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Old 09-17-2009, 07:36 PM   #1
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RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Greetings players and administrators.

I've created this thread as another thread was being railroaded by the topic of RPI (Role Play Intensive) and RPE (Role Play Enforced/Extreme/Excellence) MUDs.

The topic revolves around the origin of RPI and RPE and why a small subset of MUD's should annex the title RPI. The original argument dates back to a 239 reply thread here:



Every month or so someone brings up another thread about RPI's and relating them to this small group. Some gamers and creators believe that this is a misuse of the term Roleplay Intensive and take offense to this small group claiming that name for their subset of MUD's.
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:27 PM   #2
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

The following is an excerpt written by Proph1515 that I am bringing here for critique.
Can you show evidence of this origin?
Again, there is no evidence of this origin. Most of the evidence comes from posts on TMS and at the now defunct website that has been changed since its inception. Even the website, when operational, couldn't agree to a set standard of defined terms. Hence the heated debate in the above link and following quote.
Another reason why the term is ambiguous and another should be selected. Perhaps RPG-19.
Disagreed. No evidence of this.
With so many categories why have a group. Essentially you have roleplaying games that claim they are intensive. But that is arbitrary. I could play any of them and claim they are boring, rudimentary, slow, lack anything but pk and tons of time wasted using scripts to do crafting, lack global roleplay, and destroy long term roleplay storyline through permadeath. But even so it would only be one opinion not fact. As you may or may not know, this is the reason there is so much debate over who is a good actor. It is arbitrary. Giving this group a more copyrightable name would do wonders for clarity.

No, that term is usable by ANY MUD that the players feel is Role-Play Intensive or RPI.
Every term in the above paragraph is clear and defined except RPI. Roly-Play Intensive is not and could be used by anyone as there is no standard for Intensity.
Difference. NFL is copyrighted and trademarked. It is a term for a club. A league if you will. A highschool team or college team is high school or collegiate. This is a poor example.
Never heard of this term, ever. Even so. Role-Play Oriented denotes a game that is merely oriented in roleplay but doesn't require it. Similar to RP encouraged. It was your way of saying, hey guys, nice try but you know...you're not quite there yet. Which is false egotism since there is nothing inherently great about having only skills in a game. In fact, lacking Guilds would be notoriously lacking in roleplay as you lose groups. Like making a game with all rogues. You are limited to one class instead of several. We'll get into the downfall of these types of MUD functions and how they hurt rather than help RP later though.
The problem you fail to see is that most if not all roleplay enforced MUDs and MUSHes and PK MUDs especially are severely intense.

So here we have a grand total of 5 games. 2 of which have tiny playerbases, another 2 are combat and pk oriented and finally the one that has a playerbase and isn't combat oriented still is based on borging skills and crafts and limited to Tolkien's book.

Perhaps you should keep RPI just make sure the identification is Role Play Isildur.
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:09 AM   #3
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Spelling is incorrect. While "ph" and "f" are phonetically similar, one is not my screen name while the other is.

As has already been pointed out, there is a lack of documentation in the MUD community for just about anything aside from personal recollection. I will refer you to review a discussion over on though to get further information on the term. It is one of the few cases where the discussion of the term was ever documented though by no means is it the first or a definitive discussion.

First of all, your url is wrong. Secondly, the evidence also extends before that to discussions here and on mudlab.org. Third, the old rpimud.com never represented any systematic attempt to define RPI, just one man's loose interpretation.

The term is not ambiguous. The exact characteristics of the term were a bit ambiguous since they were never clearly defined until a couple years ago by examining the games to which the term first applied for similar characteristics which could constitute why some games were called RPI while others were not. It was simply a matter of figuring out what those games had in common that was not standard in other games of the time. By doing so, a clear definition of the term could be derived which matched its original usage.

Because despite different code origins and different codebase development, they all possess the same characteristics.

This is the root of your problem. You still apparently have a sub-par understanding of the English language. "Role-play intensive MUD" and "intense role-play MUD" do not mean the same thing. The order of the words signify to what the word "intensive" refers to. In the former term, the word is an adjective of "MUD" while in the latter it is an adjective of "role-play".

Then they, like you, would be wrong and demonstrating their ignorance. Like it or not, the term was coined for those particular types of MUDs.

Again, your ignorance of English seems to be the root of your problem.

NFL is trademarked, not copyrighted. Even if they weren't, it still functions as an example because I was pointing out that while all NFL teams are football teams, not all football teams are NFL teams. The same is true of RPIs and role-play enforced MUDs.

And you would be wrong as I coined the term and can tell you what it means and my intent. RPI does not represent any ultimate goal. It represents a particular type of game. The term RPO was coined to signify games which stand out from the 300+ role-play enforced MUDs but which are not RPI. It is an ambiguous term because these games really lack any identifying standard beyond being role-play enforced. Some have levels, some do not. Some have OOC channels, some do not. Some have permanent death, some do not. They do all however possess differences from MUDs merely with stock H&S code and a role-play required policy though these differences are by no means the same from game to game. That is why I came up with a term for them.

Apparently you don't know what a guild is. Beside that minor point, what would this have to do with the definition of anything?

And yet again the problem is that you don't understand English very well. "Intense" is subjective. Your use of the word is also irrelevant to the discussion because the term is "role-play intensive" and not "intense role-play".

How does the number of open games make any difference? To date, there have been about three dozen games which have been RPI. At present, there are 6 open (Dark Horizon's website states that they're open) and at least another 5 in development. But even if there was only one around, that wouldn't change anything as that has not always been the case.

What does playerbase size have to do with anything? No one has ever claimed RPIs were anything but a niche type of MUD. Although the two largest, Armageddon and SoI, have fairly good-sized playerbases that doesn't change anything.

Furthermore, combat and PK is not the emphasis of any of the games even if they do emphasize it as an element of their role-play. It relates to the setting they have chosen. What does Tolkien have to do with anything? These things don't relate to discussing what constitutes RPI.

Seriously, as an administrator of an ENGLISH TEXT-BASED game, you should have some understanding of the language. If English isn't your first language then my apologies for being rude. However, if it is your first language then you need to learn how the language works because that seems to be the root of your inability to comprehend things.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:46 AM   #4
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Obviously people like the term RPI, but not so much the niche definition of it. Then again, what is the point of labeling your game RPI (just because it sounds cool) when everyone else does? I personally don't see how a mud without perma-death could call its RP environment 'intensive'.

I'd suggest coming up with a term of yourself, documenting the requirements on a webpage, and maintaining a list of muds that meet the definition.
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Old 09-18-2009, 09:45 AM   #5
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

That is probably the root source of the abuse of the term though I try to avoid saying it since there's always the possibility of innocent mistakes by games that just didn't know the origins of the term.

Exactly the reason coming up with yet another name for RPIs isn't worth the effort. First of all, those who have been playing RPIs for a decade or longer already use the term to identify the types of games they're looking for. Secondly, if a new term is created for what constitutes RPIs and non-RPIs decide they like that term, what's to stop them using it too just so they can capitalize on its usei and/or perceived reputation? All that does is continue to confuse the community with a repeating cycle of new acronyms for game types which already have definable terms.

Over at the . Admittedly RPO is rather vague. One game may have features A and B while another may have A and C while yet another has B and C. Short of dozens of terms applying to single games, we just use RPO as a catch-all for any game that isn't RPI but doesn't just feature a role-play enforced policy alone.

These terms are not any measure of quality, just categories for identifying shared features. One can go through and probably divide these categories into multiple sub-categories. RPIs could probably be sub-categorized as Armageddon-type, Harshlands/SoI-type and Southlands-type after the three modified code lineages they represent. I imagine RPEs could probably be divided much the same based on the stock MUD designations from which they are created. However, in the case of RPOs it'll probably result in dozens of sub-categories consisting of one, maybe two at best, games each. That's the reason for the catch-all term RPO.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:25 AM   #6
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Other muds are just jealous that RPI's get all the glory. Most muds, even if they use the word "roleplaying" in it means nothing to me. There is a whole genre that uses that word (RPG anyone) that has nothing to do with roleplaying but is simply hack and slash video games. The same applies online. People use the word frivolously.

role-play
  /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rohl-pley] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators.
2. to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions.
–verb (used without object)
3. to engage in role-playing.


I think the first one hits home with me. In many games that claim roleplay they aren't defining it correctly. The players simply play the game. On world of warcraft there isn't any roleplaying because you're just being yourself. You don't have to worry about anything.. it's almost like chat-room roleplay. You can do whatever you want that you the player desire.

You're playing yourself, not assuming a role. This is also true at RPI's though. There are plenty of players at RPI's that simply play the same thing over and over, and really they're just playing the game as themselves the player. Satisfying their own out-of-character desires over that of a true character.
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:36 PM   #7
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

If no one minds, I think I'll let Maddox speak for me on this topic, since I ALWAYS think of this article when I see the WHAT IS AN RPI/RPANUS threads pop up:



I figure that the crowd of, ah, posers, for lack of a better term, just want the association of 'elite' RP or whatever you want to call it, so they've snatched at the moniker to feel better. But anything more than a brief look will show you the shoddy paintjob, cheap rims, and less-than-intensive RP.
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:42 PM   #8
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

You claim to be some expert roleplayer, but you take a "brief look" at a MUD and make a determination? Please. A brief look at your own MUD wouldn't even get your character approved. Yeah, great intense RP. Oh by they way, better check with Prof1515, it's not intense RP it is role-play intensive. Get it right!
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:50 PM   #9
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Okay Professor (I use this term because of your anal attitude about your handle and your proclivity to focus on English language understanding rather than key points of discussion),

Let's try to break this down into simple terms to see if my limited understanding of English can comprehend you properly:

1. You want the sole use of the term RPI for games you feel follow your 19 subsets of Role-Play INTENSIVE standards.
Unlikely this will ever happen despite your monthly posts about it RPI and who is RPI.

2. You want the sole use of this term even though you admit that the specific website of this term was only one man's interpretation?
Odd that.

3. Any game can be role-play intensive but only your subset is allowed to be called RPI because you claim this term was coined by your group several years ago.
Similar to saying that any game can be called a MUD, but only games played with the GMUD client are true MUDs. Laughable at best.

4. You make the claim that I do not understand the use of the English language and in the same paragraph you drop a preposition at the end of a sentence.
Listen pal, if you want to critique another on language understanding, you might want to take a writing class first. Here's the sample sentence and the correction for your edification: "The order of the words signify to what the word "intensive" refers to." should be "The order of the words signify to what intensive refers." You're welcome.

5. You still claim and maintain that the term RPI was coined for these games.
I suppose you can claim that they are the only MUDs in existence and it still doesn't make it fact, now does it?

6. You claim that RPI does not mean an ultimate goal, it only means a specific type of game.
I don't buy this. If it only meant a specific type of game you wouldn't care what the acronym was, yet you bite down on this like a dog on a steak. You want the term associated with intensive as if no other game is intensive. At least be honest about it Professor. I was honest when I said that I do not agree with your concept of intensive and nothing in your 19 points of RPI defines roleplay intensive any more than opposing points which I will give in a follow on post. I am honest when I say that I and others take offense to your narrow view on role-play and the meaning of good role-play and what defines good role-play.

7. You claim that I do not know what a Guild is?
Can you be any more ignorant? Seriously, you promote games that do not even have guilds and you are now the definition on guilds? Get real.

8. You disagreed with my argument on the number of games making a difference.
This is one point I will give you. It shouldn't make a difference even if there was one game. The problem exists that a singular game or couple of games in the genre of roleplaying intensive games won't be able to have the buying power to annex the term RPI. Take Iron Realms games for example. The would likely have an acronym like IRMUD. Which is a decent acronym for their subset. If they, however, said that from now on if you do not have the 25 features of Iron Realms MUDs you cannot use the term RPMUD, I would have a problem with that as well. Can you understand this concept or are you still fixated on whether or not I understand the English language?

There is a lot more I could detail about your post, but for now this should give you ample information to argue about.
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Old 09-18-2009, 04:05 PM   #10
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

A log from New Worlds
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Old 09-18-2009, 04:06 PM   #11
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

A log from arm.

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Old 09-18-2009, 04:07 PM   #12
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Those two logs prove the difference between an RPI mud and a non-RPI mud.
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Old 09-18-2009, 05:23 PM   #13
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

I find it odd that a roleplay game like Armeggedon still uses the antiquated think command. Think is an emote that is only useful to the character typing it as no one but a psion or mindreader would be able to roleplay off of it.

But that is beside the point. Here is the point:

A log from Armeggedon:

A log from New Worlds:
These two logs show the difference between an Arm MUD and a non Arm MUD.
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Old 09-18-2009, 05:26 PM   #14
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Besides the jealousy thing at the beginning I agree with most of this.
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:23 AM   #15
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Why is your Arm log so strained together. You should have spaced in between the sentences and stuff. Eh. Whatever.

I fail to see your point though with the two logs. The system armageddon uses is far better for storytelling and roleplaying. That much is obvious to anybody reading any of the two logs.

By comparison I mean this:

and this:

Anybody can go look at each sites logs. Also that website is the OLD logs for arm from years ago. The new one is somewhere else on the site and is a bit more user friendly.
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:53 AM   #16
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

It was cut and pasted as is as was the NW Log. Likely I could have hand detailed both and spaced them out, but that wasn't the point.

The link you gave is an ancient link from early BETA of NW. That link isn't even active for most people as it was linked to a seperate player's log system and should be replaced with something more updated.

What is more important here Delerak is that both logs do not represent true gameplay in either game. In order to know a game you must play it and play it for some time as shown in the thread:

Without spending a good amount of time in a MUD to get to know the system, players, and staff, it is hard to make a true analysis of the quality of the MUD.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:05 AM   #17
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

They're not my standards, they're shared traits of the games to which the term was first applied. Amongst all of the various combinations of features and policies a small group was branded RPI. In trying to figure out what traits they had in common in order to identify the meaning of the term, a comparison of these games revealed 19 similiarities. It's not my list, my standards or anything of the kind. It is a list of the similiarities shared by the different games first called RPI.

Whether it happens or not is a matter of the ignorance of some and the idiocy of others. The ignorant can be tolerated and educated. The idiots who simply refuse because they're jealous, insecure or just plain stupid will always be a problem. But that doesn't mean the community has to accept them.

That site was started in late 2004. The term RPI predates it by half a decade. When Wade chose that name for his site he wasn't fully aware of the abuse the term had undergone. I'm not even sure he knew just how diverse the role-play MUD community had become and how varied the use of the term "role-play" was. By the definition of some people, Pac-Man or Pong is a role-playing game.

The term was coined with a specific meaning. It's akin to someone calling base-Diku a first-person-shooter or FPS. It's not because the term was invented for a specific type of game which base-Diku is not no matter how much someone wants to claim it is.

Role-Playing Intensive is an adjective used before the word game or MUD. Just as a rose-red flower is different from a red, rose flower. The latter refers to a rose but the former does not. It might be a carnation. Likewise, Role-Play Intensive has nothing to do with "intense role-play" (a subjective term in itself since one man's intense experience may be another man's mundane). There's a distinct difference between sloppy writing on-the-fly and a repeated demonstration of an inability to discern how the English language functions. I should proofread more. You should take remedial English.

The first games to which the term was applied were Armageddon and Harshlands. Over time more and more games began to use the term.

It is a term that the RPI community created and use to identify similar games. When every game type from RPE to H&S use the term, it makes it impossible to use. Coming up with a new term doesn't solve the problem since it's not like we have some congress every year where every RPI player attends to learn terminology. Some would still search for the term RPI because they know that the games they prefer to play were called RPI. Additionally, if a new term is invented, what's to keep every other type of game from co-opting that as well?

The screen name is prof1515. Why do you have such a difficult time with that? Your repeated issues with it suggests a disdain for education and feelings of anti-intellectualism. Get over it. My screen name is prof1515, not proph1515 or professor.

My view on role-play has nothing to do with the term. As for "what defines good role-play", quality is a subjective distinction and has nothing to do with whether a game is RPI or RPE.

A guild is an association of people with similar interests or experience, specifically a Medieval association of craftsmen or merchants. In the context of MUDs, guilds are often used to denote associations of characters. I have yet to find any RPI which does not have groups akin to the latter definition and many have groups similar to the historic definition.

So either you don't know what a guild is or you don't know anything about RPIs. Most likely the answer is yes to both.

There was no use of the term "role-playing intensive games" prior to its use to distinguish RPIs from other role-play MUDs. Back in the 90s the term "role-playing intensive" wasn't used. Most MUDs didn't make a big thing out of role-play on their games like they do today. It was just a given that there was role-play alongside H&S and/or PvP. The RPIs did not feature H&S, removed H&S systems like leveling and experience points, and concentrated only on role-play. Their take on role-play features and policies was different than other MUDs and their players tended to prefer that style. To distinguish similar games from dissimilar ones, they used the term Role-Play(ing) Intensive or RPI. With the plethora of other terms to denote games where role-playing is emphasized (be it role-play enforced, role-play mandatory, role-play focused, etc.) that term allowed players of the RPIs to identify the games that they wanted to play.

Role-playing MUD and RPMUD are terms which have been in PRIOR use. Role-Play Intensive and RPI were not in general use over a decade ago when the term was created. Now, if someone complained that Iron Realms used IRMUD, that would be similar to the problem faced with the term RPI. It's a term that wasn't in general use and therefore is open for adoption to identify a particular type of game.

Last edited by prof1515 : 09-19-2009 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:11 AM   #18
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Think reveals a character's motivations rather than their actions. A politician may smile and say, "How are you?" while thinking, "I hate this asshole." The think command allows the player to demonstrate that difference and aspect of the character's personality.

With the RPIs, the goal is to play the character as realistically as possible, in essense becoming the character in every regard within the game, not to play it just so others can see it and react.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:45 AM   #19
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

I won't even respond to the tripe you just spewed in that horrific last post that you made into one large quote. Not only do you fail to impress with your duplicated unsubstatiated arguments, you can't even format them properly. You also cannot seem to discuss a point without bringing in personal attacks. It's a wonder anyone reads anything you write on your supposed RPI website.

If you truly wanted to gain steps in your goal of RPI control, you'd step down as a spokesperson. You are like dog trying to sell catfood.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:56 AM   #20
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

RPI, RPG, RPWhatever. Revealing hidden motivations as a think command is completely unrealistic. Hidden thoughts should be shown by action, spoken word, and poses, not by thoughts shouted outloud. Using this method is similar to walking around with a LEVEL 50 stamped on your character's forehead. Think should never be used in a roleplay environment unless the game has methods of thoughts being heard by ability or powers.

In your example you would have the politician holding a sign above his head with his thoughts on it.
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