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Old 03-18-2009, 03:50 PM   #41
locke
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
However the degree of inspiration and derivation isn't the issue here. All I'm pointing out is that your Nimud scripts were based on the MOBprograms code shipped with Merc 2.2, which means you couldn't have started work on them until Merc 2.2 had been released on 24th November 1993. However that is a moot point anyway, as you state within the code that you started work on the Nimud scripts 7th May 1994.
The only issues here seem to be the ones you keep bringing up, even though the horse is dead, do you have to continue to beat it?

We've already established -- including my admittance that they are probably not related in the source code aside from the MS-DOS Batch file language variable syntax (which may have earlier roots), that is DG and NiMScripts -- any continued nitpicking is to appease your ego and has no real point in this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post

We're talking about The Isles here, not Cthulhu MUD. From the distribution file that came with the first version of The Isles:
CthulhuMUD IS the direct predecessor to NiMUD. It's the same source code. NiMUD grew out of the demise of the original CthulhuMUD in 1993. CthulhuMUD-related source code (NiMUD) was released to people in December 1993 and written in September / October 1993. The Isles, NiMUD and what was left from CthulhuMUD's short 2 month lifespan are all the same project and all authored or co-authored by me. It's the same thing repackaged or private labeled, derived or evolved, however you want to put that. You're trying to convince me that these are somehow different. Aside from their name, they are not different -- merely evolutions of the same base of code over time. CthulhuMUD became NiMUD (the public package) and The Isles (the name of my mud that runs NiMUD software). It is NOT cthulhumud.org -- the CthulhuMUD that runs today.

Along with OLC, the HIT_FUN() feature was added for CthulhuMUD. At the same time we added "hit_suck_disarm" (for the Lovecraftian Flying Polyp attack) and "hit_vorpal" (for the vorpal sword), which has become a popular, signature feature of NiMUD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post

"The Isles is a modified Merc 2.2 source code, with many features not present in the original Merc source."

"We wanted a different system altogether, and we were pretty sure that this feature (present in CthulhuMUD, a long gone god) would be the ticket."

"Changed armor to resemble (vaguely) the CthulhuMUD/Aldara3 setup (damagable)."


However once again this isn't important to the point in question, which is whether or not DG Scripts copied parts of the Nimud Scripts as you have suggested.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. We are not trying to prove that. I have not said that. Someone posted that on Wikipedia and it failed the litmus test and thus was removed, apparently by Fizban. In fact, I established that three messages ago and you're continuing to argue it as if we are arguing the counterpoint, which no one is. You have some serious control issues. You should re-evaluate your posture toward these discussions because they are probably unhealthy for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
We know that Worlds of Carnage was the first Diku to implement a scripting system. That system inspired others, including Cythera, LegendMUD, and the version implemented in Merc 2.2. It is possible (although this is only speculation) that Death's Gate MUD also drew some inspiration from Worlds of Carnage, but it couldn't have copied the Nimud scripting system because it predates it.
I don't know if that WoC assertion is true or not, but it's irrelevant since this is not the discussion here at all. It's completely OT. We're talking about what was just released, not the lineage of NiMScripts. MOBProgs was just a list of mud commands, not a true scripting language, but it did offer some rudimentary functionality, except unlike on a MUSH it was only for "mobiles" (actors). Anyway, Diku is not conducive to an easily accomplished scripting language because of its fundamental mob/obj/room dilineation, which freed up MUSH developers to incorperate online scripting early on as a fundamental part of MUSH. So, this arduous task is complete here.

Keep in mind there is still the Diku][ scripting language (is that DG? I don't think it is..) which is pretty good too, but many of the features present in NiMUD aren't present anywhere else and NIMScripts is far beyond the competition. I'm sure a better (or maybe a rehashed or even stolen version, preferably not -- preferably one with attribution as the license suggests, and of course non-commercial) of NIMScripts or DG or any language will be in the future of MUD software. I personally wouldn't write such a thing today if I undertook a new project.

NIMScripts is the first to offer a suite of online developer tools for MUD scripts that are truly enriched with a real-time debugger, building relationships and a core function list that is extensive. The whole package is mature, so I feel confident it will be well received by someone.

Last edited by locke : 03-18-2009 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 03-18-2009, 04:14 PM   #42
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
EDIT: (I traced the IP, it's in Pennsylvania, anyone know if that is where Locke lives?)
This is "online vigilantism" and I become the target of your overzealous stalker tendencies. I have contacted WHOA in the past about these issues and we are monitoring what happens because of the actions of users on the Wikipedia who relentlessly pursue me and cause irreparable damage. I no longer feel "safe" in the MUD community because of its unscrupulous history. Owen Emlen is a crook and mean, and so were Jason Lambert and the others who have been manipulating the articles on Online Creation etc at the Wikipedia to include personal information, logging my IPs, etc.

If you are doing this to somehow prove something, it's only really proving me that you are for some reason obsessed with this topic and thus acting out some inner urge to do harm to others. I suggest taking a break from the computer for a while and relax yourself.
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Old 03-18-2009, 07:58 PM   #43
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
The only issues here seem to be the ones you keep bringing up, even though the horse is dead, do you have to continue to beat it?

We've already established -- including my admittance that they are probably not related in the source code aside from the MS-DOS Batch file language variable syntax (which may have earlier roots), that is DG and NiMScripts -- any continued nitpicking is to appease your ego and has no real point in this discussion.



CthulhuMUD IS the direct predecessor to NiMUD. It's the same source code. NiMUD grew out of the demise of the original CthulhuMUD in 1993. CthulhuMUD-related source code (NiMUD) was released to people in December 1993 and written in September / October 1993. The Isles, NiMUD and what was left from CthulhuMUD's short 2 month lifespan are all the same project and all authored or co-authored by me. It's the same thing repackaged or private labeled, derived or evolved, however you want to put that. You're trying to convince me that these are somehow different. Aside from their name, they are not different -- merely evolutions of the same base of code over time. CthulhuMUD became NiMUD (the public package) and The Isles (the name of my mud that runs NiMUD software). It is NOT cthulhumud.org -- the CthulhuMUD that runs today.

Along with OLC, the HIT_FUN() feature was added for CthulhuMUD. At the same time we added "hit_suck_disarm" (for the Lovecraftian Flying Polyp attack) and "hit_vorpal" (for the vorpal sword), which has become a popular, signature feature of NiMUD.



This is exactly what I'm talking about. We are not trying to prove that. I have not said that. Someone posted that on Wikipedia and it failed the litmus test and thus was removed, apparently by Fizban. In fact, I established that three messages ago and you're continuing to argue it as if we are arguing the counterpoint, which no one is. You have some serious control issues. You should re-evaluate your posture toward these discussions because they are probably unhealthy for you.



I don't know if that WoC assertion is true or not, but it's irrelevant since this is not the discussion here at all. It's completely OT. We're talking about what was just released, not the lineage of NiMScripts. MOBProgs was just a list of mud commands, not a true scripting language, but it did offer some rudimentary functionality, except unlike on a MUSH it was only for "mobiles" (actors). Anyway, Diku is not conducive to an easily accomplished scripting language because of its fundamental mob/obj/room dilineation, which freed up MUSH developers to incorperate online scripting early on as a fundamental part of MUSH. So, this arduous task is complete here.

Keep in mind there is still the Diku][ scripting language (is that DG? I don't think it is..) which is pretty good too, but many of the features present in NiMUD aren't present anywhere else and NIMScripts is far beyond the competition. I'm sure a better (or maybe a rehashed or even stolen version, preferably not -- preferably one with attribution as the license suggests, and of course non-commercial) of NIMScripts or DG or any language will be in the future of MUD software. I personally wouldn't write such a thing today if I undertook a new project.

NIMScripts is the first to offer a suite of online developer tools for MUD scripts that are truly enriched with a real-time debugger, building relationships and a core function list that is extensive. The whole package is mature, so I feel confident it will be well received by someone.
I don't think it's a dead horse at all in your post right before this one you were still claiming NiMUD was derived from Merc 2.0 and KaVir just proved it wasn't. Discussions don't just conveniently end when you get proven wrong.

As far as NiMUD being far beyond any competition I'd have to disagree. It looks like it can do some things DG cann;t do but the reverse appears to be true as well. Moreso though I'd rank LexiScript as being above both. LexiScript is used in LexiMUD (a CircleMUD Derivative which no current version has been released to the public, it is the code that Aliens Vs. Predators runs on) and is derived directly from DG. LexiScript is not publicly available but goes well beyond DG and from what I can tell from your posts, well beyond NimScript as well. I have access to a copy of LexiMUD (a smaller MUD than AvP that is ran by a staff member of AvP with the owner of AvP's permission) and have played around with LexiScript on it and can vouch that unlike DG LexiScript is fully OO and whereas DG can do most anything in-game. Raze the Dead's (another LexiMUD) entire combat system is written in LexiScripts which is something that from what you've posted does not appear to be within NimScript's capabilities.
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Old 03-18-2009, 08:12 PM   #44
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
This is "online vigilantism" and I become the target of your overzealous stalker tendencies. I have contacted WHOA in the past about these issues and we are monitoring what happens because of the actions of users on the Wikipedia who relentlessly pursue me and cause irreparable damage. I no longer feel "safe" in the MUD community because of its unscrupulous history. Owen Emlen is a crook and mean, and so were Jason Lambert and the others who have been manipulating the articles on Online Creation etc at the Wikipedia to include personal information, logging my IPs, etc.

If you are doing this to somehow prove something, it's only really proving me that you are for some reason obsessed with this topic and thus acting out some inner urge to do harm to others. I suggest taking a break from the computer for a while and relax yourself.
I don't see how me posting the IP of the person who changed the Wikipedia page and asking if it was you was " vigilante-ism" I believe it's 100% logical that I'd have suspected it was you considering DG Scripts has had a Wikipedia page for over four years and not until earlier this month around the same time you came back to the MUD Community had anyone ever edited it to hint that it was derived from NiMScript. As for your WHOA comments, I sincerely feel you suffer from paranoia and need to seek mental help.

a.) I don't stalk you.
b.) Your reputation in the MUD community has been in shambles for almost a decade, I haven't harmed it irreparably, and in fact nothing online can cause irreparable damage to your reputation. It's the internet, none of us know you in real life, everything is more or less anonymous.
c.) If you feel unsafe because of what some meanie on the forum said I'd suggest going and giving mommy a big hug so she can make it all better.
d.) I'm not Owen. Yes he is scum for breaking the Merc license, the DIKU license, and your license, but I'm not him, he's not in this discussion and he has nothing to do with this discussion.
e.) Tyche (I assume you meant Tyche anyway, his name is Jon Lambert, not Jason Lambert.) is not a crook. You've claimed once before on TMC that he was "irreputable" and I laughed at you then. He is thought by many to be 'THE' best coder in the MUD community and one of the most knowledgeable when it comes to random facts like when specific pieces of code were written. If Tyche edited Wikipedia pages regarding your OLC it was to make them be more accurate, period.
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Old 03-18-2009, 11:28 PM   #45
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
I don't think it's a dead horse at all in your post right before this one you were still claiming NiMUD was derived from Merc 2.0 and KaVir just proved it wasn't. Discussions don't just conveniently end when you get proven wrong.
No, you've misread that. I was saying that these messages prove The Isles OLC was originally written for a version of Merc (probably 2.0b or c) that was not 2.2 since it was already developed in September 1993 and therefore could not have been written for Merc 2.2 until Merc 2.2 came out.

Regardless of that, I'm telling you, as one of the authors, that yes indeed we started with a version of Merc prior to 2.2 - this is apparent from the r.g.m.d and from my own recollection, since I remember updating OLC to work with 2.2 shortly before the code was released.

No, I do not think DG scripts is based on NIMScripts for crying out loud!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
As far as NiMUD being far beyond any competition I'd have to disagree. It looks like it can do some things DG cann;t do but the reverse appears to be true as well. Moreso though I'd rank LexiScript as being above both. LexiScript is used in LexiMUD (a CircleMUD Derivative which no current version has been released to the public, it is the code that Aliens Vs. Predators runs on) and is derived directly from DG.
Nah I'm not yet convinced that it has some radical feature that is somehow "worlds beyond" NiMScripts. I don't know what you mean by "Truly OO" but the level of functionality I've acheived with NIMScripts is already adequate for the job. It seems like you've turned back on your statement that you weren't trying to do a d!ck comparison between NIMScripts and DG, and instead have brought in this "unavailable" LexiScripts to start attacking me.

The one change I would make if I cared would be to use this.that, but I've done it another way. It's truly arbitrary and not something I'm interested in wasting my time with. I can do anything I want in NIMScripts already, though occaisionally I do see a need to add a function here or there. Also, I've never bothered to use my extended data types in the language, even though I spent time programming them. Those functions are very MUSH-like / LISP-like, and could be used to traverse various lists and/or trees and/or multi dimensional arrays stored in variables.

Instead of %actor.name% it's name(%actor%), big deal. It wouldn't take long for me to add functionality there to do that . . . but I think it would only further confuse matters.

Code:
LIST-FUNCTIONS (Script)

Functions that manipulate string lists (list/stacks); lists are
space-seperated and can use double quotes (") to contain multiple words in
a single list entry; similar to an array or linked list, but for strings.
example: word word "multiple words" words
index:    1    2     3               4
push(s,v)      pushes string v onto stack s
pop(s)         pops the top value off the stack and returns it
lrem(s,v)      similar to strp(), removes all occurances of v from s
sort(s,m)      not implemented
lrnd(s)        returns a random value from stack s
lshift(s)      shifts all values of the stack one left
rshift(s)      shifts all values of the stack one right
empty(s)       returns true if stack s is empty
users          returns a stack of all of the connected users
foreach(s,c)   not implemented, executes code c with %stack% variable s
each(s)        not implemented
Quote:
That unlike DG LexiScript is fully OO and whereas DG can do most anything in-game. Raze the Dead's (another LexiMUD) entire combat system is written in LexiScripts which is something that from what you've posted does not appear to be within NimScript's capabilities.
You could write a combat system with NiMScripts, but its not something I've done because I already have a combat system in the mud. You must only be basing these assertions off my statements, instead of actually thinking about what NiMScripts does. Of course using the NIMScripts to make combat is not difficult, in fact, NIMScripts already augments the combat system, so one could assume that you would be able to write the whole combat system, even though this would be duplicating work since Diku already comes with a combat system. It would be far easier and more efficient NOT to use an interpreted language for the combat system, since that is a performance sensitive part of the MUD. That doesn't, however, mean it couldn't be done.

Some of the combat-related functions are heal(), hurt(), bomb(), healall(), elude(), setposition(), setkarma(), foe(), has(), check() and skill(), for example. I suppose you could also include things like maxhits(), str(), int(), etc.. also the bonus() function.

Part of my argument for it being the best is because of the live debugger and other features. But if you're here just to one-up me, stick it in your rear instead.

Last edited by locke : 03-19-2009 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 03-18-2009, 11:51 PM   #46
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

I don't see how me posting the IP of the person who changed the Wikipedia page and asking if it was you was " vigilante-ism" I believe it's 100% logical that I'd have suspected it was you considering DG Scripts has had a Wikipedia page for over four years and not until earlier this month around the same time you came back to the MUD Community had anyone ever edited it to hint that it was derived from NiMScript. As for your WHOA comments, I sincerely feel you suffer from paranoia and need to seek mental help.

a.) I don't stalk you.

"Where does Locke live??" -- Fizban

b.) Your reputation in the MUD community has been in shambles for almost a decade, I haven't harmed it irreparably, and in fact nothing online can cause irreparable damage to your reputation. It's the internet, none of us know you in real life, everything is more or less anonymous.

Actually, I don't think my "reputation is in shambles", only you, a hater, seems to think that way. I cannot speak for those who dislike me: they will always be there, misunderstanding me and spending their time pointlessly arguing with me. I have helped you, period. Chris did not want to release the code at all, it was I who released OLC after convincing him to permit it. As for the opinions of the folks at MudBytes, or Kyndig, those people have proven to be sub-par, violent and probably unhappy people. I cannot help them further.

I certainly don't gauge my entire life's work on the work I do in this community. If I did I'd be a destitute hippie living out of garbage cans and mudding at the public library. (Not to mention apparently Owen Emlen's personal slave.)

I'm sure KaVir and Tyche will chime in at some point to join in the Locke bashing contest. Maybe you could get Kyndig over here to threaten me again? Or maybe Samson can come and complain about people using his open source software. Why don't you pick on somebody you're own size, instead of bothering someone who helps you and your community for $0? Hey, maybe Owen will buy a house with all of my hard work.

c.) If you feel unsafe because of what some meanie on the forum said I'd suggest going and giving mommy a big hug so she can make it all better.

Mom's dead, kid. She's been dead since I was 8 years old. It goes to show how little you really know about me.

d.) I'm not Owen. Yes he is scum for breaking the Merc license, the DIKU license, and your license, but I'm not him, he's not in this discussion and he has nothing to do with this discussion.

No one is accusing you of being Owen. I've called Owen but he has yet to return my calls; but he has a public life, I'm sure I'll get a chance to talk to him if I feel it's necessary.

e.) Tyche (I assume you meant Tyche anyway, his name is Jon Lambert, not Jason Lambert.) is not a crook. You've claimed once before on TMC that he was "irreputable" and I laughed at you then. He is thought by many to be 'THE' best coder in the MUD community and one of the most knowledgeable when it comes to random facts like when specific pieces of code were written. If Tyche edited Wikipedia pages regarding your OLC it was to make them be more accurate, period.

I didn't really mention Tyche. I don't consider him to be a nemesis, but I do expect him to chime in when others do.

REALLY? Thanks for clearing that up! I was blaming someone named Jason Lambert from my university, who seemed to know a bit about the situation when he confronted me. He's a bully (JLambert), though, too -- at least to me. He has made them inaccurate and, along with Nandesuka, has redacted evidence and frankly, I ****ing hate those people. I hate them for their slander, their malicious behavior and complete irrationality. I hate Nandesuka for bothering me in my personal e-mail, for maliciously permitting users to post personal data about me, for lying about my dead friend and obscuring our impact. OLC is a part of a number of MUDs, not "just a couple" or "a few" but dozens of MUDs.

I do have to say though that JLambert, whomever that is, has not won every battle. But, let me quote you this "greatly improved article" on its perception of what my MUD contributed to the open source community:

"The in 1994 released Merc derived codebase The Isles featured online creation, written by Christopher Woodward, and dubbed OLC by co-developer Herb Gilliland."

With a reference that reads "Herb Gilliland, Christopher Woodward (1994) The Isles 1.1" even though it was released in December, written in September and was copyrighted in October!

1) "The in 1994 released" ??? I think you guys need a B-12 shot for being such ignoramouses.

2) I wrote OLC for years after Chris wrote it. He only worked on the project for a month or two, and the version I released had plenty of code in it from me. Specifically, the ability to type the names of bits instead of writing just numbers which is what Chris wrote. I did dub it OLC though, at least that phrase is correct. We did not copy it from Kalgen, we did not model it after Hidden Worlds per se, we wrote it ourselves.

3) All you do is censor the author. Screw them and screw Wikipedia. It bothers me how much you losers lie about things just to make yourselves look better -- to whom one can only imagine.

Last edited by locke : 03-18-2009 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:48 AM   #47
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Listen to the sound of one hand clapping:
Code:

Code:
                ()
                JL
                ||
                LJ
          _,--"""""""---.
        ,'               `.
       /                   \
      J                     L
      F                     L
     J                      J
     |                      J
  ___L______________        J
 /,---------------. "".     J
JJ   /     \/      |  J     J
LL  J      J       |   L    J
JJ  J #    J #     |   L    |
 \\__`.___,_`.____,'   F    |
  ""-.---------....___/     |
     |_T--+---+--.,._       |
       |--|----\---\-`.     |
       |__|____J___J_ F     F
      _|__|____|___|_/      L
     |                      L
     |____________________M-K

Last edited by locke : 03-19-2009 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:49 AM   #48
locke
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Listen to the sound of one hand slapping:
Code:
                                                                      .uuu
    z@#"%c                      .uuzm**"""""*%mu..             z*"` .e@#N      
   @!!!R.  #c              .z*"                    ^*c       z    dT!!!!!>     
  '!!!!!!N   "i         u*"                            #s  :"   @?!!!!!!!R     
  t!!!!!!!#u   "i    .@                                  ^$   :R!!!!!!!!!X     
  '!!!!!!!!!#c   "i:#                                      ?> R!!!!!!!!!!X     
  '!!!!!!!!!!!N   @                                         4W!!!!!!!!!!!>     
  '!!!!!!!!!!!!Ru"                                           ?!!!!!!!!!!X      
  'X!!!!!!!!!!!9~                                      .  .  'X!!!!!!!!!6      
   R!!!!!!!!!!tF                                     z$#`   h &!!UR!!!!!F      
   ?!!!!!$X!!!$                                    .@       X $WTR!!!!!X       
    M!!!!!i#U!E  .                                @F        ! FdR!!!!!!f       
    'X!!!!!#c'?u@#"*$N.                         :$          F'9!!!!!!!@        
     9!!!!!!!?NM      ^*c                      dF          ' @!!!!!!!X>        
      R!!!!!!!!&         "e                   d            K<!!!!!!!XF         
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        t!!!!!!!#            ^N            :"      .e$"^  Fn!!!!!XP            
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                    'N    4$$$$$@$$$)$$#$$k4$$$$$$$$$E :$                      
                       ?>  "$$$$$$":$$$W$$$ "$$$$$$$$   %                      
                      :"           ? ^#*"  S  "$$$$$     ?                     
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                        '*.      W'$$$$$$$$FM h    u#                          
                           ^*muz* % $$$$$$":    `"                             
                                   # ^**" d                                    
                                     "***"

Last edited by locke : 03-19-2009 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 06:38 AM   #49
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
I'm sure KaVir and Tyche will chime in at some point to join in the Locke bashing contest.
I'm not interested in bashing (or I'd start talking about stripped-out copyright notices). I'm interested in mud history being recorded as accurately as possible, because I think it's important for the mud community to preserve as much of our history as we can. I know how easy it is to mix up dates, because I've accidently done it myself - I even had to go back and correct my written history of GodWars once the old usenet archives were made available, when I realised I'd placed the start date several months too early.

I do think it's valuable to trace back the origins of specific codebases, and even of notable features such as OLC and scripting - but this has to be done with great care, to ensure that we record history, not revise it. It's insulting to other mud developers (such as Thoric and myself) when you incorrectly claim that our work is based on yours - but far more importantly it can also cause serious confusion should other people read those claims before they can be corrected, and potentially devalue accurate sources by providing conflicting information. That's why I felt it was important to verify the implication about the origin of DG scripts immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
But, let me quote you this "greatly improved article" on its perception of what my MUD contributed to the open source community:

"The in 1994 released Merc derived codebase The Isles featured online creation, written by Christopher Woodward, and dubbed OLC by co-developer Herb Gilliland."

With a reference that reads "Herb Gilliland, Christopher Woodward (1994) The Isles 1.1" even though it was released in December, written in September and was copyrighted in October!
In fairness, the 1993 reference was a post made at 7:02pm on 31st December 1993 in which you stated "I have decided that I will only be giving out the code to the single person who originally asked; and only someone else who can offer me a site...The original requester of some code, however, will be recieving the code soon, on the condition that he does NOT distribute it to anyone."

So less than 5 hours before the end of 1993 you'd decided to give the code "soon", to one person, and made clear that it wasn't a public release. Now perhaps in those 5 hours you did suddenly change your mind and decide to make an immediate public release - but there's no evidence that even suggests that might have been the case. On the other hand, there is a post you made on 29th July 1994 in which you state that you've just released The Isles 1.0 with OLC.

So while you might not like the revised article, it does fit with the verifable facts.
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:43 AM   #50
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
In fairness, the 1993 reference was a post made at 7:02pm on 31st December 1993 in which you stated "I have decided that I will only be giving out the code to the single person who originally asked; and only someone else who can offer me a site...The original requester of some code, however, will be recieving the code soon, on the condition that he does NOT distribute it to anyone."

So less than 5 hours before the end of 1993 you'd decided to give the code "soon", to one person, and made clear that it wasn't a public release. Now perhaps in those 5 hours you did suddenly change your mind and decide to make an immediate public release - but there's no evidence that even suggests that might have been the case. On the other hand, there is a post you made on 29th July 1994 in which you state that you've just released The Isles 1.0 with OLC.

So while you might not like the revised article, it does fit with the verifable facts.
Ok, first of all you cannot assume a fact is true just because there is only some evidence that points to the existence of a particular version. Although it's hard to find real evidence of anything digital, let's talk about the fact that Isles15 was already working its way across the internet.

I called this version 15 and the next 16, even though they predated the Isles 1.1, which is the cited one. The reason these versions predate The Isles 1.1 is because they were the original versions that were released as "The Isles" with little or no mention of NiMUD. The Isles 1.1 was an oversight of my childhood, it could have been called something else. People virally downloaded TheIsles15.tar.gz and its sequel source TheIsles16.code.tar.gz, but complained about it not being 100% compatible with Merc 2.2. (They had to install it themselves.) It took a year before someone, Jason Dinkel, ported it.

In the beginning I wanted "TheIsles" to be as popular as "Merc", but I didn't have the desire to actually follow through and ended up making NiMUD instead when it became apparent the only thing they wanted was OLC. Since then, NiMUD has garnered its own following, but at the time these things were rather new.

It's certainly not very fraudulent that I claim the October 1993 copyright date. Even if you claim there is no proof or something, the fact remains that it WAS written in 1993 and not in 1994, if you want to take this as fact.

Plus, as the co-author and primary project lead, I'm TELLING YOU, it was available in 1993 and at the end of 1993 it was released to some group of MUDders. It was basically anybody who wrote me an email got a copy. That's a pretty liberal distribution scheme, and this is how someone ELSE may have uploaded it to Thoric in 1994.

If you took personal feelings into the equation because someone asserted something on Wikipedia, and it was later disproved, you should be happy that this happened at least in one way: you got to clear up any misperceptions and you were able to provide corrolated evidence, helping to shape the picture in some pseudo-accurate way. Harboring a grudge about it won't get you very far, nor will it make you happy; instead, you should just let it go.

I *STILL* remember you saying something positive about Worldgen.c, but anyway since then you've adamantly denied it. That's pretty sad. I mean that literally, not tongue-in-cheek. Like: "That's sad, Kavir, thought you were a fan."
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:03 PM   #51
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
No, I do not think DG scripts is based on NIMScripts for crying out loud!
Err? You quoted me stating that NiMUD was derived from Merc 2.2 not 2.0 and then replied with that.... My quote didn't even mention DG....

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
Nah I'm not yet convinced that it has some radical feature that is somehow "worlds beyond" NiMScripts.
Worlds above was never even mentioned by me, I stated it was above it in my eyes.

Then again I'm not convinced that "NIMScripts is far beyond the competition" either, and that was your wording. It might be better suited for some tasks, it may even be a bit better overall, but it is you and not me that is claiming said superiority. As for the comment of Lexi being incomparable due to not being released below are examples of two scripts written in it.

Lexi

Code:
if %actor.staff%
  if %cmd% == slay 
    if %character(%arg[1]%)%
      set victim %character(%arg.1%)%
      if !%actor.variable(slay_victim)%
        send %victim% %actor.name% helps you become part of the dead.
      else
        set slay_victim %actor.slay_victim%
        eval slay_victim %slay_victim%
        send %victim% %slay_victim%
      end
      if !%actor.variable(slay_self)%
        send %actor% You help %victim.name% become part of the dead.
      else
        set slay_self %actor.slay_self%
        eval slay_self %slay_self%
        send %actor% %slay_self%
      end
      if !%actor.variable(slay_others)%
        echoaround2 %actor% %victim% %actor.name% helps %victim.name% become part of the dead.
      else
        set slay_others %actor.slay_others%
        eval slay_others %slay_others%
        echoaround2 %actor% %victim% %slay_others%
      end
      eval death %victim.maxhp% * 2
      damage %victim% %death%
    else
      send %actor% Slay whom?
    end
  elseif slaymessage == %cmd%
    set car %arg[1]%
    popfront arg
    if %car% == self
      set %actor%.slay_self %arg%
      send %actor% Slay message sent for yourself.
    elseif %car% == victim
      set %actor%.slay_victim %arg%
      send %actor% Slay message set for the victim.
    elseif %car% == others
      set %actor%.slay_others %arg%
      send %actor% Slay message set for everyone but you and the victim.
    else
      send %actor% Type slaymessage self <message> to set the message you see when you slay someone.
      send %actor% Type slaymessage victim <message> to set the message the person you are slaying seed when slain.
      send %actor% Type slaymessage others <message> to set the message people in the other than yourself anf the victim will see.
      send %actor% Use variables in these messages as you normally would, ie. %%actor.name%%.
    end
  else
    return 0
  end
else
  return 0
end

The differences aren't gigantic between the two in that example, but the LexiScript is 4 lines shorter than the DG version would be (I wrote a DG version and originally tried posting it but it made this post too many characters for the forum to allow me to post). The main difference in this instance is mostly that DG has no popfront, echoaround2, [#] support, puts %% around commands as well as variables (lexi does not), and uses different syntax to save variables to a players pfile than lexi. Below is another example of lexi, this time doing something DG would have a MUCH harder time being made to do if even possible.

Code:
if (%actor.level% < 101)
    return 0
    halt
end

set coordlist 0x0
set masterroomlist %self.room%
set checklist %self.room% 0 0
set lowy 0
set lowx 0
set highy 0
set highx 0

while (%checklist.count%)

    if (%checklist.strlen% > 15000)
        send %actor% Area too large!
        halt
    end
    popfront checklist room
    popfront checklist coord1
    popfront checklist coord2

    set coord %coord1%x%coord2%
    set index %coordlist.find(%coord%)%
    set statuslist.%index% %statuslist.word(%index%)%0
    
    set exitlist n e s w

    foreach exitlist dir

        if (%dir% == n)
            set newcoord1 %coord1%
            eval newcoord2 %coord2% + 1
        elseif (%dir% == e)
            eval newcoord1 %coord1% + 1
            set newcoord2 %coord2%
        elseif (%dir% == s)
            set newcoord1 %coord1%
            eval newcoord2 %coord2% - 1
        elseif (%dir% == w)
            eval newcoord1 %coord1% - 1
            set newcoord2 %coord2%
        end

        set newcoord %newcoord1%x%newcoord2%
        set newcoordIndex %coordlist.find(%newcoord%)%
        #if the direction exists and the room in that direction is not already used
        if (%room.newexit(%dir%)% && %room.newexit(%dir%).room% && !%masterroomlist.find(%room.newexit(%dir%).room%)%)
            #if there is nothing in the new spot
            if (!%newcoordIndex%)
                pushback coordlist %newcoord%
                pushback statuslist 0

                pushback checklist %room.newexit(%dir%).room% %newcoord1% %newcoord2%

            #if the new spot has a coordinate and is not a room already used
            elseif (!%masterroomlist.find(%room.newexit(%dir%).room%)%)
                pushback checklist %room.newexit(%dir%).room% %newcoord1% %newcoord2%
            end
            #add room to the masterlist
            pushback masterroomlist %room.newexit(%dir%).room%
            
        #no exit
        elseif (!%room.newexit(%dir%)% || !%room.newexit(%dir%).room%)
            #north is special because an extra coordinate is used to top off the room under it
            if (%dir% == n)
                if (%newcoordIndex%)
                    set statuslist.%newcoordIndex% %statuslist.word(%newcoordIndex%)%s
                else
                    pushback coordlist %newcoord%
                    pushback statuslist s

                end
                if (%newcoord2% > %highy%)
                    set highy %newcoord2%
                end
            elseif (%dir% == e && %coord1% > %highx%)
                set highx %coord1%
            elseif (%dir% == s && %coord2% < %lowy%)
                set lowy %coord2%
            elseif (%dir% == w && %coord1% < %lowx%)
                set lowx %coord1%
            end
            set statuslist.%index% %statuslist.word(%index%)%%dir%
        end
    done

done
set statuslist.1 %statuslist.word(1)%X

while (%highy% >= %lowy%)
    set tempx %lowx%
    if (%line%)
        set line %line%.
    else
        set line .
    end
    while (%tempx% <= %highx%)
        set coordcheck %tempx%x%highy%
        set coord %coordlist.find(%coordcheck%)%
        set eastcoord %eval(%tempx% + 1)%x%highy%
        set eastcoordcheck %coordlist.find(%eastcoord%)%
        set westcoord %eval(%tempx% - 1)%x%highy%
        set westcoordcheck %coordlist.find(%westcoord%)%
        if (!%coord% && ((!%eastcoordcheck% && !%westcoordcheck%) || !%statuslist.word(%westcoordcheck%).contains(e)%))
            set line %line%..
        elseif (!%coord% && %eastcoordcheck% && %westcoordcheck%)
            set line %line%.
        else
            if (%statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(w)%)
                set line %line%|
            elseif (!%statuslist.word(%westcoordcheck%).contains(e)%)
                set line %line%.
            end
            #use background colors so we can have an underscore for original room if the room has a south
            if (%statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(X)% && %statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(s)%)
                set line %line%_
            elseif (%statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(X)%)
                set line %line%.

            elseif (%statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(?)%)
                set line %line%?
            elseif (%statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(s)%)
                set line %line%_
            else
                set line %line%.
            end
            if (%statuslist.word(%coord%).contains(e)% && (!%eastcoordcheck% || !%statuslist.word(%eastcoordcheck%).contains(w)%))

                set line %line%|
            end
        end
        eval tempx %tempx% + 1
    done
    set line %line%$_
    eval highy %highy% - 1
done

if (%arg.1% == noecho)
    send %actor% $_%line%
else
    echo $_%line%
end
(Note the first comparisons were both written by me, this one was not, and was written by a staff member of AvP.)

Looking at your list:

push(s,v) pushes string v onto stack s
pop(s) pops the top value off the stack and returns it

Lexi has both. DG does not, but it can emulate the behavior of them like this:

Let's use the following string for setup in all of the below scenarios:

set string apples pears oranges

set string peaches %string%

string now equals peaches apples pears oranges

set string %string.cdr%

string now equals pears oranges

set string %string.car%

string now equals apples

You can also use extract to retrieve a specific word from a string like so:

extract word2 2 %string%

word2 now equals pears

Continuing with your list:

lrem(s,v) similar to strp(), removes all occurances of v from s

DG can not do this, I'm less certain concerning Lexi though as I'm not as versed with Lexi as i am DG.

Lexi can do everything else on the list, including these:

foreach(s,c) not implemented, executes code c with %stack% variable s
each(s) not implemented

foreach is in fact used in the above example.

Truly, NIMScript looks decent perhaps better than DG and Lexi, I just don't see it as "far beyond the competition" which is in fact what you advertised it as being.
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:17 PM   #52
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
"Where does Locke live??" -- Fizban
Quote properly when quoting. "I traced the IP, it's in Pennsylvania, anyone know if that is where Locke lives?" I asked if you lived in Pennsylvania, I did not ask where you lived. The question was solely to confirm if it was you that edited the DG Scripts Wikipedia page and not to "stalk you" or make you feel "unsafe".

Quote:
Actually, I don't think my "reputation is in shambles", only you, a hater, seems to think that way.
Quote:
users on the Wikipedia who relentlessly pursue me and cause irreparable damage.
Irreparably damaged and in shambles aren't really that different, are they?

Quote:
Maybe you could get Kyndig over here to threaten me again?
Kyndig is no longer a member of the MUD Community. He wiped his hands of MudMagic about a year ago when he divorced Jaelli. His ex-wife now runs MudMagic's hosting and the community site with forums etc. no longer exists at all.

Quote:
Mom's dead, kid. She's been dead since I was 8 years old. It goes to show how little you really know about me.
Not my responsibility to know the life story of every poster. Your life story doesn't really matter to me either, the way you conduct yourself on forums does.

Quote:
OLC is a part of a number of MUDs, not "just a couple" or "a few" but dozens of MUDs.
OLC in general may be. There are versions of OLC though which have very little in common with the version of OLC that you and Woodward wrote. (Oasis OLC is one such example.)

Quote:
It bothers me how much you losers lie about things just to make yourselves look better -- to whom one can only imagine.
Odd, that's the exact thing which you do that bothers me so much. Except I've seen you tell so many untruths that I've started suspecting that you're a compulsive liar and just simply no longer remember the truth anymore.
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Old 03-19-2009, 01:09 PM   #53
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
Ok, first of all you cannot assume a fact is true just because there is only some evidence that points to the existence of a particular version.
You cannot assume at all, only report the verifiable facts. That is what the article attempts to do - it reports the facts which have evidence to back them up. Now personally I dislike many of Wikipedia's policies about references, but even I agree that there should be something a bit more substantial than one guy's memories of something that happened 15 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
It's certainly not very fraudulent that I claim the October 1993 copyright date. Even if you claim there is no proof or something, the fact remains that it WAS written in 1993 and not in 1994, if you want to take this as fact.
Sure, but the article discusses the release date, not the copyright date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
I *STILL* remember you saying something positive about Worldgen.c, but anyway since then you've adamantly denied it.
I've denied it because it never happened. What possible motive could I have for lying about it?
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:24 PM   #54
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Ok, first of all you cannot assume a fact is true
Can so. Facts are always true. If they were false they wouldn't be facts.
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:30 PM   #55
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Err? You quoted me stating that NiMUD was derived from Merc 2.2 not 2.0 and then replied with that.... My quote didn't even mention DG....

I'm not talking WoC and I'm just asserting that we have information here that isn't taken into consideration on the Wikipedia page. Who cares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Worlds above was never even mentioned by me, I stated it was above it in my eyes.

Then again I'm not convinced that "NIMScripts is far beyond the competition" either, and that was your wording. It might be better suited for some tasks, it may even be a bit better overall, but it is you and not me that is claiming said superiority. As for the comment of Lexi being incomparable due to not being released below are examples of two scripts written in it.
Well, then you're missing the point and I can't help you further. Rest assured, NIM has a better scripting debugger, more powerful scripts, and is very easy to add new functions to. Good luck getting it to work in anything other than a NiMUD, though. It would take some effort to get it working in Merc, and the feature set may decrease due to the difference. You may also need to write special functions for your MUD so it handles all of your functionality. There is probably some easily transportable core feature set, however. Read the install guide for Merc that is hosted on MudBytes (or other places, and is included with NiM5 source).

The fact that you can deploy every aspect of the MUD uniquely using NIMScripts is very advanced for Diku.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post

Lexi

Code:
if %actor.staff%
  if %cmd% == slay 
    if %character(%arg[1]%)%
      set victim %character(%arg.1%)%
      if !%actor.variable(slay_victim)%
        send %victim% %actor.name% helps you become part of the dead.
      else
        set slay_victim %actor.slay_victim%
        eval slay_victim %slay_victim%
        send %victim% %slay_victim%
      end
.
.
.
      send %actor% Type slaymessage self <message> to set the message you see when you slay someone.
      send %actor% Type slaymessage victim <message> to set the message the person you are slaying seed when slain.
      send %actor% Type slaymessage others <message> to set the message people in the other than yourself anf the victim will see.
      send %actor% Use variables in these messages as you normally would, ie. %%actor.name%%.
    end
  else
    return 0
  end
else
  return 0
end
This could all be done differently with NIMScripts and it would look different, but be functionally similar. So, this doesn't really prove anything and just advertises some unavailable scripting language based on DG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post

Looking at your list:

push(s,v) pushes string v onto stack s
pop(s) pops the top value off the stack and returns it

Lexi has both. DG does not, but it can emulate the behavior of them like this:
Interesting. I'd love to look at Lexi's source if it becomes available to see if any of my functions have ended up there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post

Let's use the following string for setup in all of the below scenarios:

set string apples pears oranges
set string peaches %string% * string now equals peaches apples pears oranges

NIMScripts:

Code:
%s% pears;
%s% peaches %s%;
%s% oranges %s%;
%s% apples %s%;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
set string %string.cdr% * string now equals pears oranges
set string %string.car% * string now equals apples
NIMScripts:
Code:
%apples% word({apples oranges},2) word({apples oranges faces places},1);
%apples% word(%apples%, 2);
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
You can also use extract to retrieve a specific word from a string like so:

extract word2 2 %string% * word2 now equals pears

Already done with above, the word() function does this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Continuing with your list:
lrem(s,v) similar to strp(), removes all occurances of v from s
DG can not do this, I'm less certain concerning Lexi though as I'm not as versed with Lexi as i am DG.

Lexi can do everything else on the list, including these:

foreach(s,c) not implemented, executes code c with %stack% variable s
each(s) not implemented

foreach is in fact used in the above example.

There is no need to write a foreach() because it is handled this way, which is why it is not implemented:


Code:
%somelist% {a b c d e f};
label(loop);
if ( wordcount(%somelist%), { goto({endloop}); } );
* perform some operation on the list
%somelist% pop(%somelist%);
goto({loop});
label(endloop);
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
Truly, NIMScript looks decent perhaps better than DG and Lexi, I just don't see it as "far beyond the competition" which is in fact what you advertised it as being.
The fact that it can deploy any aspect of the MUD makes it significantly more powerful. It also implements an MSP and MXP layer, with some Pueblo.

Last edited by locke : 03-19-2009 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:41 PM   #56
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
You cannot assume at all, only report the verifiable facts. That is what the article attempts to do - it reports the facts which have evidence to back them up. Now personally I dislike many of Wikipedia's policies about references, but even I agree that there should be something a bit more substantial than one guy's memories of something that happened 15 years ago.
I have a pretty long memory, KaVir. Plus, talking to Chris' parents reinforces certain memories making them more permanent. Besides, most people listen to the author when they are discussing their work, not other people's perceptions, as priority. That is what has been lost on the Wikipedia article. You seem to think your piecemeal evidence is somehow more substantial than the recollections of the participants. That ignores a significant amount of data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
Sure, but the article discusses the release date, not the copyright date.
Only after I copyrighted it. That's why it is malicious. Before I copyrighted it on the Federal level, the article used a copyright date. Instead of correcting the date, you or they merely obscured it with a non-factual date from your circumstantial evidence, merely to retain the date 1994 instead of 1993, reinforcing the argument that Armageddon's OLC, which only had a single room editor at the time, and had not been released until many years later if at all, is somehow more substantial and thus warrants a longer section of the article and some sort of emphasis above and beyond The Isles OLC.

By the way, I of course worked on Aldara3 with Morg, mainly vicariously by sharing code directly with him, so the Morgenes era of Armageddon means an era where I was contributing in some form. I'm not claiming that Morg didn't come up with many features on his own, but I can assert that I shared information with Morg. If he chooses to deny this, well, that's his problem. I met Morg in 1999 at Tyr Na Nog in Raleigh-Durham, NC, but the meeting was a bit brief.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
I've denied it because it never happened. What possible motive could I have for lying about it?

Ego, groupthink. I don't know how your brain is structured, ask yourself that question.

Last edited by locke : 03-19-2009 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:06 PM   #57
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
I have a pretty long memory, KaVir.
An individual's memory is hardly verifiable evidence, and you're going to find it particularly difficult persuading me that you've got a good memory while making up things like "I *STILL* remember you saying something positive about Worldgen.c".

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
Instead of correcting the date, you or they merely obscured it with a non-factual date from your circumstantial evidence, merely to retain the date 1994 instead of 1993, reinforcing the argument that Armageddon's OLC, which only had a single room editor at the time, and had not been released until many years later if at all, is somehow more substantial and thus warrants a longer section of the article and some sort of emphasis above and beyond The Isles OLC.
So that's what this is all this about? You're upset that Armageddon got a larger mention than NiMUD? And no, it wasn't me who changed it - but like it or not, the fact still remains that there is no evidence of you releasing your OLC earlier than Armageddon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
By the way, I of course worked on Aldara3 with Morg, mainly vicariously by sharing code directly with him, so the Morgenes era of Armageddon means an era where I was contributing in some form. I'm not claiming that Morg didn't come up with many features on his own, but I can assert that I shared information with Morg. If he chooses to deny this, well, that's his problem.
Yeah, I'm starting to see a pattern here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
Ego, groupthink. I don't know how your brain is structured, ask yourself that question.
I have no problem giving credit where it is due, but I don't appreciate your attempts to claim credit for something you had nothing to do with - and I know I'm not the only one.

You want to know where I drew inspiration for my world generation? MUD-DEV, primarily from Nathan Yospe's descriptions of his Physmud++ engine.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:41 PM   #58
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Thumbs down Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
I have no problem giving credit where it is due, but I don't appreciate your attempts to claim credit for something you had nothing to do with - and I know I'm not the only one.
See, KaVir, here's the problem. You're justifying harassing me with claiming that you're standing up for the truth, but reality is that you're just a bully. Anyone who choses to continually bring things OT and not be positive or friendly, in my book, doesn't deserve my time. I've given you plenty of chances to be my friend and you've picked the opposite each and every time.

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
You want to know where I drew inspiration for my world generation? MUD-DEV, primarily from Nathan Yospe's descriptions of his Physmud++ engine.
I definitely remember you introduced yourself to me and told me that. I don't really see the benefit of lying about that, but you apparently do. As I said earlier, I've given you a lot of chances. Try being more cordial in the future.

Well, I don't have any more time to play, kids, gotta get back to more important matters. Take care and good luck.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:08 PM   #59
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

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Originally Posted by locke View Post
See, KaVir, here's the problem. You're justifying harassing me with claiming that you're standing up for the truth, but reality is that you're just a bully.
I'm a bully because I object to you falsely claiming credit for my work?

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Originally Posted by locke View Post
I definitely remember you introduced yourself to me and told me that. I don't really see the benefit of lying about that, but you apparently do.
No, I didn't. Why do you persist in your claims? Do you really think you're going to convince me of something that I know isn't true?

Talk about Déjà vu... Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-01-24 Online Creation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:20 PM   #60
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Re: Revolutionary New OLC and Scripting

Take care and good luck
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