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Old 06-24-2009, 02:59 AM   #1
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NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

A new copy of NiMUD is now available at http://nimud.org/ that has been released under the Artistic License 2.0/GPL. Content is distributed under CCA 2.0 BY-SA


[Moderator Note: Users are strongly recommended to read this whole thread and draw your own conclusions before using this software]

Last edited by Lasher : 06-29-2009 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:28 AM   #2
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

I can't say I'm surprised you'd choose to take such a clearly illegal step. Any fleeting hope you might have had for redemption in this community just vanished with such a brazen theft of other peoples' work.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:47 PM   #3
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I can't say I'm surprised you'd choose to take such a clearly illegal step. Any fleeting hope you might have had for redemption in this community just vanished with such a brazen theft of other peoples' work.
Thanks, Judge. Oh wait, you're not a representative of the law. I guess it doesn't matter what you or anyone else who posts who is not a judge thinks. Goodbye, troll.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:42 PM   #4
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
Thanks, Judge. Oh wait, you're not a representative of the law. I guess it doesn't matter what you or anyone else who posts who is not a judge thinks. Goodbye, troll.
It's the duty of any responsible citizen not to ignore a crime when they see it. You, sir, are an idiot and a thief.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:34 PM   #5
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

These irrational, unfounded claims will not be responded to. Goodbye, troll.

If I haven't made it clear:
YouTube - Elmo dies shut the **** up

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Old 06-24-2009, 09:00 PM   #6
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

I have an honest question. In the license you stated it has this clause
Quote:
5. You may charge a reasonable copying fee for any distribution of this
Package. You may charge any fee you choose for support of this
Package ...
But in the diku license it explicitly states

Quote:
You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in
any possible way. You may under no circumstances charge money for
distributing any part of dikumud - this includes the usual $5 charge
for "sending the disk" or "just for the disk" etc.
Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?
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Old 06-24-2009, 10:41 PM   #7
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davion View Post
I have an honest question. In the license you stated it has this clause
But in the diku license it explicitly states... (something about no charge for duplication)
Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?
Sure. The Diku license deals with DikuMUD. NiMUD is not DikuMUD. I've chosen this license because it is similar in that:

Quote:
"Freely Available" means that no fee is charged for the item itself, though there may be fees involved in handling the item. It also means that recipients of the item may redistribute it under the same conditions they received it.

1. You may make and give away verbatim copies of the source form of the Standard Version of this Package without restriction, provided that you duplicate all of the original copyright notices and associated disclaimers.
So, it will protect the credits and is basically free. It also stipulates that artists who use the software will be able to sell their areas. This was the justification for the sale of ROP's Emlen -- that they were charging for the 'game' as an artistic expression which included many, many area files. This makes sense since areas are not part of the source code and it really is the work of other people. Regarding sale of areas: it doesn't mean that they have to, or that anyone has the right to charge for someone else's area. Since the stock NiMUD areas are released under CCA-3 BY-SA, you can't license them in a derivative under a different license than CCA-3 BY-SA.

Also, the issue with duplication -- well, we live in a time when duplication is not really an issue. We all have the net now (who speak English). At the time of the writing of the Diku license, there was no gaurantee that people didn't use floppy disks. Also, Diku is pointing out "unreasonable fees" like $5 which was a hefty profit back in 1989 -- I've needed to copy things for clients and I've charged them like $2 sometimes to pay a reasonable fee for the duplication effort. I don't have a problem with you doing that if you are selling a copy of NiMUD on disc, since that is a reasonable fee and does not provide any substantial profit for NiMUD itself. That doesn't mean you can sell copies at $5 because that sort of fee scale would be unreasonable. I highly doubt anyone will take advantage of this clause, anyway.

Side note: What's it like being dead?

Last edited by locke : 06-25-2009 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:25 AM   #8
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davion View Post
Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?
They're not resolved. He is a liar and a thief who is violating the Diku license because he hasn't the intelligence to understand or the morals to care.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:37 AM   #9
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

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Old 06-25-2009, 01:42 AM   #10
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
They're not resolved. He is a liar and a thief who is violating the Diku license because he hasn't the intelligence to understand or the morals to care.
I just wanted to make sure that he is actually claiming that NiMUD is no longer a derivative of DikuMUD and no longer is required to abide by any license other than he sees fit.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:56 AM   #11
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quoted from his Google project page:
Quote:
A transformitive work of Merc/Diku MUD called NiMUD released under the Artistic License/GPL.

NiM5 is an advanced multi-user gaming server.

Welcome to NiM5, this server was written by Herb Gilliland; the project began in 1992 and continues to this day. NiM5 was the first to release an open-source multi-user gaming software compatible with Merc/Diku mud that included such advanced features as OLC.

NiM5 contains 12800 hours of work and you are benefiting, please keep our credits in your respective documentation.
That transformative work language is a crock of **** as there's not a single thing I've been able to find that indicates it's even a valid concept in copyright law, US or otherwise. Google search comes up with nothing but proposals from some wackjobs who want to allow fan-fic writers to steal income from the franchises they derive their works from and deprive the original authors of their rights. there's not a single viable link into a law reference or court prescedent anywhere I can find that would qualify what he's done as "fair use" under any interpretation.

However, it appears as though nobody gives a **** and I'm merely wasting my time even raising objection to this. The signal is being sent loud and clear - apparently Vryce style code theft is endorsed widely because that's precisely what we have here.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:07 AM   #12
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The signal is being sent loud and clear - apparently Vryce style code theft is endorsed widely because that's precisely what we have here.
I imagine your Texas accent "Da signawl is bein' sent lawd and cler" -- this is not at all like the case of Medievia and Vryce. Medievia was "60% original", NiMUD is probably around 90% original. Also, you forget that Diku did borrow its ideas from TSR and Infocom, and the Bartle MUD. There was a rumor that it was built from talker, but that was just a rumor. No one lives in true isolation. Also, NiMUD is not being charged for. So, it's not at all the same or similar.

Also, I have never seen a single court document requiring Vryce to do anything. Does anyone know where that is? All I've seen is anecdotal evidence that there even was a problem. Granted, I know it curled some toes, but, years later, does that perspective really hold true today? At the time, though, I had heard there was a court case. Was that a rumor or is there really an official judgement about that?

Regardless, if it happened or not (and I tend to believe it did) it's not exactly relevant. That case occurred a long time ago and would have happened on a lower level, so there is little doubt it is not in the current "zeitgeist" of caselaw. Anyway, it certainly wasn't something that I felt I was repeating.

Last edited by locke : 06-25-2009 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:44 AM   #13
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Sorry. Your fancy doublespeak got garbled up and came out as "blah blah blah I stole it and you can all go to hell" blah blah blah.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:59 AM   #14
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
However, it appears as though nobody gives a **** and I'm merely wasting my time even raising objection to this. The signal is being sent loud and clear - apparently Vryce style code theft is endorsed widely because that's precisely what we have here.
The situation is somewhat different, in that Vryce claimed his mud wasn't a derivative because it no longer contained any Diku code - therefore the arguments in that case primarily revolved around similarites, and my comparison was intended to draw attention to the large quantities of identical code.

However there's not really anything to prove in Locke's case, because even he admits that his mud is based on Diku, and contains large amounts of Diku code. We've already explained to him that what he's doing is illegal, but he doesn't care, and it's not really as if his reputation could get much worse anyway.

I suppose someone could fire off an email to the FSF and tell them that he's violating the GPL...but other than that, our options are pretty much limited to throwing rotten fruit.
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Old 06-25-2009, 05:38 AM   #15
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Already tried contacting the FSF. They said they won't act on it unless the Diku team tells them to, or unless they hold the copyright. I'm not sure the person who responded even understood the problem, but in the end, it seems they can't or won't pursue it without say-so from the Diku team.

So unless they're willing to step up for once and defend what's theirs, Locke is going to get away with this.
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Old 06-25-2009, 08:57 AM   #16
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

It's well known that in order for a codebase to be succesful it needs to have a large player base, and NiMUD has no player base to speak of.

So my question is, if Locke violates Diku in the woods, and there's nobody around to hear, will it make a sound?
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Old 06-25-2009, 10:28 AM   #17
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

It's not just about Locke, it also effects anyone else who downloads his codebase - they may not even know it's an illegal distribution.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:33 PM   #18
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
It's not just about Locke, it also effects anyone else who downloads his codebase - they may not even know it's an illegal distribution.
Well, I'm talking to Hans in email and he said:

"Why exactly are they claiming you stole anything (I assume they mean that you are in violation of the license, instead of theft, which is not exactly equivalent legally)?"

As for "player bases make mud codebases" -- that's just not true. First of all, there is no term "codebase" -- instead, there is a term "software package" -- secondly, the amount of work in the source code has to do with how the code is made, not the number of players active at any given time. If that were true, Merc 2.0c would not be considered important because very few if any MUDs use that code.
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Old 06-25-2009, 02:21 PM   #19
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
It's not just about Locke, it also effects anyone else who downloads his codebase - they may not even know it's an illegal distribution.
Like I said, I don't think that's going to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by locke View Post
As for "player bases make mud codebases" -- that's just not true.
History shows different, pretty much every successful codebase started out as a popular mud.

One of the reasons for this is that starting with a codebase you've never played has a much steeper learning curve than working on a codebase you've actively played for years.

Given NiMUD is substantially different from any popular mud in existence the chances of someone starting work on a NiMUD derivative is close to zero. It's more likely that someone will grab NiMUD code and plug it into something else, as was the case with OLC.
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Old 06-25-2009, 02:35 PM   #20
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Re: NiMUD 5 Re-released Under AL/GPL

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
Like I said, I don't think that's going to happen.


History shows different, pretty much every successful codebase started out as a popular mud.
The Isles was popular before it released its OLC features. It had 20 players online at any given time, and had only been around for a few months. CthulhuMUD had about 5 players at any given time and was its direct predecessor. I also ran/developed this. It had OLC, and it also had something called "ritualistic magic" -- (It is not the CthulhuMUD that is out there today.)

The Isles reached a second height of popularity a few years later when it was an RP intensive MUD during the period that I collaborated with Morgenes of Aldara ]I[. Aside from this, its OLC features are immensely popular and have had tens of thousands of users.

Using your logic, Bartle's MUD II would be an example of a "failed" and irrelevant MUD. I think you're just wrapping insults up with glossy paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
Given NiMUD is substantially different from any popular mud in existence the chances of someone starting work on a NiMUD derivative is close to zero. It's more likely that someone will grab NiMUD code and plug it into something else, as was the case with OLC.
Well, it's not really possible to plug an entire mud into to something else. Parts of it, maybe (and have been such as HIT_FUN or other subsystems) -- it doesn't use the same types and requires painstaking redeployment procedures. Significant (reverse?) engineering would have to occur to get it to work with a MERC. See "installing NiMScripts in Merc" doc that is floating around out there and you will see the differences.

Furthermore, there have been 4 derivatives and one hugely popular MUD that have came out of this project. The four derivatives are: eWar (Emlen based), FateMUD (Emlen based, not distributed), Midpoint Void (NiMUD derivation point) and EmlenMUD I (Midpoint Void based). Additionally, there was the immensely popular "ROP" or "Rites of Passage" which had supposedly 90+ people online at any given time according to the administrators and former players.

Any source code derivative of NiMUD source code must adhere to the AL 2.0 license and be released under AL 2.0. It's protected. Prior versions such as the ones on ftpgame.org are under the Diku/Merc/NiMUD license tree. I can't really speak to those versions except to say that they are depreciated.

Last edited by locke : 06-25-2009 at 03:06 PM.
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