Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Tavern of the Blue Hand
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-29-2007, 09:52 AM   #21
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Quote:
The lesson I've learned myself so far is, that attacks directed at a group of people apparently are acceptable by the moderators, whereas attacks directed against a single person aren't.
I've noticed that some unflattering statements about people
are allowed to stand, and some unflattering statements
about people are not. It's not always easy to tell when
one or the other will happen. I'm still working on sussing
out a pattern.

Whether it's pattern-based or actually random, my
frustration continues to rise at its arbitrariness.

I was told in a chat that Lasher is very
hypocritical because he forbids X but does X, but
I don't think that hypocrisy is the deal. I think that
there is a multiheaded ill-organized mess of
moderation that occurs when rules are not
explicitly laid out governing permitted content.

I think Lasher might *seem* hypocritical when he,
for example, engages in offtopic banter in a
thread that has had posts deleted for offtopic banter.

But in fact the problem is that his moderators
are exercising editorial authority on their own
scripts, and enforcing their own rules and
interpretation of unwritten "understandings"
on some people, but not on others.

The whole thing is just disgusting and while I
continue to exercise the patience being asked for
while things get worked out, I think perhaps it
is not too much to ask that dicretionary
deletions and editings happen only in extreme
cases *until* the formal written policies exist.

Seems only fair that patience is asked of
one group, restraint be expected of the other.

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 09:59 AM   #22
Lasher
Administrator
 
Lasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Name: Derek
Location: Orlando
Posts: 353
Lasher has a spectacular aura aboutLasher has a spectacular aura about
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detah View Post

If the rules are posted somewhere on this site, then please make it more obvious. I did everything that a reasonable person could be expected to do, to find the forum rules. I just cannot find them.

Detah@Arcania
Fair point. Very valid. The first time. Second, third, fourth time? By then you already know.

There's a new team (newly active team at least) in place and we are working on it. So we can either close the forums while it's done or leave it as it is knowing that most people will use their own judgement, perhaps erring on the side of caution,and the forums can still be productive.

Do you have a MUD?
Do you have a rule that says "Do not hack my server?".
Do you have a rule that says "Do not hunt me down, drive to my house and paint my car Orange?".

This is a forum for discussion and promotion of MUDs. Discussions will get heated, but there is no room for blatant personal attacks adding absolutely nothing constructive to the discussion or posts that have no purpose other than to provoke someone. If someone needs a "rule" to see this then we'll provide it, but if that person decides TMS isn't the place for them in the meantime I can live with that too.

If you're referring to the "f--k" example yesterday, nobody was moderated, nobody was scolded, code wasn't working that now is.


`
Lasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:00 AM   #23
Brody
Moderator
 
Brody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: North Carolina
Home MUD: OtherSpace
Posts: 1,599
Brody will become famous soon enoughBrody will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Skype™ to Brody
Re: Moderation

There hasn't been active (or fully effective) moderation on this site in quite a long time, primarily because it never has had a real set of rules. It's safe to accept that the current moderator staff will be working up a set of guidelines and rules to live by for public consumption. Until then, rather than shutting the site down while we sort out the rules, I think it's a necessary evil that moderation will seem arbitrary - at least moderation is happening and the guidelines will be made available as soon as possible.

Thanks for your patience and understanding!
Brody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:10 AM   #24
Lasher
Administrator
 
Lasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Name: Derek
Location: Orlando
Posts: 353
Lasher has a spectacular aura aboutLasher has a spectacular aura about
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
I was told in a chat that Lasher is very
hypocritical because he forbids X but does X, but
I don't think that hypocrisy is the deal. I think that
there is a multiheaded ill-organized mess of
moderation that occurs when rules are not
explicitly laid out governing permitted content.

I think Lasher might *seem* hypocritical when he,
for example, engages in offtopic banter in a
thread that has had posts deleted for offtopic banter.
"You were told", "It might seen" .. convenient and courageous ways to put words into someone else's mouth while you get to be the author.

Keeping a 200+ post thread 100% on-topic is impossible. There was a brief and lighthearted banter which was quickly ended. Nobody was attacked, nobody was provoked, nobody was accused of anything and the discussion was back on track within minutes.

If you don't see the difference, truly don't see the difference between that and the posts of yours that were removed, then we will never agree, your frustration level will continue to rise and you can move on safe and secure in the knowledge that you're not wasting any more of your time on a forum so poorly run.
Lasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:10 AM   #25
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
But in fact the problem is that his moderators are exercising editorial authority on their own scripts, and enforcing their own rules and interpretation of unwritten "understandings" on some people, but not on others.
When I was a moderator on the Advanced Mud Concepts forum, I wrote up a set of guidelines in a sticky post describing what was expected and what was acceptable - and although I was fairly strict about enforcing those guidelines, I don't recall every receiving complaints about my moderation.

I do think it would be beneficial to have a list of general posting guidelines for the site. Any forums with stricter posting guidelines could then add them as a sticky thread post.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:10 AM   #26
scandum
Senior Member
 
scandum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 308
scandum will become famous soon enough
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It might, but so far as I can tell it hasn't happened to any of mine. But the kind of person who goes digging through troll posts for the interesting stuff might not be the kind of person the community in question wants hanging around. Just a thought. Not directed specifically at you.

Now see, this right here is a matter of opinion. How am I "wrong" to support moderation in the name of civility if that's what the site administrators want? It's not my place to make those kinds of decisions anywhere I don't co-admin. It's also entirely your opinion that I'm "wrong" with increasing frequency lately. I just happen to disagree with your stand on something
I feel you Samson, I truly do, your wisdom is touching. But why practice this grand wisdom within the small boundaries of an online forum?

We should do this big, ya know, the real deal. Lets sterilize all trolls, possibly euthanize the worst cases, or just get rid of them all, and the degenerates while at it, in the name of civility. We should appoint me as the fearless leader, and I'd hand out the task of 'moderating' the population at large to a few, possibly incapable, but highly motivated individuals who like to moderate just for the sake of moderating, or simply because they realize the greatness of the work ahead.

We'd have heaven on earth in no time. I swear, it'd be the solution to all of man's problems, and even better, when we fix the problem at the root, moderation for all online forums would no longer be required because everyone left would be a sweet and obedient little forum user, the grandest of grand wet dreams of every forum admin.

Send me a PM to work out the details?
scandum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:22 AM   #27
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Quote:
If you don't see the difference, truly don't see the difference between that and the posts of yours that were removed, then we will never agree
That there is a difference between your sense of humor
and mine is beyond doubt.

I suggest that the primary difference is yours
is never in danger of moderation.

As to your sarcastic reference to my cowardice (does that
count as flaming?), if it pleases you I'll allocute to full responsibility
for the statements, since I will not "out" someone I was chatting with.
Let me rephrase it then.

------------------------------------------------------------
I might have thought that Lasher is very
hypocritical because he forbids X but does X, but
I don't think that hypocrisy is the deal. I think that
there is a multiheaded ill-organized mess of
moderation that occurs when rules are not
explicitly laid out governing permitted content.

I think Lasher might *seem* hypocritical when he,
for example, engages in offtopic banter in a
thread that has had posts deleted for offtopic banter.
------------------------------------------------------------

-Crat
LPMuds.net - Index
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:43 AM   #28
Newworlds
Legend
 
Newworlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,382
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly View Post
I frequent other Forums, where flames are unheard of even in heated discussions, not because of heavy moderation, but because the posters there all respect each other. Maybe that is the root of the problems here.
I'm inclined to agree with this. There seems to be a lot of ego with many of us who are either Admins ourselves or staff members of muds or moderators. I do believe though and have seen both in private messages and in public posts that Lasher is really working hard to bring everything together with his new team and I will give him the chance to do so and try to be a positive part of this development following Molly's suggestion of respect.

In fairness to Crat, he does sometimes seem a bit crass, but I believe that is his sarcasm and perhaps this is the case with many of us. I think we forget sometimes that we are all on the same team, as it were, and that is to make a community of staff and players that want to enjoy MUD style games and MUD style environments.
Newworlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:48 AM   #29
Lasher
Administrator
 
Lasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Name: Derek
Location: Orlando
Posts: 353
Lasher has a spectacular aura aboutLasher has a spectacular aura about
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
In fairness to Crat, he does sometimes seem a bit crass, but I believe that is his sarcasm and perhaps this is the case with many of us. I think we forget sometimes that we are all on the same team, as it were, and that is to make a community of staff and players that want to enjoy MUD style games and MUD style environments.
Well said. I think most would agree we'd like to attract more people to MUDs in general. On this forum we are like the proverbial family in-fighting constantly, except on this forum the whole world can see our discussions if they choose to look.

What impression of MUDs does an interested third party coming to the forum from Google because they happened to search on "Gold Dragon" (or whatever) come away with?
Lasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 10:56 AM   #30
Lasher
Administrator
 
Lasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Name: Derek
Location: Orlando
Posts: 353
Lasher has a spectacular aura aboutLasher has a spectacular aura about
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
As to your sarcastic reference to my cowardice (does that count as flaming?),
It could, and if a moderator finds themselves thinking they would moderate my post if it were from someone other than me then please, moderate it, and give me the same reason why you would give anyone else.

The only way I can really know if our moderation is 'fair', 'appropriate', 'just right', 'heavy handed' or whatever is to experience it. As Brody stated, it's going to take some time to find the right balance and we can only ask for patience in the meatime.
Lasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 11:11 AM   #31
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Quote:
The only way I can really know if our moderation is 'fair', 'appropriate', 'just right', 'heavy handed' or whatever is to experience it.
Make me a mod. You'll solve the problem of me being a rebel
(since I'll be inside the walls) and you'll get to feel first hand what
moderation is like, since I'll be every bit as consistent with you
as your mods have been with me.

-Crat
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 12:23 PM   #32
scandum
Senior Member
 
scandum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 308
scandum will become famous soon enough
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cratylus View Post
I think Lasher might *seem* hypocritical when he,
for example, engages in offtopic banter in a
thread that has had posts deleted for offtopic banter.
What works for me is to simply not go back any pages, and that way I'll never know one of my posts got deleted, nor get angry, nor have a hissy fit and leave the forum which would leave a lot of people coming here from TIC just to get a sniff of my literal prowess very sad and depressed.

The only thing that is required is for moderators to not delete the steady stream of spam and nonsense I spit forth until it has scrolled off of the last page. And given how everyone here claims to be considerate and respectful, that seems like a small favor to ask for.

Ignorance is bliss.
scandum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 12:44 PM   #33
Samson
Member
 
Samson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: United Socialist States of America
Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org
Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting
Posts: 249
Samson is on a distinguished road
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
I feel you Samson, I truly do, your wisdom is touching. But why practice this grand wisdom within the small boundaries of an online forum?

We should do this big, ya know, the real deal. Lets sterilize all trolls, possibly euthanize the worst cases, or just get rid of them all, and the degenerates while at it, in the name of civility. We should appoint me as the fearless leader, and I'd hand out the task of 'moderating' the population at large to a few, possibly incapable, but highly motivated individuals who like to moderate just for the sake of moderating, or simply because they realize the greatness of the work ahead.

We'd have heaven on earth in no time. I swear, it'd be the solution to all of man's problems, and even better, when we fix the problem at the root, moderation for all online forums would no longer be required because everyone left would be a sweet and obedient little forum user, the grandest of grand wet dreams of every forum admin.

Send me a PM to work out the details?
Scandum, while the humor is not lost on me, the analogy is broken for one very important reason: TMS is not the government and cannot be guilt of censorship in that sense. Nor could it be considered the gestapo for removing posts. TMS is a private entity and is thus not subject to the protections of the 1st amendment. I know. Shocking. But the Bill of Rights was specifically directed at preventing GOVERNMENT from engaging in censorship and other such nasty business. The 1st amendment specifically designed to prevent them from restricting political speech.

A private entity, like TMS, or say... your employer, can restrict what you say, when you say it, who you say it to, and take action to punish you if you violate the rules. Your recourse? In TMS's case, PM the moderator of the forum or the board admins and make your case. In your employer's case, hire a civil attorney and file suit. At least arguing your case with TMS is free
Samson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 04:07 PM   #34
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Got my second vague "warning" in a private message today.

Since a warning implies consequences, I can only assume
I'm being threatened with banishment.

That would be some sad stuff right there, if "patience" were
asked of users but I got kicked for insufficient piety.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/banned_crat.jpg
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 04:21 PM   #35
Jazuela
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 843
Jazuela will become famous soon enoughJazuela will become famous soon enough
Re: Moderation

See it's like this, craytus. Lasher runs this joint. He gets to make the rules. He also gets to break them if he wants to. He can post, in his own thread, "You all, personally and intimately, suck. And yes I mean you." And he can toggle his thread so no one can respond. He can siteban anyone who opens their own thread to respond. He can shut the whole damned site down if he gets too many people to respond, and he can remove the whole forum, and leave only a banner on the main webpage, reading, in enormous bold, italicized, underlined red letters, "You all, personally and intimately, suck. And yes I mean you."

Is it being a hypocrite? Nope. It's being "the guy who runs the joint." I run my own household. Therefore, I get to make the rules, and I can break them whenever I damned well feel like it, and if you don't like it, you're welcome to get your shrimp scampi for supper elsewhere.

I'm not even intending to imply that Lasher is breaking any of the rules; because a little off-topic banter that is appreciated by EVERYONE EXCEPT FOR YOU is fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned. But again, it isn't my place to decide. Because...I don't run the joint. I'm just a visitor. And if I ever get tired of visiting, I'll take my ball and go home like a good little girl. I suggest you do the same, instead of working yourself up to an aneurism over it.
Jazuela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 04:40 PM   #36
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Quote:
See it's like this, craytus. Lasher runs this joint. He gets to make the rules. He also gets to break them if he wants to.
Between you and Samson repeating
this to me, I get the feeling that you guys think
Lasher is in charge around here and gets to
decide how the place is run.

I'd like you to consider that I probably know that,
and that this point is not in debate. Perhaps we
can, you know, get past it.


Quote:
I'm not even intending to imply that Lasher is breaking any of the rules; because a little off-topic banter that is appreciated by EVERYONE EXCEPT FOR YOU
You may not have realized it, but I was not objecting
to Lasher's tangent. I was pointing out that he is presumed
to have that liberty, while am not.

If we agree that I know Lasher is in charge, and we
can accept that I'm not against the natural flow of
threads tangenting on occasion, then I guess it sounds like
you think I should just shut up.

I don't know how many people you speak for. Let's assume you
speak for everyone, and the consensus is that I should really just
shut up. I guess we can expect the axe to fall soon, then.

On the other hand, suppose there are other people who
have received secret warnings, suppose there are those who
don't mind debating these issues but don't dare incur the
enmity of the admins? I guess they're doing what they should,
too, and just shutting up about it.

If that's the kind of forum TMS is to be, then so be it.
I'll keep getting told by folks like you to keep my place, I'll
keep getting threats from mods to mind my manners, and
eventually I'll just get kicked as being too troublesome, and
the sun will rise the next day and the birds will sing.

So just hang in there, Jazuela. And if it's not too much to ask,
please spell my name correctly.

-Cratylus
http://lpmuds.net/banned_crat.jpg
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 04:41 PM   #37
Brody
Moderator
 
Brody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: North Carolina
Home MUD: OtherSpace
Posts: 1,599
Brody will become famous soon enoughBrody will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Skype™ to Brody
Re: Moderation

Crat, you're not helping your position at all. The moderators are trying to handle this with you via private messages. If you insist on trying to use that as fodder for continued griping about moderation of the forums, it's just going to make matters worse for you - and implying that The Man is out to get you isn't helping, either.

I don't think the warnings are vague at all, and neither are the consequences. No one wants to see you gone - you've been a valuable contributor here. But we do have to play by Lasher's rules.
Brody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:19 PM   #38
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Quote:
Crat, you're not helping your position at all. The moderators are trying to handle this with you via private messages.
I appreciate that you're trying to help, and I understand
that the moderation is done with the best intentions.

However, I do not know who is in charge of what, and
who has what authority. For all I know, someone that is
not Lasher sending me private warnings is overstepping
their authority.

I feel more comfortable being chastised in public, where
the cleansing scrutiny of the community can discern
how just my castigation is.


Quote:
If you insist on trying to use that as fodder for continued griping about moderation of the forums, it's just going to make matters worse for you
Not sure how it could be worse, really, other than
an outright ban. Keep in mind I'm not trying to get
deleted. I'm not trying to get banned. I'm speaking my
mind in good faith and have been doing so in keeping
with what my understanding of the mission of the site is/was.

Now that the rules are less unwritten, perhaps there is
hope for clearer understandings, but I doubt there will
be fewer clashes, because I as a person of good will,
and the moderators as people of good will, differ on the
usefulness and appropriateness of moderation of some
of my posts or parts thereof. It's an honest disagreement,
not a defiant manifesto. And as such, I don't see it
being resolved, because I don't have anything to gain
by compromising my position that the moderation around
here has been out of hand, and I'm just not inclined
to let it slide if it continues to be so.

So I don't see how it gets worse. Looks like I'm on a
rocket sled to bantown, the only question is when.


Quote:
and implying that The Man is out to get you isn't helping, either.
Sometimes I amuse myself with fiery rhetoric. We are
having fun here, after all, or is this site supposed to be
Serious Business?


Quote:
I don't think the warnings are vague at all, and neither are the consequences. No one wants to see you gone - you've been a valuable contributor here. But we do have to play by Lasher's rules.
I understand. At some point the moderation team will
get sick of me. I'm sorry for that, because I enjoy participating
here. I think it's right of me to speak my mind on these
points, and I think it's ok that I not go gently into that good night.
You guys will have to decide what kind of site to be.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/banned_crat.jpg
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:30 PM   #39
Brody
Moderator
 
Brody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: North Carolina
Home MUD: OtherSpace
Posts: 1,599
Brody will become famous soon enoughBrody will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Skype™ to Brody
Re: Moderation

While you might prefer public castigation (despite suggesting it was wrong for people to do that to ME in the n00biest n00b thread), the new approach of the moderation team is to try to handle these differences privately rather than having it devolve into a battle of egos.

Lasher can speak for himself on the matter of our authority, but I can assure you that whoever contacted you earlier was doing so with Lasher's full knowledge and consent.
Brody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2007, 05:36 PM   #40
cratylus
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
cratylus is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Moderation

Quote:
despite suggesting it was wrong for people to do that to ME in the n00biest n00b thread
I do not see that position espoused by me in that thread.

Was it deleted? I do not remember making it.

Please clarify.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/banned_crat.jpg
cratylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014