members arguing with forum members constantly.

As for enforcing politeness, there is such a thing as common courtesy. Allowing everyone to bitch and flame at each other repeatedly is a quick and short path to a forum full of people who constantly argue and spend more time insulting one another than answering the question of the poor bewildered sod who just came here for help. Oh wait...

Quote:
I think that selectively deleting posts in
a thread is along the same dark path of
editing the content of a post (which I do
not claim you did here). It undermines the
integrity of the information on the forum,
not only because it disrupts the continuity
of the flow of that particular dialectic...
We'll have to disagree there. When I selectively deleted the posts, the thread read as someone asking a question and getting an answer clearly, concisely, and without any bother. The only reason you guys know different is because of the stubs and the fact you read it before it was moderatated. Anyone else reading the thread for the first time would have hard a hard time spotting small, if any, discrepancies that would indicate a deleted reply. I was very careful to ensure the continuity of the thread was preserved whilst removing the argument. This, I believe, is the heart of a mods job. Otherwise we end up with what was there, a question asked and a couple of helpful answers swamped by a bunch of arguments. This may happen all the time in other sections of TMS (and does) but that does not mean I have to let it become the norm.

Quote:
but because it also serves the more
counterproductive likelihood that experienced,
insightful members of the community will
choose to avoid participation.

That is not good. That is bad.
If they're not having posts deleted because they're getting into silly arguments in the middle of threads, why would they even have to worry about it?

Quote:
I find this insulting (whether Brody finds it insulting is
up to him). I also find this to be a symptom of the problem.
Technical people answer in technical ways. If you want to
**** them off, tell them that their help is unwelcome unless
they gild it with pink fluffy clouds.
For a start, this wasn't aimed specifically at Brody. I also fail to see how it's a symptom of any problem. Techical people can answer in technical ways without a problem, my only hope was that perhaps this little issue would highlight the need for a bit of common courtesy and thought when replying to someone, even (or especially) if they're trolling.

Quote:
To "avoid this kind of thing" all you need to do is
lay off the Miss Manners RP and let people who know what they're
talking about help people who ask for help. If they
do it wrong, *they* will be corrected. If there is
question about where the lines of propriety stand,
the community is in a position to exert authority over that.
People who know what they're talking about are free to help people who ask for help. People who lace said help with insults (and this is NOT aimed at Brodys initial reply, just a general thought) because they're fed up of the general ignorance/stupidity/laziness of the world at large should not bother replying. Telling someone the best way to help themselves is excellent and a good way of helping them grow. Telling them how to do it whilst bemoaning the fact you have to tell them to do it at all is counter-productive and doesn't put a very good front on the community.

Quote:
Unless crafting turns of phrase that suit *you* is a
rule, I am free to express my help in a way that conforms
to the rules without your interference. If you interfere,
*that's* how "this kind of thing" happens. Blaming Brody
is a poor excuse for hasty overmoderation.
People can turn their phrases as they wish, as long as it doesn't involve insulting or rude behaviour. There's simply no need for it and I'm relatively certain there's a rule against it somewhere, there usually is on these types of forums.

I never blamed Brody for anything. The thread got pruned because of the argument irrespective of the cause. I pointed out to Brody which post of his I felt might have been misconstrued, but at the end of the day the argument as a whole was what prompted me to action. If you want to lay blame, I personally would lay it at the foot of the original poster for replying to Brody in a sarcastic way, and then at Brody for lowering himself to his level and replying in a sarcastic way, and then back with the OP for calling Brody a jerkoff. I've done similar prunings before and never had a problem, which is why I found it so strange to have all this fuss kicked up this time. Perhaps we're all just that bored?

I also replaced the posts because I agreed with someone that the stubs made the whole thing look terribly messy, not because of the numerous complaints. I've had long years of things where people complain about everything to me and am not likely to be bothered about it unless I look back at what I did and see a fault. I stand by the moderation I did and wouldn't hesitate to repeat the same thing again. A thread should stay on topic and stay civil, and it is the job of a moderator to ensure this happens. If people don't want their replies deleting, they can keep them on-topic and at least moderately polite. I fail to see how this is a Bad Thing.

Should I mention this whole discussion is terribly fun?
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:10 PM   #19
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Re: Posts undeleted

Good thing we're not still antagonizing each other...

...Oh, wait.

C'mon. Drop it
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:38 PM   #20
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Re: Posts undeleted

matt/sarapis/thelogos/whatever wrote:
Quote:
It's not coming across too well!
A CHALLENGER APPEARS!

I was actually kind of puzzled about what you
were on about, since you seemed smart enough
to understand the silliness of what you were
saying, until I read this part:

Quote:
Are your hackles up yet?
And then I started giggling. You were trying to
get my goat, you naughty troll!

Since folks here seem to be tired of sniping, I'll
switch off the merciless mockery that lame troll
attempt deserved.

Instead I'll just limit myself to remarking that
the things I said, I meant. Unlike others, I wasn't
being confrontational just to pick a fight, but
was honestly expressing what I really thought.

Perhaps my touch is not the softest, but I
have to my credit the virtue of having
been sincere in my words and articulating
them with a good-faith belief that my
communicative act was constructive in nature.

-Crat
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