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Old 03-16-2008, 12:50 PM   #81
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

The main thing I am looking for on a MUD is an RP enforced environment. It is especially frustrating for me when a game lists itself as being RP Mandatory or Enforced and I don't see any evidence of roleplaying in early game play.

I admit to not giving most MUDs a lot of my time initially unless they come with very high recommendations from people I trust. For this reason I don't like games that have newbie areas that isolate me from the bulk of the players right away or force me to go through a long tutorial before I start. I also don't like being forced to read a ton of documentation before I start a game.

If a game has some sort of pre-approval system of either names or character concepts and they don't approve very quickly (within an hour) then it is unlikely I will come back to check out the MUD. If I'm in the mood to try out a new MUD I typically want to do so immediately.

I also like seeing some sort of OOC newbie help system or channel. I'll take time to go through documentation to figure things out, but if I can't find it in my searching then I like having help readily available.

With all this being said, if I jump right into a MUD and like what I see then I am the type of player that will spend hours reading all the back documents, rules, and so on. I will also then spend a lot of time researching the game world and coming up with a detailed history and character concept.

There are a lot of other things that I prefer from MUDs and could go into that list here, but since I have tried many MUDs and they often lose me within the first hours of game play I have focused on the reasons above.
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:19 AM   #82
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Talking Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

12. Un-games.
Unwritten.
Uncoded.
Unprofessional.
Understaffed.
Underpopulated.
Unending 'beta'.
Unimaginative.


Unforgivable.
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:25 AM   #83
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

13. Racist, sexist or homophobic remarks by staff. Player-bashing is one thing, but demographic-bashing is just so low-class it beggars outrage.

I'm surprised I forgot this, but in a long list of things I experienced at my last MUD, it fell through the cracks. I noticed that one or two of them were edited from public logs posted on their forums, but that they were said at all, posted for a minute, and edited without an apology some weeks after they were made is utterly inexcusable. There is no place in the world, much less a game, whether it's in staff chat, global channels, public player meetings or public forums on the internet, for this sort of backwards ignorance.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:11 PM   #84
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

Pay to play or pay for perks muds or whatever. Those are ridiculous in my opinion. Also any mud that tries to make money off the mudding community in general leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I've also got personal feeling about that and feel muds started as free games they should stay that way. I'm also against capitalism and commercialization though so go figure.

Also any mud that disillusionist plays.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:33 PM   #85
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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I'm also against capitalism and commercialization though so go figure.

And yet here you are on a for-profit site, generating pageviews that TMS sells to advertisers, a number of which are commercial MUD operators.

I'll bet the computer parts you're using come from a capitalist enterprise as well (they definitely do, in fact, as there are no non-capitalist manufacturers of CPUs).

Why let a bit of hypocrisy stop you though, right? Acting consistently with one's beliefs requires commitment and might require you to actually give things up that were produced by the capitalists you profess to dislike.

--matt
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:49 PM   #86
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Also any mud that disillusionist plays.
Imagine my unending dismay. If I post a list, will you stay away? That seems mutually beneficial.

[Edited to add]: since there is only one MUD I -won't- play, shall I give you its name? You'd fit right in.

It makes me curious about such ridiculous stances as 'anyone who tries to make money off the mudding community'. By what freak of nature or economics are mudding players exempt from paying for something, or that people who build something that costs them money charging others for it?

Ah, if only the entire world just did things as hobbies, and let everyone benefit from them for free. That would really get things done.

Last edited by Disillusionist : 06-03-2008 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:01 PM   #87
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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And yet here you are on a for-profit site, generating pageviews that TMS sells to advertisers, a number of which are commercial MUD operators.

I'll bet the computer parts you're using come from a capitalist enterprise as well (they definitely do, in fact, as there are no non-capitalist manufacturers of CPUs).

Why let a bit of hypocrisy stop you though, right? Acting consistently with one's beliefs requires commitment and might require you to actually give things up that were produced by the capitalists you profess to dislike.

--matt
I consider myself a neutral observer. But as far as capitalism goes, it simply isn't a good thing I don't believe. We can't all be fanatics I'm afraid. I never said I was against free trade or democracy or any number of other things, just the capitalistic machine that is tearing our world apart. So if you don't like toyota cars are you going to never ride in one? I guess you will Logos, you're not a hypocrit eh?
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:02 PM   #88
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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Originally Posted by Disillusionist View Post
Imagine my unending dismay. If I post a list, will you stay away? That seems mutually beneficial.

[Edited to add]: since there is only one MUD I -won't- play, shall I give you its name? You'd fit right in.

It makes me curious about such ridiculous stances as 'anyone who tries to make money off the mudding community'. By what freak of nature or economics are mudding players exempt from paying for something, or that people who build something that costs them money charging others for it?

Ah, if only the entire world just did things as hobbies, and let everyone benefit from them for free. That would really get things done.
I'm not surprised that you took my comment seriously. Any chance you get to tread on sarcasm it seems.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:35 PM   #89
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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So if you don't like toyota cars are you going to never ride in one? I guess you will Logos, you're not a hypocrit eh?
If I objected to Toyota cars, I simply wouldn't purchase or use one. Likewise, if I actually objected to commercialization of MUDs, I wouldn't participate in any commercial MUD sites (such as the one you're using right now).

--matt
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Old 06-03-2008, 06:52 PM   #90
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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If I objected to Toyota cars, I simply wouldn't purchase or use one. Likewise, if I actually objected to commercialization of MUDs, I wouldn't participate in any commercial MUD sites (such as the one you're using right now).

--matt
I don't participate in commercial MUD sites. I wasn't even aware that this was a "commercial" mud site. Far as I knew it was a mud listing website, and when I signed up to start using it originally I don't think it even had the advertisements. But I never said I was totally against advertising, I'm not a fanatic like I said before.

I don't like the idea of taking something that started out free and fun, and turning it into a world of warcraft type business.
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:50 PM   #91
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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I don't participate in commercial MUD sites. I wasn't even aware that this was a "commercial" mud site. Far as I knew it was a mud listing website, and when I signed up to start using it originally I don't think it even had the advertisements. But I never said I was totally against advertising, I'm not a fanatic like I said before.
It's been a commercial site that runs ads longer than you (or I) have been using it.


Quote:
I don't like the idea of taking something that started out free and fun, and turning it into a world of warcraft type business.
You're setting up a false dichotomy there insofar as you're implying that free and fun are linked. They are not. I have an awesome time skiing, for instance, and it's certainly not free. Running, on the other hand, costs me no money but I dislike it intensely.

As far as the relationship between how something started and how it is now, I for one am very glad that people are able to unleash their creativity and create something new, which you appear opposed to. If you want something to be exactly like the first instance of it, why wouldn't you be looking only to play/talk about MUD 1? All other MUDs contain different features and are thus not what MUDs originally were. MUD 1 was cool for the time, but by today's standards it is a very, very limited/basic MUD. Thank goodness others took that seed of an idea and expanded upon it, giving us the diverse range of options we have in MUDs today, from the humblest DIKU clone with two players to the WoWs and Runescapes of the world with their millions of players.

It's also worth pointing out that the inventor of MUDs (Dr. Richard Bartle) ran a commercial MUD and that he himself has no problem with commercialization of MUDs.

--matt
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:36 PM   #92
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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It's been a commercial site that runs ads longer than you (or I) have been using it.




You're setting up a false dichotomy there insofar as you're implying that free and fun are linked. They are not. I have an awesome time skiing, for instance, and it's certainly not free. Running, on the other hand, costs me no money but I dislike it intensely.

As far as the relationship between how something started and how it is now, I for one am very glad that people are able to unleash their creativity and create something new, which you appear opposed to. If you want something to be exactly like the first instance of it, why wouldn't you be looking only to play/talk about MUD 1? All other MUDs contain different features and are thus not what MUDs originally were. MUD 1 was cool for the time, but by today's standards it is a very, very limited/basic MUD. Thank goodness others took that seed of an idea and expanded upon it, giving us the diverse range of options we have in MUDs today, from the humblest DIKU clone with two players to the WoWs and Runescapes of the world with their millions of players.

It's also worth pointing out that the inventor of MUDs (Dr. Richard Bartle) ran a commercial MUD and that he himself has no problem with commercialization of MUDs.

--matt
This is true, I'm not totally against commercialization to the point of not wanting to buy a game that developers worked hard on and deserve my money. I just don't respect the commercializaiton of anything that takes advantage of the people paying money for it. And I think that's what commercial muds do. I've played commercial muds and have seen the tactics used to get players to continue spending money to play, and anyone with a bit of intelligence wouldn't waste their money.
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:02 PM   #93
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

Can we please stay on topic and stop straying off topic to mud bash. I really find that offensive to these forums.
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Old 06-04-2008, 01:12 AM   #94
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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This is true, I'm not totally against commercialization to the point of not wanting to buy a game that developers worked hard on and deserve my money. I just don't respect the commercializaiton of anything that takes advantage of the people paying money for it. And I think that's what commercial muds do. I've played commercial muds and have seen the tactics used to get players to continue spending money to play, and anyone with a bit of intelligence wouldn't waste their money.
But isn't making consumers hand over their money in exchange for the goods or services they offer the goal of pretty much every commercial organization in existence? What do you want the owners of commercial muds to do, start using non-effective stratagies to get players to spend money instead of doing what works, in the hopes that people such as yourself will sleep easy knowing that random people you've never met and likely will never meet in the future aren't being taken advantage of? They'll just be taken advantage of by some other company anyways (Have you seen the price of gas these days? Now that is what I would call being taken advantage of).
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:19 AM   #95
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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But isn't making consumers hand over their money in exchange for the goods or services they offer the goal of pretty much every commercial organization in existence? What do you want the owners of commercial muds to do, start using non-effective stratagies to get players to spend money instead of doing what works, in the hopes that people such as yourself will sleep easy knowing that random people you've never met and likely will never meet in the future aren't being taken advantage of? They'll just be taken advantage of by some other company anyways (Have you seen the price of gas these days? Now that is what I would call being taken advantage of).
Of course, I don't care about commercial organizations in general, it's just muds trying to profit from the mudding community. It just doesn't feel right. If everyone felt the same way about it, we wouldn't have had the great codebases and community we have today.

Open source is the way to go. Could you imagine if linux wasn't free? Or if DIKU decided not to release it's code with their license. We wouldn't have many great muds in existance that are on the top of the mudlists you see at this website everyday.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:04 AM   #96
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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Of course, I don't care about commercial organizations in general, it's just muds trying to profit from the mudding community. It just doesn't feel right. If everyone felt the same way about it, we wouldn't have had the great codebases and community we have today.

Open source is the way to go. Could you imagine if linux wasn't free? Or if DIKU decided not to release it's code with their license. We wouldn't have many great muds in existance that are on the top of the mudlists you see at this website everyday.

Yes linux is free, but how many commercial releases of it do we see? Can anyone say SuSE.. RedHat...? Both of these either still produce or used to produce 'commercial' versions of their linux bundles. There are other commercial distros, but those are the ones that come to me off the top of my head, as I have had those.. actually have the first commercial release of linux that RedHat ever made.. ahh the headaches that thing caused. Wine is a freely available program, yet there are commercial version of it that have been specialized to handle certain things (Cedega.. Crossover Office). Should any of these be looked down on? No, far from it. They have worked hard to make Wine more useful for certain situations, and sometimes have even gotten licenses to the things they have added into the code (thus meaning they can't release those portions).

Open Source does not mean the software is free. Open Source is about providing the source code for the software freely. Now, by that I mean if you get the program (whether the program is free or you pay for it) you then should have access to the source code, if it is not already bundled with it. Yes a lot of Open Source programs are free, but a program that costs money can still be open source software. Open Source is about providing people with access to be able to see how the program they just got works, or even be able to make alterations to customize it to their specific needs, fixing bugs and the like, hopefully passing bug fixes up to the creators, and even redistributing their version of it. Open Source and the Free Software Foundation (which is slightly different fom Open Source) have nothing to do with the programs being free.

Diku is not Free software. It's not even really and truly Open Source. Yes, it costs you nothing to use, or even publish a game with it. But in order for a piece of software to be Free or truly Open Source, you have to have the freedom to do with it whatever you wish (pretty much don't break the law), including being able to sell your version of the modified software if you chose. Linux, on the other hand *is* Free and Open Source software since companies can take it, create their own distro using other Free or Open Source software, and turn around and sell the thing after they have it packaged how they want.

As for MUDs who are 'commercial'... You yourself have said that you do not mind paying a game developer for their hard work. Are MUD developers not game developers? Do they not put a lot of hard work and love into their projects? There is nothing wrong with those who put in the work to build their game from the ground up (or using a piece of Free software as a base) to seek a bit of payment for the game they have developed for others to play.

There are three groups that I can think offhand of that create pay-to-play MUDs. Play.net with their round of game, Iron Realms with theirs, and Frogdice (Creators of Threshold and soon Primordiax). Do I agree with everything these groups do for their games, nope. Do I think that they take advantage of the mudding community... only ones I can say yes to without a doubt there, is Play.net. $15/mo is a steep price for a text based game. However, I respect their right to do so. Gemstone has a long history, and as far as I know it has always been a commercial project.

Iron Realms.. I find their games to be quite well made, and I do enjoy firing up Lusternia or Aetolia and having my fun for a little while. I do not fault them for seeking to make some money off the games. As far as their payment method goes, yes the game is 'free to play', and you can get credits in game. However, you do need credits to be able to advance your character very far in the skill trees, and getting them through the in game credit market.. you'd need to spend hundreds of hours getting the gold to buy the credits to get your skills to high levels.

Frogdice, Threshold specifically, yup, that has been my 'home' MUD for years. There are some things I don't like about the game (mainly would love it to be more viable to advance characters without having to go out and kill stuff), but it is still well made. Granted there has been a lot of debate in the past about the game and it being a commercial game, and I'm not interested in getting into that discussion. My point is, the game has been well made, and the roleplaying in it is better than any other commercial game I have seen yet. I do feel that some of the 'perks' you can purchase should be available to all characters, but hey, that is their choice on how to handle it.

In short, charging money to play a MUD is not taking advantage of anyone. It is not going against the notion of Open Source or Free Software. Also, most MUD code bases do not fall under actual Free or Open Software. Cost may be free.. but they are not Free or Open.

Edit: Note about the games I mentioned that are commercial, and I mentioned things I didn't particularly like, they are just my personal opinions. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the game or the method they choose to make money. How they handle it is their choice, and right. If I don't like it, it is my choice whether or not I play there or give them my money. That right there is actually one incentive that commercial MUDs have to create a well made and entertaining game, if players don't like it, it's too buggy, or what ahve you, those players can easily take their money elsewhere.

Last edited by ShadowsDawn : 06-04-2008 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:00 PM   #97
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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Of course, I don't care about commercial organizations in general, it's just muds trying to profit from the mudding community.
Really? One page back you wrote, "I'm also against capitalism and commercialization though so go figure.


Backpedaling is fun isn't it?


Quote:
It just doesn't feel right. If everyone felt the same way about it, we wouldn't have had the great codebases and community we have today.
And if we didn't have commercial text MUDs the most popular text MUDs in history would not have existed. The most popular text MUDs today are also commercial. The text MUD community loves commercial MUDs, as evidenced by those facts. You may not like them, and some other developers may not, but actions speak, and the text MUD community's actions say it's happy to support commercial MUDs.

Quote:
Open source is the way to go. Could you imagine if linux wasn't free? Or if DIKU decided not to release it's code with their license.
I think another poster has already pointed out that you don't seem to understand what open source is. DIKU is certainly not open source.

Quote:
We wouldn't have many great muds in existance that are on the top of the mudlists you see at this website everyday.
Likewise, without commercial MUDs we wouldn't have many of the great muds in existence that are on top of the mudlists you see at this website every day. I wouldn't typically use any "top mud list" as justification for anything but you brought it up. Fully half of the top 10 MUDs here are commercial, and at least one other accepts money (Aardwolf, which isn't really fully commercial but does accept money sometimes).

And that's not even counting Gemstone and Dragonrealms (both commercial), which would be at the top of the TMS list if they participated in the voting actively.

The idea that one feature set of MUDs is "more right" than another is silly. Subscription charges, pay-for-virtual-item features, etc are just features, no different from having a weather system or a combat system .

--matt
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Old 06-04-2008, 01:46 PM   #98
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

Delerak has made it clear that his is just an opinion, within the thread it counts just a "Why he would not play a MUD", he went a bit further and threw some flame-bait in his first post, has changed his argument as the fallacy of his initial words was pointed out and now is helping convert the thread into another "Commercial MUDs are evil, play RPIs as I define them!" thread.

Could we all just be aware of his intentions on derailing a perfectly fine thread into oblivion and let him just fade away into nothingness? If you know you are so absolutely right and he (Delerak) is so absolutely wrong (which for my standards has been 'proven' with arguments already) then just let it be. Others will come to the same conclusion and maybe have a good laugh at his arguments for not playing the MUDs he listed.

Let the thread return to its original intent please, it was a fine thread, it was a good thread ...
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:01 PM   #99
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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Delerak has made it clear that his is just an opinion, within the thread it counts just a "Why he would not play a MUD", he went a bit further and threw some flame-bait in his first post, has changed his argument as the fallacy of his initial words was pointed out and now is helping convert the thread into another "Commercial MUDs are evil, play RPIs as I define them!" thread.

Could we all just be aware of his intentions on derailing a perfectly fine thread into oblivion and let him just fade away into nothingness? If you know you are so absolutely right and he (Delerak) is so absolutely wrong (which for my standards has been 'proven' with arguments already) then just let it be. Others will come to the same conclusion and maybe have a good laugh at his arguments for not playing the MUDs he listed.

Let the thread return to its original intent please, it was a fine thread, it was a good thread ...
I totally agree.
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Old 06-06-2008, 05:45 PM   #100
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Re: Things that make you NOT play a MUD

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I think also..if you check out... the player reviews for the MUD and, for example, out of the 10 reviews, ONE is an actual players and the rest are all Staff..red flags go up.
Other review flags for me:

Only Glowing reviews that sound similar. THis makes me wonder did the Admin write something and offer bonuses or favor for posting a good review? I question the credibility of the MUD if every single review has no bad points mentions and hit the same exact high points.

Admin 'answers' every review that contains a negative comment. For me a review should have pros and cons, although there are a few muds I have been on for which I could find nothing good to say except it is running - most of the time. Yet, time and time again I have seen admins (mainly on TMC) comment on a review in detail even to the point of revealing the reviewer's character names and their transgressions on the MUD. Sorry I just don't think comments like , "I found the roleplay contrived," or "There are too many unfinished areas or commands that do not function" warrant that.

Reviews are all a few days or hours apart. Again that smacks of a reward being offered. Now admittedly we will all as players occasdionally say hey such and such a mud site has nothing on this place in its reviews. But after an initail flurry, others should follow periodically.
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