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Old 09-19-2009, 04:56 PM   #41
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
Its such a shame that a small / shrinking community spends so much time playing one upmanship and engaging in arguments over semantics instead of trying to strengthen the community and keeping these arguments to private posts.

Anyone taking a small dip into the world of muds and finding this site is not going to stay long with some of the attitudes on display.
Very true. It does look childish and petty to a new reader.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:36 PM   #42
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
Perhaps you just need to actually read and answer a question rather than going off on tangents like some cheap politician. In all that hogwash you never answered the basic question. Read it again and perhaps, try again. I know it is difficult when you are only thinking of deceit, selfishness, and distasteful qualities....
I did answer the question but you don't want to accept my motives as your immediate comment following your question indicated. My motives for paying for the hosting were simply to keep the site running since Wade no longer wished to run it. Plain and simple as that.

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I also loved your comment on how polarizing you are. Oh the comedy.
I don't deny that some people don't like me. It's a fact. It's also a fact that some people do like me. I don't lose sleep one way or the other. Most people who know me like me and the ones that don't typically aren't people I like either. I do tend to get along with a wide variety of people with notable exceptions being extreme religious fundamentalists, racists, sexists, homophobes, liars, thieves, rapists, sex offenders, murderers and (unjustifiably) egotistical, ignorant morons. Take your pick which of these applies to you.

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What you meant by "foaming at the mouth" was that my posts "sounded like" or "read like" I was foaming at the mouth in anger, et al. I get that, apparently you didn't.
And there you go again assuming you know what other people say and mean. I did not mean that you "sounded like" or "read like" you were angry, I meant you went off making irrational claims and assumptions. I can't possibly know if you're angry. You may be smiling and calmly sipping a cup of coffee for all I know.

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Originally Posted by Newworlds
He is referring to his game and other games like his as lacking Elite RP. Elite/expert. Not too hard to wrap your mind around.
He neither said nor implied that he or his game possessed "'elite' RP", he referred to other games as desiring the association. That's not calling himself an expert. The only person to draw that conclusion was you. See the above comment about your assumptions.

Last edited by prof1515 : 09-19-2009 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 09-19-2009, 07:36 PM   #43
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by MudMann
Anyone taking a small dip into the world of muds and finding this site is not going to stay long with some of the attitudes on display.
Well, there's more wrong with the community than simply public disagreements. The root of the problem really seems to be an excess of competition without a similar degree of ethics as well as a lack of any real community organization or standards. A simple check of merely a handful of games in the listings typically reveals one or more that lie about their features or playerbase size. Then you've got Locke showing up every few months and claiming he invented OLC, YouTube and probably oxygen as well. You've got games arguing their own personal definitions of everything to justify calling themselves "free" or "RPI" because they think it'll bring in more players or that they're simply entitled to do so. You've got a community where people view clicking a voting link as some measure of quality but kick and scream in opposition to the thought of peer-based review. You've got a community where every game wants to call themselves "the best" but under no circumstances do they want to put that claim to the test of comparative analysis. You've got a community that doesn't want to hold liars and thieves accountable for their actions whether it's falsifying their playerbase figures or lying about their features or violating code licenses. Is a public argument any worse than all of that?

I for one am sick of it. My breaking point was many years ago after years of numerous incidents. One time I came across a game that called itself RPI and as I enjoy playing RPIs, take an interest in the history and status of the RPI community and have spent the last decade playing or creating them, I checked it out. Simply put, the game wasn't even close to being RPI. Jesus, it was stock right down to Midgaard and the beastly fidos. They claimed they were RPI and that I had to RP and yet I spawned without any clothes in Midgaard with the beastly fidos chewing up abandoned swords and corpses. Role-play as what, a nudist in a stock-code world?

About that same time I was going through TMC's listings of "level-less MUDs" and logged into one only to find it was filled with levels. A bit annoyed to have wasted my time on a game that wasn't listed properly, I informed their staff of the error. They argued that they were "level-less". I pointed to the fact that according to the score command, I was a level x this and a level y that. "We ignore those," was his reply. I pointed out that I couldn't use a particular weapon though because I wasn't to level z so it was clear that the levels couldn't just be ignored. Yeah, silence from them on that one.

In late 2006 I was working on several reviews for Wade's rpimud.com and one of the things I did was document playerbase activity. With one game, I found that while they claimed that they typically averaged 10-20 players online, only twice in the 2-3 week period I evaluated them did they have more than 10 on (and even then it was only 11 and 13). The other 99% of the time they averaged between 2-3 (or 1-2 if you excluded me). For about a third of the day I was the only player on the game. Under no circumstances is that an average of 10-20 players. And thanks to the fact that their code revealed their "most users online" via the "who" command, I knew that the most they'd ever had was 15 about a month or two earlier suggesting it's very unlikely they were averaging 10 or more prior to the period of my evaluation.

Over on the old rpimud.com there were H&S and pure PK MUDs that occassionally listed themselves. The question of whether they were RPI or not aside, they weren't even Role-Play MUDs. Hell, the last one I deleted from the listings said on their website that they weren't a role-playing MUD, simply "a pure PK MUD". Nevertheless, they chose to list themselves on rpimud.com anyway. And don't get me started on the vote tampering that occurred with the old rpimud.com clicky voting. Aside from games exploiting loopholes in the vote code (possibly accidental exploitation), we had people deliberately creating multiple accounts to circumvent the one-vote-per-person policy. A few months ago I accidently discovered that one of the vote cheaters was an admin on a game whose owner swore up and down for weeks that no one on his game would ever, ever cheat and if they did he would have known (we were fairly certain someone from their game was cheating since deletion of the bogus multiple accounts had an impact on numerous games' vote totals the following week, including theirs). Lies, exaggerations, cheating...it's wasn't confined merely to that site. It's symptomatic across the MU* community.

WoW doesn't claim that they're a first-person shooter. Halo doesn't claim that they have 62 billion players. But left and right, MU*s make outrageous claims and present false information. Why? Because this community doesn't hold them accountable and thus they can. Sometimes it's because the people here are lazy, sometimes it's because they're apathetic, sometimes it's because they're lying about their own games too. Whatever the reason, they do little or nothing and that is far, far more damaging to this community than anything else. Personally though, I refuse to be one of those people.

I will point out errors, exagerrations and outright lies. I will correct people when they use incorrect terms and I will call people out when they deliberately attempt to mislead. It's who I am. When someone calls a dolphin a fish or a spider an insect, I correct them. When someone points to a chimpanzee and says, "monkey" I explain the difference. When someone lies, I call them on it. I realize that doesn't make me popular with some people. I almost got kicked out of college when a crooked administrator that I was publicly exposing as such tried to claim an accident, one I reported myself, was deliberate as well as exagerrate the damage in the hopes of getting me expelled (fortunately I documented the details of the incident and was able to prove I had not meant to do it as well as refute his exaggerations as to the extent of the damage). Despite the incident, I did not stop pointing out his shady behavior (or that of his superiors). Last summer when I was preparing for my departure to Europe, an employee of the hotel I was staying at mentioned something that sounded a lot like human trafficking, I got as many details as I could and called the FBI. I never met the girl in question or the couple that "bought her" and I've never been back to that hotel so it has never had any impact on me since but I'm not the type of person that doesn't act when I hear of something which just doesn't add up. If that makes me a jerk, that's something I'll take as a compliment.

My attitude is that if MUD owners want to attract more players, build a game that players will want to play. If they don't like what you've built, change your game to suit their needs, don't simply claim it's something else. If you're happy with your game the way it is then learn to accept the number of people that are interested in it. Don't exaggerate your playerbase figures, don't lie about your features, don't call yourself "RPI" or "free" or anything else unless you really are. If visitors to this site come in and see discontent, it's because there's cause for discontent and maybe the community needs to do something about the source of that discontent rather than complaining about the disagreements that result because of it.

So yes, I'm going to point out misuse of the term RPI. There's plenty of other terms for role-play MU*s that don't have a distinct historical reference to a particular type of game. I don't care if MUDs like the sound of it or feel they can call themselves anything they want. For players who have used that term since its creation to identify the type of game they play and prefer the use of the term, whether as a result of ignorance or deliberate deceit, it is an inconvenience and a disservice.

There's a helluva lot more for this community to be embarassed about than disagreements on the forums.

Later,

Jason

Last edited by prof1515 : 09-20-2009 at 07:18 AM. Reason: P*ssed is flitered? LOL
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #44
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

Is this cat really worth responding to?
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:50 PM   #45
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

The problem with Prof1515 is that he is the biggest offender of everything he finds atrocious about others..
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:22 AM   #46
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
You've got a community where every game wants to call themselves "the best" but under no circumstances do they want to put that claim to the test of comparative analysis.
I have never called my little game "the best" or even "one of the best". It is what it is, a hobby, a labor of love, and a continuing text-art project.

While this comment from you may have just been hyperbole ("every game"), the fact that it was incorrect needed to be pointed out. I actually find myself in agreement with you on a number of points, so please do not take this as an attack.
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Old 09-20-2009, 04:10 AM   #47
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

There isn't a MUD out there that I know of, a public one actively seeking players anyway, that doesn't try to somehow plug their mud as having some of the best of _____. You see it in mud advertisements all the time. I'm sure there are muds that don't advertise or care, but those aren't exactly a part of the mud community then. They are just hobbies as you say. Most people take their mud as much more than a hobby.
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Old 09-20-2009, 04:29 AM   #48
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
There isn't a MUD out there that I know of, a public one actively seeking players anyway, that doesn't try to somehow plug their mud as having some of the best of _____. You see it in mud advertisements all the time.
Glad to enlighten you. Now you know of one.


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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
I'm sure there are muds that don't advertise or care, but those aren't exactly a part of the mud community then.
We don't advertise much beyond listings, and the occasional "you could give us a try" if I feel that the seeker may find something at our game that they have posted. Players have posted reviews from time to time, but I am not sure I would count that as the game advertising itself.

I can say "I care", and perhaps even venture "we care" (though I do not want to speak for other staff members feelings).

Do we qualify for one of these fancy "mud community" cards?

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They are just hobbies as you say. Most people take their mud as much more than a hobby.
For being just a "hobby", it does take up 30+ hours a week. Thank the flying spaghetti monster for coffee and insomnia (maybe there is a link...?).

What do you mean by "much more then a hobby"? Can you elaborate?
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Old 09-20-2009, 04:37 AM   #49
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

It becomes a project. You're putting in 30+ hours a week which is akin to a job in my opinion. Which is fine. But if you don't have strong feelings about your mud I would call you a liar. You must be passionate else you wouldn't be spending so much time on it. In that regard (not necessarily you), people will tout their muds and when they advertise they make claims that are unrealistic and simply not true.

For instance, having the best pk mud or best roleplay is an all too common adage in the slew of muds that are out there. I doubt such a thing exists, much like trying to find the best cheesecake. Everybody likes different things so the aspects of something change per person. Unfortunately in advertisements things aren't moderated and people are allowed to claim that you can MUD with the president if you want. If advertisements were forced only to stick to facts rather than opinions you wouldn't have the issue that Prof was describing.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:31 AM   #50
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Anjanas View Post
The problem with Prof1515 is that he is the biggest offender of everything he finds atrocious about others..
Please elaborate with some proof of this statement. I find it curious you'd think that since I don't hype my game (in fact, I doubt many people here are even aware of its name), have never exaggerated playerbase statistics or features of a MUD, do not twist the definition of words to mean something else or any of the other behavior I find distasteful. I try to live my life as honestly as I possibly can, even to a fault at times (I once lost a scholarship in college by pointing out that I may not qualify for it for a five-day period and that aforementioned corrupt administrator jumped on the chance to check and deny it to me; if I'd simply remained quiet, in 5 more days I'd have regained my qualification and no one would have known except me). When the time comes to list my game, it will be listed according to its actual features and details, not in broad terms or in every category possible just to attract players. In fact, our staff agreed long ago that we'd focus on a particular type of player and would have no problem with a small playerbase if it meant that other types of players weren't interested. So please explain your statement unless it's just random libel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabus
I have never called my little game "the best" or even "one of the best". It is what it is, a hobby, a labor of love, and a continuing text-art project.

While this comment from you may have just been hyperbole ("every game"), the fact that it was incorrect needed to be pointed out. I actually find myself in agreement with you on a number of points, so please do not take this as an attack.
Consider it "nearly every game" then. No offense taken.

Jason

Last edited by prof1515 : 09-20-2009 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:49 AM   #51
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
It becomes a project. You're putting in 30+ hours a week which is akin to a job in my opinion. Which is fine. But if you don't have strong feelings about your mud I would call you a liar. You must be passionate else you wouldn't be spending so much time on it.
Glad you are not calling me names.

Sure, I have strong feelings about it.

Spent years planning, designing, preparing, working for others and then after the last MUD I worked for that went "poof" (after 6 months as the coder the admin disappeared without warning, and let's not even bring up the one before that that did about the same, or the one before, or the...) I said "the heck with it" and started this one myself. Will be 3 years on this project next month.

I have to much time into gaming and coding to call my game "the best". It would be a subjective opinion colored by feelings, and how would anyone define "best" to begin with?

I am just working toward putting what I like in a MUD into my game. Working from my notes (let's not mention they are "boxes of notebooks", k?) and what I term "the LIST".

We are just letting the players come and go, and it is my hope that they find some entertainment while there. The numbers are low (0-10 usually, with 10 making me think "Oh my!"), but I do it for the game-world, not for player-base numbers.

To kind of return to topic, I have considered us as "Role-play Expected", in that "says" and and "emotes" (and other such things) should be IC, but no one is going to follow "the fella that logs in for 20 minutes a day to slay orcs" around with a stick and beat him until he role-plays with everyone else. As long as players stay IC there are no issues (in my mind, and in our game). Somewhere more then "Encouraged" but less then "Enforced" is where I want us to head.

Sometimes things can get so far into role-play that some player-enjoyment can be lost.

I remember creating a character for SOI. I walked out the gate the first time and was shot with arrows. I quickly moved away, and after I scouted around and saw some people, humans like I was, I went to them to seek aid for my injuries... and was immediately set upon, beaten, bound and hauled off to a prison.

This was good stuff! What great role-play!

But sitting for (I believe it was) four real-life days in a cell by myself, emoting, just didn't cut it. I would send out the messages for times I was available, and only once did someone show up (for 10 minutes, but then they had to leave). They told me I was a prisoner of war, and was to be executed. I plead my case IC, but OOC conversations showed there was nothing I could do about it.

So ended that role-play. Realistic, but not very fun with perma-death, especially with a brand new character's first glimpse of a world.

Moderation in all things, I don't know. But if realism at the complete expense of player-fun is a requirement for some games I prefer not to play them, nor create one of their kind.

Excuse me. I need more coffee.
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Old 09-20-2009, 06:38 AM   #52
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Mabus View Post
I remember creating a character for SOI. I walked out the gate the first time and was shot with arrows. I quickly moved away, and after I scouted around and saw some people, humans like I was, I went to them to seek aid for my injuries... and was immediately set upon, beaten, bound and hauled off to a prison.

This was good stuff! What great role-play!

But sitting for (I believe it was) four real-life days in a cell by myself, emoting, just didn't cut it. I would send out the messages for times I was available, and only once did someone show up (for 10 minutes, but then they had to leave). They told me I was a prisoner of war, and was to be executed. I plead my case IC, but OOC conversations showed there was nothing I could do about it.

So ended that role-play. Realistic, but not very fun with perma-death, especially with a brand new character's first glimpse of a world.

Moderation in all things, I don't know. But if realism at the complete expense of player-fun is a requirement for some games I prefer not to play them, nor create one of their kind.

Excuse me. I need more coffee.
It's odd that there wasn't anyone on staff who noticed you in a cell sooner than four days. Might have been a case of slipping through the cracks. It's hard to say as I haven't been on SoI's staff since January of 2005 and can't really attest to the quality of the staff nowadays or their frequency online.

Sounds like you walked from one city to an opposing one. The situation is much the same as those hikers that Iran captured. The two sides are very suspicious of one another (as they're at war) and thus show no mercy to the enemy. I do know we had to crack down on players from one city going to the other because some people were treating it like a vacation. At one point over half of the humans created in Morgul were going to Osgiliath. But again, it's been a while since I've been on SoI's staff so I can't really say for certain.

Of course, if SoI or any RPI didn't meet your preference there's no harm in not playing again. It's what you should do if you find a game doesn't meet your taste. You're better off not playing and they're probably better off not having a disgruntled player who doesn't enjoy their particular game.

Your case doesn't sound like it but there are cases where the use of the term RPI by non-RPIs does create that situation. Players come into games with expectations based on that term and find disappointment because those expectations were not met. It's not necessarily the player's fault for having unrealistic expectations and it's not necessarily the game's fault for failing to meet them. The fault lies in the misuse of a term which created the unrealistic expecations either because the game incorrectly called itself RPI or the player didn't understand the meaning of the term. That shouldn't happen. The creation of the term way back when was meant to help identify a particular type of game and help those interested in that type of game find one a home with others who shared that interest.

Jason

P.S. -- If aside from that incident you did find SoI interesting, I would recommend playing in the city of Minas Tirith. From nearly all trustworthy accounts I've received, I understand that it is their best location for RP and if you stay inside the city you'll both be safe and be more likely to find the best RP they have to offer.

Last edited by prof1515 : 09-20-2009 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 09-20-2009, 11:26 AM   #53
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Personal preference.

Your post doesn't really read very educated either as you listed Threshold as an RPI. It clearly is not. There are more aspects that make a mud RPI rather then just staying in-character at all times. The most prominent being permanent death, and an realistic world design.

People can play what they want, but every mud is going to be proud of itself. That's just the norme. People get fanatic over one game a lot. I think it's stupid, but it happens and always will happen. You will have players that are obsessed over one mud and that's it. So they will fight tooth and nail for their point of views and opinions to be the correct ones.
Threshold not intense? What becuase you cant type 'think'.. surely that is something best catered to in the mind of the players themselves.. not RPI because it does not want to lose players with permadeath? Realistic world design.. the only liberty I saw with that was the south road.. the last location of which (after maybe 20 SOUTH commands which is about 5 mins of game time) was you are X00's of KM south of Sable... apart from that it is one of the most explorable and sensible worlds I have played in (in a list over over 20 muds)

When I played threshold, I lived, breathed my character. I didnt see black and white text.. I saw colours, heard the sounds, smelt the air, felt the ground and the trees all helped by every single sense being catered to in every single location and on a random scale so you didnt get the same description every time, and also had one of the easiest to use emote / preemote systems yet.

This is not a defense of Threshold, but a counter to your utterly biased opinion against it. Not a single game out there, not even Armaggedon has managed to suck me in as much, and the main reason I dont play it anymore as it was far 'too' intense and ingame events could affect my real life mood.

Players staying in charcter is one of the single biggest contribution factors to something being intense, not one or two commands difference or a difference in game mechanics.

I suppose what we need to do really is redefine the scale / method of categorisation to something every one can accept. I dont think it would be such a far stretch for a collaboration between all the big sites to define such a scale, if the oneupmanship / bickering / personal attacks can be put to oneside for a short time.

Maybe the RPI tag needs casting into the bin as not a single person can agree on what it means anymore, and 'Intense Features' being brought in as an 'umberella' category which can define a game as intense. For example I think we can agree on the defnition of a Role Playing game.. agreed?

However if a game ticks any of the following boxes, it can be defined as 'Intense'.

1) Does game have permadeath
2) Does the game force players to be IC at all times when in the game arena
3) Are 'secret, non-game affecting, player specific commands encouraged' such as feel or think

Or maybe a weighted scale where points are totalled up and measure against a table of 0 - 100

Permadeath + 15
Non-permadeath - 5
Incharacter enforced + 10
No OOC disucssion within game arena + 5
Unrealistic Communications between characters (such as whisper, guild channels) with no logical 'transport device' - 5
Eqipment saved on characters person after death -5
Think and Feel allowed + 10
OOC Actions and speech allowed -20
Realistic weather patterns and temperate zones + 5
Full 'sensory' descriptions allowed + 5
Level-less system + 10
Real time combat with constant user interaction + 1
PvP allowed at all times + 5
Stats based mechanics -5


All games start at 50 on the scale.. with 0 being 'Just a game, talk about baseball if yout want' and 100 being 'Forget real life, this game will take over it' and anything about 80 being defined as Role Playing Intense?
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:24 PM   #54
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
Players staying in charcter is one of the single biggest contribution factors to something being intense, not one or two commands difference or a difference in game mechanics.
Role-Play Intensive (or Role-Playing Intensive if you prefer) is not the same thing as "intense role-play". It's an adjective much in the same vein as "labor-intensive". Just as a "rose-red flower" and a "red rose flower" are not the same thing (the latter refers to the flower of the rose plant, the former could refer to a red carnation or a red tulip), so too is the difference with Role-Playing Intensive and intense role-playing.

Quote:
I suppose what we need to do really is redefine the scale / method of categorisation to something every one can accept...
Quote:
1) Does game have permadeath
2) Does the game force players to be IC at all times when in the game arena
3) Are 'secret, non-game affecting, player specific commands encouraged' such as feel or think

Or maybe a weighted scale where points are totalled up and measure against a table of 0 - 100

Permadeath + 15
Non-permadeath - 5
Incharacter enforced + 10
No OOC disucssion within game arena + 5
Unrealistic Communications between characters (such as whisper, guild channels) with no logical 'transport device' - 5
Eqipment saved on characters person after death -5
Think and Feel allowed + 10
OOC Actions and speech allowed -20
Realistic weather patterns and temperate zones + 5
Full 'sensory' descriptions allowed + 5
Level-less system + 10
Real time combat with constant user interaction + 1
PvP allowed at all times + 5
Stats based mechanics -5


All games start at 50 on the scale.. with 0 being 'Just a game, talk about baseball if yout want' and 100 being 'Forget real life, this game will take over it' and anything about 80 being defined as Role Playing Intense?
The problem with creating any scale is agreeing on what constitutes it. Every game intent on using the term RPI would try to adjust the scale to make the cut-off point just below their own applied total. One game will only score 78 and will recommend the cut-off point be 75. Another game will only score 73 and argue that it should be 70.

Technically speaking, there already is a list of features to which the term first applied and to which you can tick off to determine if a game is Role-Playing Intensive or not. An attempt was made to discern the original meaning of the term by comparing the first two games to which the term was applied and to which there is consensus as to their status as RPI. As a result, the following list of code and policy characteristics was derived.

Quote:
1. Strict in-character behavior enforcement: Players are expected to remain in-character at all times while in the game and speak and act as their character would (exceptions existing only for issues of emergency assistance). This feature is found in RPOs and RPEs as well.

2. World-driven code: RPIs are designed around the philosophy that code design follows world design. Rather than the characteristics and nature of the game’s world conforming to the parameters and features of the code, RPIs’ adapt the code to fit the needs of the world’s characteristics.

3. Mechanics-based world and use-based advancement: RPIs employ code where possible to simulate the mechanics and chances of success in things such as communication (ie, understanding languages), combat, or production of articles (ie, crafting).

4. Use-based advancement: RPIs employ use-based advancement of skills and abilities in place of traditional methods of point allocation. Use of a skill or ability is the only way to improve that skill or ability, either through direct use or via crafts.

5. Descriptive, generalized skill aptitude and abilities/attributes: A character’s aptitude in the skills they possess is represented through descriptive, generalized terms which prevent precision in assessment and advancement. Likewise, a character’s physical and mental attributes such as strength and intelligence are represented by descriptive, generalized terms to prevent precise assessment.

6. An enhanced emote system: RPIs feature a system of emotes and similar commands by which actions not dictated by code functions may be carried out.

7. Permanent character death: With the exception of non-IC-related incidents, death is permanent and typical MUD resurrection systems are not present.

8. Lack of global out-of-character (OOC) channels for player use: Use of semi-global channels is limited in range and function and all OOC channels are restricted only for limited staff use.

9. Lack of a detailed “who” list: The traditional “who” command is limited by removing a list of players or characters online and showing only total numbers online or via complete removal of this function altogether.

10. Detailed character creation and staff approval: Players are expected to submit detailed characters with full descriptions and personality backgrounds subject to approval before entering the game.

11. Lack of levels: Traditional MUD levels are not employed by RPIs.

12. Lack of traditional mud-classes: Traditional, confining code-based classes found on most MUDs, typically used to categorize character types, are absent from RPIs. Some RPIs use “classes” or “professions” which serve merely as tools for skill selection but which do not require adherence or limitation only to those skills and professions.

13. Lack of experience point systems: RPIs feature a complete lack of “experience point” systems (XP).

14. Description-based identities: Characters are only identifiable by descriptions and other information that could be gleaned through observation alone.

15. Description-based objects: Objects feature descriptions which are used to judge their quality or identity (for example, no “Sword of Billy the Merciless”).

16. Described rooms: RPIs feature rooms with detailed IC descriptions.

17. Detailed world design: RPIs feature comprehensive world designs encompassing the various aspects of socio-cultural characteristics of the setting. These include but are not limited to political, historical, economic, and religious systems which provide players with depth to the setting and a clear framework in which their character exists.

18. Single character per player: RPIs possess a policy limiting players to possession of one character at a time and multi-playing is strictly forbidden.

19. In-character situation-dependant killing: Killing is restricted to require in-character motivations for the killing of PCs and NPCs. The goal of RPIs is not to kill to advance or to kill without regard for the setting and situation (ie, laws and justifiable reason to break such laws).
To date, at least 31 games, some which have never opened and some which have been open since the early-to-mid '90s, have met these characteristics including those to which the term was first applied. These games represent at least 4 different lines of code development and several different means of implementing these 19 characteristics. Nevertheless, they are all similar as a result of these same 19 characteristics and quite often their players and staff have moved between game to game.

The problem is that games which don't meet those characteristics continue to abuse the term. One might be missing 4 of these characteristics while another is missing 4 completely different ones. Yet another may only possess those 8 missing from the other two. All still want to call themselves RPI.

Hence even with another list like the one you made, a game that only registered a 22 might still try and call themselves RPI either because they disagree with your scale or because they just "think" that they're RPI anyway. The problem isn't a lack of definition, it's an unwillingness by some games in the MU* community to cease using a term which doesn't apply to them and a general unwillingness by the community to enforce any type of standard usage for that term or really anything else.

Take care,

Jason

P.S. -0- As a side note, your scale would allow for a maximum of 116, not 100.
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:46 PM   #55
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

For the record, the lines of code development include:

1. Armageddon, from which I'm not aware of any other game using.

2. Harshlands, from which several off-shoots have evolved. The first was FEM which modified the code slightly and whose modifications were used for FE2 and Dark Horizon. The second was Shadows of Isildur (SoI) which in late 2003 made its code available online for download as the SoI RPI Engine. From this emerged the short-lived Argila variant which was used by several other games, none of which made it to opening (or if they did, have yet to open). Another game using the RPI Engine was the now-closed Lost Tales of Beleriand whose code is now being used by Atonement. Additionally, Black Sands uses the RPI Engine but is modifying the code to more closely resemble the style of Armageddon.

3. Southlands, which was developed from CircleMUD and appears to have been used for the apparently-closed Four Lands.

4. The Streets of Yesterday (TSOY) is using NakedMUD.

Additionally, there are at least two other code development projects not associated with any particular game which are attempting to create new codebases which could be used to create RPI MUDs while maintaining options for adaptation into other non-RPI games as well. One of these projects is being attempted by Japheth, a former coder on SoI and the other is by Auroness who was responsible for the Argila variant of the RPI Engine.

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Old 09-20-2009, 04:30 PM   #56
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

This is almost becoming a silly topic. Think for a moment what would happen if a group of Role-Play Enforced games started whining about anyone who used the term RPE who didn't follow their 19 code and policy characteristics. It would sound pretentious and foolish, I'd think.

I mean, think of this: "No you are not Role-Play Enforced. You might be Enforced Role-Play, but dammit man, you are definately not Role-Play Enforced according to what WE believe is RPE and what WE established as RPE so stop calling yourself that!"
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:11 PM   #57
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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This is almost becoming a silly topic. Think for a moment what would happen if a group of Role-Play Enforced games started whining about anyone who used the term RPE who didn't follow their 19 code and policy characteristics. It would sound pretentious and foolish, I'd think.

I mean, think of this: "No you are not Role-Play Enforced. You might be Enforced Role-Play, but dammit man, you are definately not Role-Play Enforced according to what WE believe is RPE and what WE established as RPE so stop calling yourself that!"
Except that the term RPE was not originally coined to describe their type of game. The term only has come to represent games with enforced role-play. However, if a game did not have enforced role-play and called itself Role-Play Enforced than that would be a case of an incorrect use of the term (if it were the result of ignorance; it would be a lie if the result of deliberate deceit).

You also continue to reverse wording in an attempt to argue against a different term than Role-Play Intensive. It's been demonstrated numerous times that this term is different than "intense role-play".

The term Real-Time Strategy or RTS was coined for games where actions operate in real-time yet many of these games have accelerated "year" counters and other features which do not operate according to "real time". Take the Age of Empires series where a "year" goes by every couple seconds. You can also construct a building in seconds. If you build and hold a wonder for 200 "years" and you win but the "years" are not really years so is it appropriate to call it "real-time"? The term was coined for a specific type of game and a particular aspect of that game where the concept of "real-time" is a function (in this case, the execution of actions without the use of turns). Furthermore, the term "real-time" is part of "Real-Time Strategy". The phrase as a whole is an adjective in reference to the means by which you execute strategy within the game, not the passage of time itself. Chess is not RTS even though a real-life chess game involves the same actions, use of turns, and waiting that an online version does.

Finally, calling something "silly" or "pretentious" or "foolish" is also a matter of opinion.
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:38 PM   #58
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by prof1515 View Post
Except that the term RPE was not originally coined to describe their type of game. The term only has come to represent games with enforced role-play. However, if a game did not have enforced role-play and called itself Role-Play Enforced than that would be a case of an incorrect use of the term (if it were the result of ignorance; it would be a lie if the result of deliberate deceit).
You have a real strange belief that many Admins in the MUD community are out to lie and deceive players, even to the point of claiming someone could be a homophobe, rapist, and even murderer (completely uncalled for and beyond insulting). While some may not accurately define their games in "your" terms, I just don't see this intentional deceit.

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Finally, calling something "silly" or "pretentious" or "foolish" is also a matter of opinion.
As is calling something Role-Play Intensive. The opinion of the player, not 19 code and policy characteristics.

Despite your claim to education and intelligence (or rather your insult to everyone elses intelligence or education), you cannot grasp the simple concept that all the terms you bring up as examples to RPI do not have the same litmus test that you give to RPI.

RPE, NFL, REAL-TIME are all terms that can be defined by a singular yes or no question. RPE-Are you enforcing RP or not? NFL-Are you in the national football league or not? REAL-TIME: does your game utilize real time or not. Even RPI can be answered with one question, RPI: Is your game Role-Play Intensive or not? The trouble is, the last one is opinion, the others are not.
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Old 09-20-2009, 08:05 PM   #59
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

I'm afraid this is quite a futile topic as the muds that claim to be Roleplay Enforced don't enforce roleplay at all anyway. RPI's don't even really enforce roleplay. I've seen plenty of players on all muds that don't really roleplay at all. They are the same player every time you see them. The term roleplay is also contested to mean many different things to many different people.

To some roleplay simply means an 'escape from reality'. To me it means something much more. Much like acting, taking on a role, and staying in-character while you're roleplaying. Others prefer global OOC channels so they can break character constantly and talk about IC things and laugh about it.
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Old 09-20-2009, 08:37 PM   #60
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Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
I'm afraid this is quite a futile topic as the muds that claim to be Roleplay Enforced don't enforce roleplay at all anyway. RPI's don't even really enforce roleplay. I've seen plenty of players on all muds that don't really roleplay at all. They are the same player every time you see them. The term roleplay is also contested to mean many different things to many different people.

To some roleplay simply means an 'escape from reality'. To me it means something much more. Much like acting, taking on a role, and staying in-character while you're roleplaying. Others prefer global OOC channels so they can break character constantly and talk about IC things and laugh about it.
I'm afraid I'm agreeing with you way to much lately. But what you say above here is very true much of the time. Roleplay does indeed mean something different to people, which is why it is hard to determine who is a good roleplayer or not except by your own standards.

In NWA we have a help file to encourage serious in depth roleplay and it talks about the importance of tuning out channels and staying off of AIM and other ways to be what we call GAOR or the Golden Advice of Roleplay. While not all follow it, many do and find the experience better for it.

Some would say getting rid of all channels would help and sometimes I agree, but, you can't force a person to get rid of 3rd party chat rooms or to stay ic 100% while gaming (which would be ideal, but impossible if outside interruptions, phones and so forth intervene). So we do what we can to accomodate while trying to help to get the best of roleplay.
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