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Old 10-08-2007, 10:07 PM   #41
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
All of these points can be said for any game that has risks involved. This is again, more about risks and results of action, than whether or not permadeath makes for great roleplay and immersion. Evenso, I must ask, what game do you play that the top players cycle all the time from death. I'm curious on that one? I've rarely if ever seen this.
That hasn't been my experience. My pc having to face their own mortality is very different than having to face the loss of equipment or levels. It FEELS completely different.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:21 PM   #42
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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How often does a well established character die in a game like this? I've never played a MUD with perm-death. Or is that too general, equivalent to asking "How often does a character die in a MUD?".
Daily, give or take. Just not all of them on the same day.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:44 PM   #43
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

To answer Lasher - Some characters live real-life years, others die within an hour of genning. It really depends on the character and his environment and if the player has read any of the recommended tips to starting game play. Things like "don't leave the city gates in your first moments, because you have no armor, no weapon, no mount, no water, and you will die." Or things like "if a guy comes up to you and starts wiggling his fingers and glowing an odd purple, you should -probably- go somewhere else, very quickly." and things like "don't kick the local law enforcement in the knees."

Usually if people take heed of the "recommended tips for new players" they have a decent chance of playing their character for a few months. If they're extra lucky, or happen to have seriously awesome RP skills, they can land themselves some cushy opportunities to RP their way into fame, fortune, and longevity. But eventually - they will die, and that's a good thing, because if everyone could move up to the top, they'd have no one under them to rule over. SOmeone has to die, so others can take their place. If we were all uber powerful it would be a very boring game with nothing much else to do besides kill each other all day.
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:28 AM   #44
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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But eventually - they will die, and that's a good thing, because if everyone could move up to the top, they'd have no one under them to rule over. SOmeone has to die, so others can take their place. If we were all uber powerful it would be a very boring game with nothing much else to do besides kill each other all day.
I think that's the best argument for permadeath that I've seen so far, and that has really nothing at all to do with RP or the quality of it.
We all want our players to stay long in the game, but as a consequence most of us also have some problems with long-time players, who get so powerful that it puts a damper on every new player's aspirations, because the old ones are just so strong that catching up to them seems an impossible task.

Permadeath takes care of that problem very nicely.
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:37 AM   #45
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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I get the general impression that some who posted here feel insulted, on behalf of their mud, by some of the pro-permadeath posts in this thread. Also, some seem unable to grasp the concept of an opinion or personal experience, and defiantly argue against them. I've so far deliberately avoided singling out any particular muds with criticism or to point out flaws in a poster's argument, and I've done my best to avoid the inevitable elitist attitude that occurs in a discussion like this.

In the end, anyone who thinks one thing is strictly better than another will come off as an elitist. Through mudding for almost half of my life, experience has proven that certain game attributes make for a better roleplaying environment. If that makes me an elitist then I gladly accept that. I'll still stoically claim that the best roleplay in the world of muds is found in games that incorporate such measures as permadeath, character applications that require staff approval, level-free systems, short descriptions instead of names, and other similar rulesets. I've never been proven wrong by personal experience. Good roleplay can be found elsewhere, but to say that the above-mentioned examples do not increase the quality of it is ignorant, in my opinion.
Throttle. I doubt anyone here feels insulted by your comments, I certainly don't even when you opinionated NW. Some just don't agree with your statements and I think that makes you say things like, "...unable to grasp the concept of opinion or personal experience." Then you go on to say "I've played muds half my life, so I know." Sorry, but so have the rest of us. And you can "stoically claim" just as everyone else can.

What you believe brings the best roleplay doesn't make it fact. Just as what I believe doesn't make it fact or make the game you play worse because someone thinks that many of the features are roleplay/gameplay inhibiting. It's like some guy from a mud claiming that if you do not have a features manual setup then your game is not really playable. Some might feel that is naive position to take.

This wasn't even the purpose of the thread by Fifi who asked, "How does Permadeath alter the way you play?" Not, "My permadeath mud kicks everyone's arse in roleplay!" Start a new thread if you want to discuss that theory.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:04 AM   #46
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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In the end, anyone who thinks one thing is strictly better than another will come off as an elitist. Through mudding for almost half of my life, experience has proven that certain game attributes make for a better roleplaying environment. If that makes me an elitist then I gladly accept that. I'll still stoically claim that the best roleplay in the world of muds is found in games that incorporate such measures as permadeath, character applications that require staff approval, level-free systems, short descriptions instead of names, and other similar rulesets. I've never been proven wrong by personal experience. Good roleplay can be found elsewhere, but to say that the above-mentioned examples do not increase the quality of it is ignorant, in my opinion.
A lot of people here have been mudding a long time, in case you hadn't noticed.

I think it's great that you know what kinds of features and design choices tend to make for a game that you enjoy and/or that encourages the kind of play/roleplay that you like. I also think it's damn near the height of arrogance to insist that only roleplay in the style that you prefer is the best roleplay, which is what you're doing. Of course you'll never be proven wrong when you're defining what roleplay means and what kind of roleplay is desirable.

I think we can all agree that none of us wants to roleplay a character sleeping eight hours a day, going to the bathroom every few hours, etc. Ultimate realism isn't a goal any of us are after, because then we'd just play life. Equally, going to the other extreme, no realism at all isn't a goal any of us are after. Where we each draw the line between those two extremes as what strikes the right balance between suspension of disbelief and fun to play is a personal choice. If you want to post and say other people are wrong for preferring something else, you might as well cut to the chase and declare that I'm a jackass because your favorite color is blue and green is obviously superior. To suggest other colors are worthy of consideration would be ignorant.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:19 AM   #47
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Well except that blue and green ARE obviously superior, and if you think that any other colors are worthy of merit, then you really -are- ignorant.

Other than that I agree with Disciple. Carry on.
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:53 PM   #48
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

This is an interesting thread. Forgive me for reviving it.



The problem I have with permadeath is that it makes me, as a player, have to invent a whole new personality that I can role-play. It's one thing to invent a character (and the "workshops" posted elsewhere on the forum are pretty cool) but it's another to create a really distinctive character that I like to play. That's the real pain with permadeath: not that I lost a bunch of skills, but that I've lost a whole personality that I've invested sweat and blood into crafting.
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Old 04-24-2008, 01:42 PM   #49
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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This is an interesting thread. Forgive me for reviving it.
If there's good input to be had, necro-post away!

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The problem I have with permadeath is that it makes me, as a player, have to invent a whole new personality that I can role-play. It's one thing to invent a character (and the "workshops" posted elsewhere on the forum are pretty cool) but it's another to create a really distinctive character that I like to play. That's the real pain with permadeath: not that I lost a bunch of skills, but that I've lost a whole personality that I've invested sweat and blood into crafting.
I think that's what keeps me from going with perma-death as my favorite type of game to play. I really like extensive character development more than creating new characters, but I have friends that like creating new characters far more than playing them for any length of time. My preference is to be able to just spend as much time on developing a specific character as I can until I'd like to retire her, and I actually find myself being more careful with my characters because I have so much invested in them. For me, a stiff death penalty with a character that I really love causes me to work with caution on most everything I do, especially when there's extremely high political stakes.

With most permadeath games, I feel that you, as a player, are expected to go through a few characters before you figure out the "tricks" of keeping your character alive. That usually results in throw-away characters that I don't bother to invest a lot of time or thought into because pretty much anything can take her out in the first few hours or days of play. On one game, I lasted less than 45 minutes because I had the misfortune of running into a player who wanted me to do something I didn't think my character should do, and as a player, I had no interest in doing. Bam, I was dead like 10 minutes after that. This was after I'd put quite a lot of thought into my character and developing her because I'd bought into the idea that game was centered around RP, and frankly, I was upset with it because I felt like NO RP occurred than an exchange of two messages before I was slaughtered. Even being my most careful, a player could pretty much kill me on a whim and make up a roleplay reason for killing me. If I had known to make a few throw-away characters first, I might have been able to get more into it. If I had felt like the time I'd invested in the character was worth her death, it might have been worth it. Granted, I feel like it may have been bad luck for me to run into that situation right at the beginning.

So, I'm with you there. I don't want to invest a lot of time or thought into a character who could look at someone wrong and be dead a few minutes later. At the same time, I don't want to have to ignore the entire playerbase for any chance of living. I might as well be playing a single-player game then. I know that there are people who thrive on being able to "beat the odds", and I applaud them for it. I'm sure the experience is very intense, but it's not the thing I enjoy most from online, multiplayer games.
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Old 04-24-2008, 02:03 PM   #50
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

I have a few more points on Permadeath that should be noted. Though I am not a fan of 100% Permadeath, I do believe it has it's place. On NW, Permadeath is mixed with Resurrected Death. Permadeath occurs for specific reasons which you would have to find out by playing the game. All of it is roleplay related. But back to my points which are my opionion:

Point 1. Permadeath is not synonomous with roleplay. Just because you have permadeath does not make your mud an IRP Mud or even a roleplaying mud. In the basic sense, Permadeath is simply a means to say, "You lose, start over." This can also be said for Resurrected death. In the basic sense, Resurrected death simply means, "You lose a bit, start back a few paces."

Point 2. If you have Permadeath creation should be very very very simple, with only a smattering of history and background. More history and depth of character should be built down the road at various intervals. This makes permadeath more palatable and enjoyable as you grow into your character.
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:14 PM   #51
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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You must play alot of non-fantasy muds then. Fantasy by definition is not-real, hence fantasy. Yes, yes, you can argue flying a dragon can be real in a land of Dragon Masters, but how does a person falling from the dragon and floating to the ground any "less real" than the person falling and not "dieing forever"?
I think what's at issue more is the element of design intent. Is it any surprise that the vast majority of stock codebases do not possess permadeath and the vast majority of MUDs do not possess permadeath? Not at all. The world design simply tends to follow the code. Some may disguise it with a lot of explanation and mysticism, but in the end it really comes down to the established code and mindset of the games' creators. This isn't the case with permanent death.

Most games which have incorporated permadeath have done so because the world design has dictated the code needs. The "realism" approach isn't so much about "real" versus "fantasy" as it is looking at the gameworld design from the position that the code will follow the world design rather than thinking in terms of gaming concepts (levels, experience points, etc). In some cases this has been for the benefit of creating a more realistic role-play world but that's not the only reason. Permadeath can increase the stakes in a variety of gaming concepts (that's not to suggest it can't also be destructive in some types of games).

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RPI=Roleplay Intense. This has nothing to do with "great roleplay" but rather, that roleplay is "intense." Meaning, lots of pk, perhaps events or story that keep a player on the proverbial "edge of your seat."
Role-Play Intense does not mean that the role-play is intense. If it did, the phrase would be "intense role-play" with an adjective complimenting a noun. Like "red ball" or "stupid person", the adjective would be first. Now look at "Role-Play Intensive" or even "Role-Play Intense" and notice that the word "intense" or "intensive" is not in in front of "role-play". Applying your interpretation to the use of an adjective, do you say "I own a ball red because I am a person stupid"? No, of course not. You would own a "red ball" and would be a "stupid person".

RPI is often used as a noun. This isn't necessarily incorrect because they're using it as such with an implied meaning. For example, people will say "I play a RPI". What they're really saying is "I play a RPI MUD." It's the same as if I alternately chose to say "I'll give you all the reds" instead of saying "I'll give you all the red M&Ms." It helps to establish the term through the complete sentence first but unlike many adjectives, RPI has a much more limited application of use.

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It is not automatically synonomous with great roleplay, but likely more on the "killer" side or harsh roleplay vs. romantic (unless intense romance is involved ) or more orderly established cities or areas. Though I tend to think RPE and RPI can be interchangeable depending on story, plot, and what is happening at the time in the game.
RPE and RPI aren't quite interchangeable. RPI is merely a type of RPE. All RPIs are RPE but not all RPEs are RPI. In fact, the vast majority of them aren't.

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Actually what I've found (and why NW only has moderate permadeath) is that most permadeath muds end up with long time pk'ers that somehow happened to not die in the first couple years and they run the show, so to speak.
What you seem to have experienced is poor design and administration of the game world if PKers aren't punished for killing and can thus "run the show". The advantage of permanent death is that killing carries consequence. When the consequence isn't made to have an impact, permanent death tends to result in PKers simply ruining the established role-play by resorting to violence knowing the gains outweigh the risks.

Quote:
Point 2. If you have Permadeath creation should be very very very simple, with only a smattering of history and background. More history and depth of character should be built down the road at various intervals. This makes permadeath more palatable and enjoyable as you grow into your character.
Mina brings up a good point about players creating disposable characters and that point is the very reason that character creation on a game with permadeath should be anything but simple. The more depth and effort put into a character, the less likely players may be to invite death and act without consequence. To ensure that disposable characters don't exist, it does require a good degree of staff attention to ensure that such characters aren't roaming and that players who routinely create such characters are eventually shown the door. Mind you, I've played MUDs where you had very basic character backgrounds turn into well-played, enduring characters and I've played (and quit) MUDs with players who'd created detailed disposable characters. Hence, the real key is to identify the player's behavior patterns. That's where some games fall short.

Either for lack of effort or lack of concern, they allow players who think in terms of death being an acceptable risk as long as they can achieve their goals, regardless of role-playable feasibility or reasonable consequence (there's a word for that attitude: twink). I suspect it's these types of players and poorly-run games that Newworlds (unfortunately) seems to have encountered in the past. All I can offer is that it wasn't permadeath that was the problem. It was the players who behave in this manner and the game staff which don't take efforts to punish such players. As a former administrator who took a very, very, VERY dim view of twinkish players, I can sympathize with Newworlds or any other player who found permadeath distasteful on account of such reasons. It shouldn't have been so and the responsibility for ensuring it wasn't so lies firmly on the shoulders of those game staff that didn't take adequate measures to prevent it happening in the first place.

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What RPE mud doesn't roleplay at all times without exception. Hence the term Roleplay ENFORCED. I think you are talking about Roleplay Encouraged or Roleplay not required games.
Well, like the term permadeath or RPI, RPE is often misused and/or abused as well. It's entirely possible the confusion arises from the "encouraged" and "enforced" issue too.

As for permanent death being anything but die and that's it, "soft" permadeath is really a term that means anything and thus nothing. Being able to die a million times before it's "permanent" would be just as accurate a use of the term as a three-deaths-and-it's-permanent policy. Likewise, the concept of "soft" permadeath could just as easily apply to a game where you have unlimited lives unless you happen to die to an armored turnip with a really bad attitude as long as there was an armored turnip with a really bad attitude in the game. Even if the aforementioned vegetale were located on a difficult-to-reach mountain on a distant island, that possibility exists that you might die to it and hence "permadeath" exists.

However most people looking for permadeath aren't thinking about the various ways that one can rationalize game circumstances to provide a label of "permadeath". They're thinking what you and I think when we stand alongside a cliff or in front of a moving train: if I die, that's it. No escape clauses, no conditional "you get two more deaths before it's permanent", no "this is the morning train and I can only die if I'm ground up beneath the wheels of the afternoon one". Nope, it's die and that's it: permanent death, be it for the player in front of that morning train or the character who just got killed by an unarmored carrot with a sunny disposition.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:24 PM   #52
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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However most people looking for permadeath aren't thinking about the various ways that one can rationalize game circumstances to provide a label of "permadeath". They're thinking what you and I think when we stand alongside a cliff or in front of a moving train: if I die, that's it. No escape clauses, no conditional "you get two more deaths before it's permanent", no "this is the morning train and I can only die if I'm ground up beneath the wheels of the afternoon one". Nope, it's die and that's it: permanent death, be it for the player in front of that morning train or the character who just got killed by an unarmored carrot with a sunny disposition.
Jason
Not a bad post though drudgingly long (I snipped most of it).

I have to wonder though, using this argument if it isn't true permadeath (i.e. 100% in all situations), it doesn't make it intense, then you could additionally argue that it isn't intense if permadeath allows you to restart immediately. You could argue a real permadeath game would ban the player from restarting for a day, week, month, or even six months to really make them take their character seriously. I can see some hardcore game admins saying the following:

"I mean, what's this pantywaist permadeath then restart immediately crap. What are you guys just restart happy? Let's get intense and serious about our characters. If you die on our game, you can't play again for 30 days! Any of those other games are a joke if they call themselves intense. Really. Pfffft."

I guess my argument here is that it goes back to preference of game play and doesn't have much to do with roleplay or intensity.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:08 AM   #53
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Now I've already weighed in on permadeath-- but I'll add one thing: I've played permadeath muds, and in my opinion, it definitely adds a ton in the way of thrill and excitement much in the way prof1515 describes.

This is offset somewhat by the fact that thrill-seeking and adventuring is actively discouraged by the mud (because, you know, you can really die doing that).
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:47 AM   #54
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Here's the thing. I really like caramel nut ice cream. I mean, it's got caramel and it's got nut. There's somthing about caramel I find really comforting, and the nuts are an excellent crunchy counterpoint. When I go for ice cream, I'll probably go to the shop with the caramel nut ice cream.

I hate to go alone. So, I go out for ice cream with people. Some of them like rum raisin. Some have nut allergies. So, it's nice that the ice cream shops sell more than one kind of ice cream, isn't it? And when we talk about new shops and I ask, "do they have caramel nut" no one gets offended and tries to sell me on butter pecan instead.

I hope this metaphor isn't too oblique.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:46 AM   #55
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

That was actually a very good metaphor Fifi.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:08 AM   #56
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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Here's the thing. I really like caramel nut ice cream. I mean, it's got caramel and it's got nut. There's somthing about caramel I find really comforting, and the nuts are an excellent crunchy counterpoint. When I go for ice cream, I'll probably go to the shop with the caramel nut ice cream.

I hate to go alone. So, I go out for ice cream with people. Some of them like rum raisin. Some have nut allergies. So, it's nice that the ice cream shops sell more than one kind of ice cream, isn't it? And when we talk about new shops and I ask, "do they have caramel nut" no one gets offended and tries to sell me on butter pecan instead.

I hope this metaphor isn't too oblique.
The problem is, Fifi, is we have people who know that caramel is made out of sugar. And so as far as they're concerned, any ice cream made with sugar could technically be considered made with caramel. Further, if the shop offers coconut, then yes, they do serve nut ice cream (since coconut -is- a nut). Therefore, any ice cream shop selling ice cream made with sugar, of which one flavor happens to be coconut, could claim that yes, they sell caramel nut ice cream. And if you try to say "no no, I mean "Caramel Nut" ice cream," they can go off on you and argue that they do sell caramel nut, and you're just being elitist because YOUR idea of caramel nut is ridiculous and not what 20 other people consider to be caramel nut. Even though 20 OTHER people have been buying caramel nut by your definition, and not theirs, for 10 years.

So unfortunately with the crowd here on TMS, your metaphor sinks.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:23 AM   #57
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

***ROFL***

Jazuela that's great!
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:24 PM   #58
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

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The problem is, Fifi, is we have people who know that caramel is made out of sugar. And so as far as they're concerned, any ice cream made with sugar could technically be considered made with caramel. Further, if the shop offers coconut, then yes, they do serve nut ice cream (since coconut -is- a nut). Therefore, any ice cream shop selling ice cream made with sugar, of which one flavor happens to be coconut, could claim that yes, they sell caramel nut ice cream. And if you try to say "no no, I mean "Caramel Nut" ice cream," they can go off on you and argue that they do sell caramel nut, and you're just being elitist because YOUR idea of caramel nut is ridiculous and not what 20 other people consider to be caramel nut. Even though 20 OTHER people have been buying caramel nut by your definition, and not theirs, for 10 years.
On the other hand we have three people that think Chocalate is actually Caramel and want the entire population of Ice Cream makers to start renaming all their Chocolate ice cream as Caramel Ice Cream. So really the metaphor does work, your intepretation does not, however.

Actually, I think this whole argument is in the wrong thread. How is it that RPIMUD promoters turn each thread into an argument about their definition of what RPI is?

Last edited by Newworlds : 04-25-2008 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:44 PM   #59
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

GRRRRRRR. I really hate conversations that don't involve any active listening. I need to stop reading these forums. But like a train wreck I just can't look away.

You all just need to be "right" all the time huh? And yes, I'm referring to all of you.

I just wanted to know which muds offer the feature of you die and don't get to come back. I'm not saying that it's better or worse. I'm saying it's different from the muds where you die and you do come back.

You can all play muds that have resurrections have no resurrection or partial resurrection. That's fine. Whatever you like. All I want is to pinpoint which muds have this feature. Why on earth is that offensive to anyone? Why does it require nastiness or sarcasm or arguments? And yes, I mean the people who define permadeath as I do, too. Just because I agree with what you're saying doesn't mean I agree with how you say it.

Yes, I mean YOU.

I wonder what would happen if we all treated each other with courtesy, as if we were reasonable adults.

Last edited by Fifi : 04-25-2008 at 02:46 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:03 PM   #60
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Re: How many muds have permadeath?

Fifi,

You are right on target. My apologies for getting off topic. I'm sure there are numerous MUDs that offer full permadeath only. Some may be hard to find because many do not describe this in their descriptions, but surely players here know which ones offer this.

To recap what has been said on this thread, the following offer it:
----------------------------
Two of the JTS games have permadeath. (From Brody)
Armageddon
Shadows of Isildur
Clive Barker's Undying (Mud?, don't know, from Rendekar)

From other threads:

Darksun MUD (Delerak)
Proph1515 talks about Permadeath and may know one or two, I
6 Dragons
Archaic Journey
SoulMUD: Age of Dogma
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There must be more than this, but I do not know where they are from.
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