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Old 09-17-2009, 04:12 PM   #21
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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No. Wrong. Your historical reference is completely inaccurate. Just because a group attempted to seize the term Roleplay Intensive (RPI), does not make it a strict definition of RPI.
I'm afraid you're wrong. The historical origin of the term refers to the small group of games (Armageddon, Harshlands and then Forever's End) which shared, despite the first two having separate code development and origins, numerous similiarities which at the time were not present in any other MUDs.

The group that attempted to "seize" the term RPI was not a group by any definable measure since they're wide-ranging games: some role-play enforced, some not; some hybrid H&S, some strict role-play only; some MUSH; some are even pure PK MUDs! The term simply was abused by games which either did not understand what the term meant or chose to ignore that in order to capitalize on the association.

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For those who don't with to muddle through whopping 239 posts on this thread, the basic ending argument was that RPI is a poor term for a group of MUDs that really should have something akin to PK, Permadeath, Guildless, Classless, etc.
That was not the conclusion to the discussion. The fact is that ANY term, including the term "MUD" is inaccurate in some regard or another. The term RPI was invented by and for a small group of that shared 19 characteristics. While these characteristics were never clearly defined (the people who created the term applied them to games that were similar; simply playing these games revealed the similarities), the meaning was clear. It was only later that I and some others attempted to define clearly what these characteristics were by examining the games to which the term originally applied and discerning those shared characteristics that those first three games possessed which were not common as a whole to any other games. Hence the list of 19 characterstics, some code and some policy.

Quote:
This group still refuses to drop the term and they should....
Why? There's no reason. The term Role-Play Intensive or RPI was coined by these games to apply to their games because their games were role-play intensive. Other games which never met the characterisitcs of the RPI MUDs may have begun using the term but they're in error, not those which meet the original specifications.

Quote:
...by taking up one of the suggested terms: ARP (armeggedon style Roleplay) HRP (Harshlands Roleplay).
Armageddon-type RPI and Harshlands-type RPI are two acceptable sub-categories of Role-Play Intensive (RPI) MUDs since both have independently-derived code yet conform to the same 19 characteristics. A third existing sub-category would be Southlands-type RPI as that's the third code lineage adhering to those characteristics. If one wanted to break down the sub-categories a bit more, the Harshlands-type RPI could be defined by the code: the original Harshlands, the FEM variant of the Harshlands code, the SoI RPI Engine, the Argila variant of the SoI RPI Engine and the RPI++ variant of the SoI RPI Engine. At present there are anywhere from one to three other RPI code projects in development (including one for my own game) which will if completed represent the fourth, fifth and sixth types of RPI MUDs.

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Using one of these terms (since those two games were the founding games of this group) would be much more accurate and definitive.
There already is a term for these types of games: Role-Play Intensive (capitalized or abbreviated RPI).

To summarize the aforementioned discussion, there are lots of terms out there for text-based games featuring role-play: role-play, role-play enforced, role-play required, role-play mandatory, role-play encouraged, role-play focused (as used by the original poster in his title), role-play optional and role-play accepted. Role-Play Intensive MUDs are technically a type of role-play enforced/required/mandatory. But just because all RPI MUDs are role-play enforced does not mean all role-play enforced are RPI.

A simple comparison is the National Football League (NFL). All NFL teams are football teams but not all football teams are NFL teams. The Pittsburgh Steelers are a NFL team. If the Notre Dame Fighting Irish decided to call themselves a NFL team it doesn't make them one even if they play football and have a greater national following than the Steelers. The term applies to a particular set of teams. Likewise, the terms Role-Play Intensive and RPI apply to a particular type of role-play (enforced) MUD.

In 2006 I coined the term Role-Play Oriented (RPO) to describe those role-play enforced MUDs which bear many similarities to RPI MUDs without possessing all 19 characteristics (technically I coined the term in late 2005 but I didn't use it anywhere at that time besides in a private conversation with Wade from rpimud.com). The idea was to come up with a term the would allow games to distinguish themselves as being focused on RP without the confusion of misusing the term RPI. In retrospect, I didn't think about the abbreviation being the same as role-play optional and Role-Play Focused (RPF) might have been a better choice. No doubt though someone would come up with a term with the same abbreviation as that too though!

So, essentially there are two uses of the term role-play intensive MUD. The proper adjective refers to the original, historical use which is clearly defined by analysis of the term's origin. Then there's the later generic use of the term which has no clear definition beyond simply that of whoever uses it. This use may include Role-Play Oriented MUDs and MUSHes, role-play enforced MUDs and MUSHes, role-play encouraged MUDs and MUSHes, MUSs, H&S MUDs, PvP MUDs, and even pure PK MUDs though in the case of the last few the use would probably denote either ignorance or questionable motives (and hence why I personally discourage the use of the term for anything but those games to which the term was originally coined).

The original poster's title use of "RP-focused" and the description of the games and their use of "RPI" suggests they're not necessarily looking for a RPI but rather any RPO. Hence, I'll run down off the top of my head a list of both which might contain a game to their liking.

Role-Playing Intensive (RPI) MUDs:

Armageddon (tends to be a lot of combat emphasis though)
Black Sands (again, tends to be a lot of combat emphasis)
Harshlands (small playerbase)
Shadows of Isildur (depending where you play it has the best RP of the RPIs; I'd recommend Minas Tirith)
Southlands (again, very small playerbase)

Role-Playing Oriented (RPO) MUDs

Accursed Lands (though they recently had a major staff schism which caused discord)
Shadow Siege (continues to grow from what I understand)
The Inquisition (small playerbase)

I'm sure some more will come to mind later. I'll drop you a PM if I think of them.

Good luck in your search!

Jason aka Falco

P.S. -- I really do like the use of the term "Role-Playing Focused"!

Last edited by prof1515 : 09-17-2009 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Thumbs up for RPF!
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:45 PM   #22
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Can an administrator please create a thread for these guys to bicker on, or would one of them do so?

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As for OtherSpace, I might give it a try as well, although I generally tend to gravitate towards MUDs which involve mainly humanoids. Elves and the like are fine I suppose, but I really try to stay away from animals, reptiles, tentacles, aliens....
You'll find that we have a majority of humanoids, and our dominant races are both humanoid, albeit satyrish or with kaleidoscope eyes and mind powers. In fact, we offer starting characters the ability to apply from a variety of human eras that are sucked away via a rift so you aren't forced to enter with an understanding of an alien character or OtherSpace's history. I believe this month, you can come from WTC on 9/11 pre-planes, Woodstock (man, that was one bad mushroom...), or 16th or 17th century sea-borne plunderers. I think the last would be best for someone interested in a medieval setting.
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:40 PM   #23
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Misao and Wik,

I stopped the discussion at the first post Misao made (today at 10:41am). I'm sorry the others did not respect your request and therefor I am created a thread with my original posts where they can hopefully delete their posts and move them to this thread:

http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/ta...-roleplay.html

I hope this helps and stops the madness.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:10 PM   #24
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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Originally Posted by misao View Post

I have found MUSHes in which RP, or writing a story rather, really IS everything. (admittedly, the majority of such MUSHes are adult-based MUSHes *blush*) To the extent where there are virtually no code limitations; you pose out everything and if your fireball hits someone, there will be no coded changes in his character as well.

Those MUSHes have a culture in which detailed poses are the norm... and while this is good, it can be brought to an extreme sometimes. Elitist behaviour is often cultivated in which players say, "I refuse to RP with anyone who poses in less than 8 lines!"

Another drawback is that since most RP in such MUSHes occurs in private (because it's really hard to coordinate group RP when everyone poses 8 lines and takes 10 minutes to do so!), and that, combined with the lack of code, causes there to be no... well... society-based RP. As in, people RP in isolated 'scenes', which has no effect on the society in general, because there was no society to speak of in the first place, since everyone huddles in rooms with one other person. Okay, fine, so it's an adult MUSH.
Honestly, this level of consent doesn't describe most and maybe not even many MUSH/MUXes (though it likely does describe the adult ones). Coded conflict resolution systems (which, on WoD MU*s, can include social conflict as well as combat) are much more common than pure consent systems. I've also heard about but never seen that sort of "pose-length elitism" on a MUSH or a MUX, and the one game I know that imposed some sort of minimum pose length was thoroughly and mercilessly mocked on the forum where they tried (and failed) to justify that ridiculous policy.

That said, it is fair to say that scenes on many of these games tend to be small because play is slow and tend not to greatly affect the grid as a whole unless they are staff-run scenes (which can either rock or be amazing examples of suck). It's also true that if you like medieval-themed games, your MUSH/MUX choices are rather limited; most that I know tend to be WoD, Star Wars, Star Trek, Pern, or comic book games. However, judging all games of a particular code type to be a certain way because you played sexually oriented games that use that code type makes about as much sense as saying that all MOOs are gleefully depraved because the only MOO you've played is HellMOO.
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Old 09-18-2009, 02:55 AM   #25
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Misao,

If you haven't already, you should give Threshold RPG a try. It is one of the oldest RP required MUDs out there, and has 13 years of rich IC history.

I cannot vouch for the quality of every single player's RP, but there have been storylines and character designs that are as good as the best fiction I've ever read.

Combat is a part of the game, but it is totally optional. Some people make it their focus, but many do not.

While the game has this much history, it doesn't feel old. We are constantly branching out and adding new features to keep the game fresh and exciting - even for people that have been playing for over 10 years (of which there are many).

Our players are so devoted, we even have an annual convention where players get together for a weekend of fun.

Journey Beyond the Threshold!

Check it out.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:31 PM   #26
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Thank you, Newworlds.

I am awaiting the approval of the changes I had to make to my character for SoI. However, I did hear, to my dismay, from a friend that SoI's emote system doesn't even support an emote and a quotation (for speech) in the same line. This boggles and, honestly, disturbs me.

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Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 View Post
Honestly, this level of consent doesn't describe most and maybe not even many MUSH/MUXes (though it likely does describe the adult ones). Coded conflict resolution systems (which, on WoD MU*s, can include social conflict as well as combat) are much more common than pure consent systems. I've also heard about but never seen that sort of "pose-length elitism" on a MUSH or a MUX, and the one game I know that imposed some sort of minimum pose length was thoroughly and mercilessly mocked on the forum where they tried (and failed) to justify that ridiculous policy.

That said, it is fair to say that scenes on many of these games tend to be small because play is slow and tend not to greatly affect the grid as a whole unless they are staff-run scenes (which can either rock or be amazing examples of suck). It's also true that if you like medieval-themed games, your MUSH/MUX choices are rather limited; most that I know tend to be WoD, Star Wars, Star Trek, Pern, or comic book games. However, judging all games of a particular code type to be a certain way because you played sexually oriented games that use that code type makes about as much sense as saying that all MOOs are gleefully depraved because the only MOO you've played is HellMOO.
Yes, this is very true! I apologize for my generalization, and I thank you for pointing this out. However, for the reasons that you have outlined, my experience in MUSHes is rather limited, as I prefer not to play MU*s which are based around a series that I am not interested in. I did attempt to try Outremer MUSH but there was nobody online. Heh.

As for the elitism, it isn't enforced as a minimum pose length by admins. Again, it's the culture. Simply put, if you constantly pose one-liners people will just ignore you and not RP with you, because it's consent-based.

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Misao,

If you haven't already, you should give Threshold RPG a try. It is one of the oldest RP required MUDs out there, and has 13 years of rich IC history.

I cannot vouch for the quality of every single player's RP, but there have been storylines and character designs that are as good as the best fiction I've ever read.

Combat is a part of the game, but it is totally optional. Some people make it their focus, but many do not.

While the game has this much history, it doesn't feel old. We are constantly branching out and adding new features to keep the game fresh and exciting - even for people that have been playing for over 10 years (of which there are many).

Our players are so devoted, we even have an annual convention where players get together for a weekend of fun.

Journey Beyond the Threshold!

Check it out.
Thanks -- I did attempt to try Threshold before, but I must have been given the wrong connecting address then.
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Old 09-19-2009, 01:09 AM   #27
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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Originally Posted by misao View Post
Thank you, Newworlds.

I am awaiting the approval of the changes I had to make to my character for SoI. However, I did hear, to my dismay, from a friend that SoI's emote system doesn't even support an emote and a quotation (for speech) in the same line. This boggles and, honestly, disturbs me.
You can not put quotes in an emote because that circumvents the language system. You can however attach actions before something you say which does the same thing but thus requires listeners to know the language to understand what you're saying.
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Old 09-19-2009, 03:48 AM   #28
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Ergh no, it doesn't do the same thing, IMO. I can imagine how such a restriction would inhibit the flow of writing, especially since I tend to mix actions and words in emotes almost 100% of the time.

TI did manage to insitute languages while allowing actions and words in the same line, not sure how they did it though.
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Old 09-19-2009, 03:52 AM   #29
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

This is an example of what I'm looking for, I guess. With a bigger playerbase.


Quote:
Cei looks to a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair and Nathanial and folds his arms behind his back.
Keiten sniffs once and glares at a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair, expressionless.
Nathanial seems to catch the curious gaze of those present. He raises his hand to signal a brown-haired Lithmorran local with blue eyes, who nods and quickly hurries off. "Murder. We don't have tolerance for it in our kingdom," he states loudly, even as he begins moving a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair into position. "This woman is guilty of murder; ending the life of a man named Bemus."
Vanson arrives from the south twirling a pair of keys on his middle finger.
A large black Irdiran pinscher has arrived.
Vanson slows to a halt.
A brown-haired Lithmorran local with blue eyes can be seen down the street, speaking with a couple of guards. Quickly, those other two head off as well, intent to see to their sudden task.
You have advanced in your knowledge of parry.
Cassilyn, quiet for once, stands aside watching the scene with wide blue eyes and a slightly furrowed brow.
Vanson moves in looking about, wondering what all the commotion is about remaining among the crowd inconspiciosly.
Hands trembling, a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair is hustled to the post. Her jaw hangs partly open as she winces a bleary-eyed scan over the gathered crowd. "Bemus," she mumbles finally, after Nathanial's address. [Player]
A whinny can be heard down the street, followed by iron-shoed hooves against the cobbled street. [Player]

Vanson finally gets a view and raises an eyebrow at you in her state noticing the gore, keeping a calm face. He looks over to a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair watching curiously

Cassilyn stares up at a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair from her position at the side of the crowd, hands raised to her mouth and sympathy evident in her large blue eyes.

Jochen arrives from the south with short, calm steps.
Jochen slows to a halt.
Jochen makes his way into the square, remaining on the outskirts mostly. He squints as he looks about, attempting to recognize people.


Nathanial raises his hand towards an arriving guard - who is mounted upon a rather powerful-looking brown steed. "Get them ready," Nathanial tells the guard, as other horses can be heard coming, too. He clasps a hand firmly upon a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair's back, calling, "Murder, treason... such cruel acts carry with them the punishment of death." An unobscured glance goes out towards you.

Keiten watches a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair's face carefully, although very vague, he seems to be showing signs of appreciating the display.

Three more horses, quickly en route, arrival shortly after, no doubt with thanks to the guard headquarters' proximity. They promptly dismount, and lash the horses with strong rope - the other ends are brought towards a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair. [Player]


Vanson looks at the horses looking around.


Keiten budges to one side momentarily and glances towards Vanson looking disturbed.


Cassilyn does not seem to catch Nathanial 's eye, however. Her gaze is affixed on the woman and the horses, the wide blue eyes becoming progressively wider as the connotation strikes her. "No!" she gasps; however, in the bustle of the gathering crowd, it is highly unlikely that anyone would hear her.

Breaking into fit of hoarse sobs, a shabby looking woman with shoulder-length hair sags her head to her chest, covering her head over her thin arms. "Sweet mercy 'o Dav!" she yelps, "Save m' murderin' soul!" [Player]
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Old 09-19-2009, 04:03 AM   #30
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Hmm,

I've seen this type of structure on several MUDs and a few MUSHes but not any with a significant playerbase.

The pose+say combo I see alot on NWA with players that like to do that, but it doesn't happen all the time because what is used is a standard emote where you have to put in your own quotes, etc. I suppose a function could be given with that like an smote, which would be a functional emote allowing the say to be embedded where ever you wanted it. I just don't see how much more speedy or helpful such a function would be.
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Old 09-19-2009, 04:34 AM   #31
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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Ergh no, it doesn't do the same thing, IMO. I can imagine how such a restriction would inhibit the flow of writing, especially since I tend to mix actions and words in emotes almost 100% of the time.
Ah, I see what you mean. None of the RPIs that I'm aware of do what you're asking. SoI, like the other RPIs, incorporate code to duplicate more real-world based mechanics, not literary style (though I had English professors who'd shudder at the form displayed in that example ).

Your best bet is probably a MUSH though as has already been pointed out most don't have very large playerbases.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 09-19-2009, 10:18 AM   #32
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Ah, yes, literary-style! That would be a good way to describe it. I found FiranMUX from some other thread here and am trying it too. There doesn't seem to be much going on in public areas though.

I agree that the example was nowhere near book quality, especially due to slightly wonky dynamic targetting, the fact that we have to ensure that we don't twink anyone, and, as someone here mentioned, the inability to regulate just how everyone RPs. I'm not bothered with whether or not I can send the logs in as an English Major essay, though -- as long as there is some detail as portrayed in the example, I'm happy.

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Hmm,

I've seen this type of structure on several MUDs and a few MUSHes but not any with a significant playerbase.

The pose+say combo I see alot on NWA with players that like to do that, but it doesn't happen all the time because what is used is a standard emote where you have to put in your own quotes, etc. I suppose a function could be given with that like an smote, which would be a functional emote allowing the say to be embedded where ever you wanted it. I just don't see how much more speedy or helpful such a function would be.
Yes, usually an emote is used and then speech added manually -- that is fine, no need for further functions. I did hear that in SOI even that was not allowed by the game functions, though.
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Old 09-19-2009, 11:30 AM   #33
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Hmmm...it's been a few years since I last tried out Firan (2006) and it was pretty dead then too much like the other half dozen times I'd tried it. That's always been a bit disappointing because it looked pretty good from descriptions. Good luck!
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:57 PM   #34
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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Hmmm...it's been a few years since I last tried out Firan (2006) and it was pretty dead then too much like the other half dozen times I'd tried it. That's always been a bit disappointing because it looked pretty good from descriptions. Good luck!
Firan usually has a high number of logins relative to other mushes. Over the past year their weekly average has been about 65. However a lot of those logins might not be actively playing, and especially not playing with new players, so I grant you that. ;D

Handling emotes in a game where you have coded effects always brings up the problem of twinking, but you can get around that problem in several ways, and in my opinion there is no substitute for the ease, simplicity, and richness an emote (or pose as it's called in mushes) can bring to a RP game.
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Old 09-19-2009, 02:31 PM   #35
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Just an update for you kind souls who've been trying to help me so far.

Tried Dark Isles and like it so far. Unfortunately, the player base seems quite as scant as TI's. FML.
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Old 09-19-2009, 02:49 PM   #36
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Misao, I think I understand what you are talking about. On Threshold, people do that sort of thing with the standard emotes (grin + anything else, as long as you want), the free form emote command, and the premote command (an emote command that includes text before your character's name). You can have quotes, speech, whatever inside.

Most people break things up and do all their "says" via the say command, for two main reasons though:

1) Many people find it more readable to have things broken up rather than in very long text blocks.

2) By using the say command, the spoken stuff goes into someone's "say" buffer, so they can type "last say" and see the last 20 says they heard.
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Old 09-19-2009, 02:51 PM   #37
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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2) By using the say command, the spoken stuff goes into someone's "say" buffer, so they can type "last say" and see the last 20 says they heard.
So is everyone on threshold a terminator that can record and playback conversations? Real realistic.
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Old 09-19-2009, 03:10 PM   #38
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

Delerak, I think there already is a new thread for you to post your grievances in.

Threshold, I like the huge blocks of text! Not too huge, but 2-3 lines feels just right to me. Personal preference, hee.
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Old 09-19-2009, 03:32 PM   #39
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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So is everyone on threshold a terminator that can record and playback conversations? Real realistic.
Actually the last command on Threshold is ooc as a help for the players. Only the player using it would do so for that purpose. Similar to commands like score, skills, or even help files. Which are there for player reference, not roleplay ic.
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Old 09-19-2009, 10:04 PM   #40
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Re: Looking for RP-focused MUD with as little combat as possible

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Just an update for you kind souls who've been trying to help me so far.

Tried Dark Isles and like it so far. Unfortunately, the player base seems quite as scant as TI's. FML.
If the number of players is critical for you, then maybe you should be looking at MUDStats.Com: statistics and infomation on MUD/MUCK/MUSH/MUX/MOO games. You can filter both by genre and by codebase there, and you can even look at connections by hour. The last might be critical for you if you're in a different time zone than most of a game's players (which I suspect might be happening since you don't seem to be finding many about on what seem to be well-populated games).

Honestly, though, there aren't all that many "medieval fantasy" games that would seem to meet all of your requirements. Maybe Road to Amber (telnet://roadtoamber.com:6250)? Mind you, their Byzantine RP-management system gives me a migraine, but others might really like it. Possibly Shadow Siege (telnet://shadowsiege.com:4080)?I don't know how active they are any more, but their emote/say system was pretty straightforward for a MUD. Beyond that, though, I'm drawing blanks.
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