[misao]

Originally Posted by Delerak You're an idiot. I would be resorting to ad hominem if it weren't true.

Edit: I've received a kind reminder from a fellow forumer and have removed my response to this. If you wish to continue slinging baseless insults at me, that's your call.

The quality of writing depends on the player, the clan you're in.. there are so many factors involved you have to know certain things before playing a certain character. Armageddon isn't one dimensional, it allows for tons of different characters, and players to play the MUD. If you know that some great writers are playing in Clan X, then you can go to join them. Or you can try to attract players to you and your clan by showing what a great writer and emoter you are.

So tell me, where are they? I'm not just basing my claims on my own experience. I've seen the logs that other players who support Armageddon have posted here. Why don't you post some of your own to back up your claims?

Either way, you're still daft for thinking the obviously little amount of time you've spent on a mud can tell you anything about something like a player's writing which would be harder to encounter considering Arm averages 70 players a night at peak.

Right, like I said. Put your money where your mouth is.

Just out of curiosity what have you written? Are you published?

You obviously don't know anything about the country I'm from or you wouldn't ask this. Probably 90% of publishing houses here do not publish fiction; because my average countryman reads 2 fiction books a year, according to studies. The few who do -- well, let's say you've to pay -them- to take you if you haven't had any books published before. I know someone who's done it -- it cost her 5000 dollars, and she didn't get half of it back from her sales commissions. (She wasn't a good writer too, honestly, just a really rich kid) Other countries don't import our books, so the market is small and stagnant. Sorry, but I'm not gonna spend 5000 dollars that I may or may not make back... just 'for fun'.

I do contribute to several online ezines, and freelance for a few local newspapers and magazines. That actually -makes- money to help with my student budget, instead of being a drain on finances. One day when I've emigrated perhaps I'll consider trying to get published.

And for the last fscking time, I did -not- say Arm had NO good writers. Honestly, if the first ten or so people you interact with at various times aren't good writers, chances are that the majority aren't. Yes, there may be clans where the good writers have all flocked together -- I have -never- denied this. There's probably some RP-intense clan on some H&S MUD where they have stellar RP, too -- does that mean that you can't say H&S's don't have good RP in general??

As for the MUSHes I've played, frankly, on your 2nd or 3rd RP scene you will bump into a good writer, most of the time. If I RPed with 10 people on a MUSH and all of them constantly put forth 2 word emotes, I would say the average writing quality there is poor, as well.

You're just getting your panties in a rut because people have -dared- to say something bad about -your- favourite genre, which must be -perfect-. Guess I should get my panties all in a rut and take it personally when people say that British people speak better English than Asians in general, too, even though those same people said that they thought Asians were generally good at math.

[misao]

Originally Posted by Nymeria If we assume something close to prime time (that is, when there are Americans awake and about, because that will matter a lot on a smaller MUSH), I would say its pretty unusual to spend 5-6 hours looking for roleplay ... unless by looking for roleplay you mean wandering the grid looking for someone to bump into without using any commands to see where people actually are (like +where). That's just not how Blood of Dragons, or many other MUSHes, are setup to function.

He probably wandered around looking for mobs to kill, found none, -50 points. Then wandered around trying to look for people without 'where' and without bothering to 'tell' someone to ask if they'd like to RP (because it's not IC and we must be IC at all times othwerwise we're not playing an RPG, duuhh! :rolls eyes. Couldn't find anyone and concluded that there was NO (as opposed to little) RP to be found.

Originally Posted by Jazuela I don't know how long ago it was or the circumstances in which you tried Armageddon, Misao. But last I recall, most of the times when you'd come across your example, is when you come across a new player who doesn't know how to use the emote system yet. In Armageddon, there is a detailed and sometimes complex dynamic emoting system - where the above is -more likely- to look like this: Kicking out a chair from under the bar beside her, the female dwarf says to you, in southern-accented sirihish, "Have a seat, tell me how's the storm been? I haven't been out all week." The female dwarf takes a sip from her chipped ceramic mug, then licks her lips free of the froth. And... All this is done with special symbols, so that it is dynamic. That means, the other people in the bar see... Kicking out a chair from under the bar beside her, the female dwarf says to the red-headed man, in sirihish, "Have a seat...blah blah blah..." Note that the if everyone is from the south except the red-headed man, then everyone will see "sirihish" - they won't see a special accent because to a southerner, southern-accented sirihish isn't an accent at all. It's normal. And, if it's an elf looking on, who doesn't speak sirihish at all, the elf would see what the dwarf is doing, but it'd end up like this: ...the female dwarf says to the red-headed man, in an unknown language, "Mufr e peyk, sarg pl blah blah blah etc."

This would be swell! It doesn't matter if they don't know how to use the complex targetting system; it took me a while to learn that on several MUDs as well. But surely one can still input detail without it?

Most mushes are -primarily- storytelling, with very little adventuring or coded physical conflict resolution (aka a combat system), if any. Some RP muds are -primarily- adventuring, with no storytelling, and some are just PK and mob-killing with no adventuring or storytelling. But most..are a combination. I think that's really the main difference between the average mush and the average mud, aside from the code itself. In summary, I feel the main difference is in the emphasis.

I agree with this. In addition to the code-based thing, I too feel that this is a major difference between the average MUD and MUSH. I love the focus on storytelling that MUSHes have; I just wish people would come out in the open more (like in MUDs) instead of hiding around waiting for tells. I do understand that that is part of MUSH culture, but it's nice to dream!

[Nymeria]

Originally Posted by misao I just wish people would come out in the open more (like in MUDs) instead of hiding around waiting for tells. I do understand that that is part of MUSH culture, but it's nice to dream!

I can't disagree with this. One of the flaws that tend to plague most MUSHes is that people more heavily favour roleplaying with established roleplay partners. It can be a question of people being too elitist or too picky, and also preferring the comfortable and known to the unknown.

It can also be a result of MUSH roleplay being more focused on character relationships rather than actions, so people preferring having their daily life roleplay with characters that their character has an established connection to. On the other hand, you often see much bigger crowds at public scenes. We've had quite a few tourneys with 15+ people in a room...which admittedly can get just a little hard to follow.

In that sense, I guess it mirrors real life. If you are going to be casually social, you will want to be with your friends, you won't just strike up a conversation with a stranger. On the other hand, you will interact more readily with strangers at a big party.

MUDs, on the other hand, would seem to offer more opportunities for people to get together as a group and perform a specific activity, such as a going on a raid together. That gives the group a focus which isn't easily simulated on most MUSHes because there aren't battles to be fought every day. MUSHing definitely isn't the form for regular, grand adventures.

[misao]

I totally agree with this. During my MUSH days (I seem to have MUD-phases and MUSH-phases, heh) I too made the mistake of being elitist and simply not bothering about people whose style of prose I didn't enjoy. In fact, those people tended to be the most proactive ones who always hung around in public areas and initiated RP (because they had to, I guess; they were mostly one-liners, had weird grammar, or took forever to pose), so, to avoid them, I too began to just hide in my room and answer tells selectively. A part of me wished that it didn't have to be that way, though.

[jackal59mo2]

Originally Posted by Nymeria I can't disagree with this. One of the flaws that tend to plague most MUSHes is that people more heavily favour roleplaying with established roleplay partners. It can be a question of people being too elitist or too picky, and also preferring the comfortable and known to the unknown. It can also be a result of MUSH roleplay being more focused on character relationships rather than actions, so people preferring having their daily life roleplay with characters that their character has an established connection to. On the other hand, you often see much bigger crowds at public scenes. We've had quite a few tourneys with 15+ people in a room...which admittedly can get just a little hard to follow. In that sense, I guess it mirrors real life. If you are going to be casually social, you will want to be with your friends, you won't just strike up a conversation with a stranger. On the other hand, you will interact more readily with strangers at a big party.

Quite honestly, I read the above as a well-intentioned excuse for rudeness. There is no reason why players on any game should ignore other players just because they are unfamiliar (as opposed to ignoring them because they've proven themselves to be jerks). I've played on enough games that were like this:

Pub: Me with New Character says, "Hi, everyone."
Pub: Everyone else continues talking to each other, generally exchanging in-jokes and chatting about what they are thinking about doing with their characters.
Pub: Me, after about five minutes, joins the conversation with a comment.
Pub: Someone snarks in response, and the conversation continues.
Pub: Me, after about five me minutes, "This bbpost says that Cool Thing is happening. Does anyone want to RP around that?"
Pub: Everyone else falls silent, and then the conversation picks up again.

I've also played games where I've asked to join a public scene and been welcomed, and yet when I arrive at that place on the grid I can't get anyone to do a set for me without paging several people and can't get anyone to acknowledge that my character is present after I pose him in. In fact, one of the places I clearly remembering that happen was about two years ago on Blood of Dragons.

I'm not incompetent, nor do I play uninteresting characters. I do, however, have no patience for people who have open CG games in theory but private games in practice. That's not part of "being a MUSH" - that's part of being rude.

[Nymeria]

Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 Quite honestly, I read the above as a well-intentioned excuse for rudeness. There is no reason why players on any game should ignore other players just because they are unfamiliar (as opposed to ignoring them because they've proven themselves to be jerks). I've played on enough games that were like this:

Well ... I can think of one very good reason: if you have 2-3 hours to roleplay in a day, you might be very selective in who you roleplay with. Is that good for the game? Or for new players? No, but when it comes to a hobby, people tend to be selfish. Its human nature. You want to maximize your own fun. It may not be good for your fun in the long term, but how many players think like that?

I've also played games where I've asked to join a public scene and been welcomed, and yet when I arrive at that place on the grid I can't get anyone to do a set for me without paging several people and can't get anyone to acknowledge that my character is present after I pose him in. In fact, one of the places I clearly remembering that happen was about two years ago on Blood of Dragons.

Sure, that happens. I would say it happens on most MUSHes. I would even say it may happen a little more often on Blood of Dragons than some other MUSHes because we have a large percentage of players who come from a MUSH culture that is of the "swim or sink" variety and new players are expected to be very proactive.

Its something we've tried to work on, but old habits die hard.

[misao]

Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 Quite honestly, I read the above as a well-intentioned excuse for rudeness. There is no reason why players on any game should ignore other players just because they are unfamiliar (as opposed to ignoring them because they've proven themselves to be jerks). I've played on enough games that were like this: Pub: Me with New Character says, "Hi, everyone." Pub: Everyone else continues talking to each other, generally exchanging in-jokes and chatting about what they are thinking about doing with their characters. Pub: Me, after about five minutes, joins the conversation with a comment. Pub: Someone snarks in response, and the conversation continues. Pub: Me, after about five me minutes, "This bbpost says that Cool Thing is happening. Does anyone want to RP around that?" Pub: Everyone else falls silent, and then the conversation picks up again. I've also played games where I've asked to join a public scene and been welcomed, and yet when I arrive at that place on the grid I can't get anyone to do a set for me without paging several people and can't get anyone to acknowledge that my character is present after I pose him in. In fact, one of the places I clearly remembering that happen was about two years ago on Blood of Dragons. I'm not incompetent, nor do I play uninteresting characters. I do, however, have no patience for people who have open CG games in theory but private games in practice. That's not part of "being a MUSH" - that's part of being rude.

I think what Nymeria was talking about was something slightly different. But yes, this is a huge problem on both MUDs and MUSHes that I've played. Frankly, there are two sides to the story, though. As an example, there was a new player on TI that I was very eager to help. So, when I saw that she and a few others were in a public location, I hastened my butt there. Unfortunately, she takes 15 minutes to reply to ANYTHING, and just idled out after a while. Well, maybe she was busy, but if she was too busy to pose more often than once every 15 minutes, perhaps she shouldn't be RPing?

Tried again with another alt some other time. Same problem. Third time, the same.

Now, whenever she poses? Honestly, I tend to ignore it most of the time. There's just no danged use responding when she's only gonna pose again after the next 10 poses or so. Things would've changed too much by then and she'd only be responding to the most recent events so why bother?

I do agree that some people are just too caught up in elitism that they don't even bother with -anyone- whom they don't know. That is rather saddening, although frankly I've not met very many players like that.

[jackal59mo2]

Understand, I strongly prefer playing on MUSH/MUX-based games; the best RP I've ever been involved in was on Elendor. But when games post promotions in which they are almost begging for new players, and at the same time they excuse those who ignore new players because being rude is the "culture" of the game, then you have to wonder what game is actually being played. Are new players just there to be an audience for the cool kids who have already arrived?

This whole discussion is making me rethink the advantages of MUDs. At least there the code interacts.

[Orrin]

Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 This whole discussion is making me rethink the advantages of MUDs. At least there the code interacts.

One feature of some MUDs that can have a bearing on how new players are treated are warfare or faction conflict systems. On such games new players can be a valuable resource within the ongoing faction conflict, rather than simply an interruption or annoyance. This doesn't speak to the quality of the roleplay or interaction of course, but there is a definite incentive there for other players to take the time to help those new to the game.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 Understand, I strongly prefer playing on MUSH/MUX-based games; the best RP I've ever been involved in was on Elendor. But when games post promotions in which they are almost begging for new players, and at the same time they excuse those who ignore new players because being rude is the "culture" of the game, then you have to wonder what game is actually being played. Are new players just there to be an audience for the cool kids who have already arrived?

I'd suggest it's a bit of "we want an audience so we can show off our poses" and "we want extras in the background to fill in roles that are beneath us". I've logged into many a MUSH and the prevailing attitude has been that if you're not a member of their little clique then you can kiss any RP good-bye. In many, RP seems to be pre-arranged for certain times between the members of the clique and if you happen to log in during any of the other 20+ hours of the day, you're S.O.L. as many such games are vacant. If you log in at the right time, you can often expect to be ignored unless you're in the clique. I have often wondered why these games advertise and the "audience" and "extras" seem to be the two reasons.

Something which hasn't been my experience but which has been the common experience of a friend of mine is that in some setting of MUSH (WoD), you get the same group of players who go from game to game playing the exact same characters doing the exact same things. As soon as a new game opens, they create their exact same character and immediately begin plotting the same plot they had the last time. They've "researched" (I use that term loosely since the research is sometimes based on inaccurate stereotypes and employed incorrectly rather than via a plausible method) what they want to know to try and achieve their goals. Their characters are built around those goals and those goals are all they focus on and RP in pursuit of achieving. Same character, same goals, same methods, same reactions and same RP (maybe new poses). The clique goes through their routine and the MUSH closes down having ended in the same outcome over and over again with only the GM's dice determining which of the same set of possible outcomes succeeds.

I noticed this when he would complain about the RP he was seeing in MUSH after MUSH in this setting. Mind you, his particular experience may be confined to this setting alone as I've never noticed it in the past when I'd try out MUSH (as I said, I typically couldn't get into the clique in the first place, he's learned tricks of character design that get him noticed inevitably because each of the character types played over and over will seek out the same types of outsider characters time and time again). He's explained it to me many a time and there's a distinct strategy to it but it's not RP, it's a form-letter. That said, he also says that when you do find a good clique of players and you know the strategy, you can find some excellent RP, though this RP is predictable as it follows the same pattern. Sometimes I'm not sure why he puts himself through MUSH after MUSH if they all end the same way: one of several variations based on which strategy reaches its goals first, then him complaining to me on AIM about how they always do the same thing and finally me typing "LOL Then why do you keep playing them?"

:-D

Jason

[Nymeria]

Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 Understand, I strongly prefer playing on MUSH/MUX-based games; the best RP I've ever been involved in was on Elendor. But when games post promotions in which they are almost begging for new players, and at the same time they excuse those who ignore new players because being rude is the "culture" of the game, then you have to wonder what game is actually being played. Are new players just there to be an audience for the cool kids who have already arrived?

Why is that people never can seem to figure out the difference between excuses and explanations?

I also don't agree that it is purposefully rude in 95% of cases when someone fails to be helpful enough. A lot of people who have MUSHed for a good while are vary of new players, because you do get a lot of people showing up who ignore efforts to include them. It goes both ways, its not easy starting out and its not easy working with new players. We get a fair number of newbies who people make an effort to work with and who make no effort in turn.

Originally Posted by prof1515 I'd suggest it's a bit of "we want an audience so we can show off our poses" and "we want extras in the background to fill in roles that are beneath us". I've logged into many a MUSH and the prevailing attitude has been that if you're not a member of their little clique then you can kiss any RP good-bye. In many, RP seems to be pre-arranged for certain times between the members of the clique and if you happen to log in during any of the other 20+ hours of the day, you're S.O.L. as many such games are vacant. If you log in at the right time, you can often expect to be ignored unless you're in the clique. I have often wondered why these games advertise and the "audience" and "extras" seem to be the two reasons.

Or maybe it is that a lot of people who join up on a game don't make any effort to find out what's going, to talk to people OOCly, and get a sense of the game and the players? If you show up at a party with a group of people you've never met, do you really expect them to do the whole work of bringing you into the group?

That said, there are absolutely elitist cliques on MUSHes. But I also think there are other circumstances that may look similar but in fact just have its roots in insecurities on both sides.

And scenes being pre-arranged for specific times? Yes, sure, that's pretty common. If you have a small or smallish playerbase, it kind of makes sense. However, they should be posted up as common knowledge.

The advertising comments seem to suggest that somehow the admin are supposed to control or at least dictate how the players interact with new players. Beyond having rules about conduct towards any player, new or old, I would never dream of insisting that someone has to roleplay with another player. That is a very good way of killing someone's interest. That said, I am all for encouraging people to do so when they feel up to it. I am also all for encouraging new players to speak to the admin if they need any help, and in 9 out of 10 cases that never happens.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Delerak You're an idiot. I would be resorting to ad hominem if it weren't true.

Originally Posted by misao Edit: I've received a kind reminder from a fellow forumer and have removed my response to this. If you wish to continue slinging baseless insults at me, that's your call.

Misao, remember when I told you that most people here have Delerak on ignore and that doing so makes the TMS forums a much more pleasant place?

I generally try to give good advice. Especially to nice people like you.

[Newworlds]

I enjoyed the time on MUSHes when I played them. It is a good atmosphere for enjoyable storyline style roleplay. I never got the elitist attitude Prof1515 is talking about, perhaps that is more common now? What I find more often now is everyone trying to put down other styles of game play. I believe each genre and game style has its advantages and disadvantages and the choice to accept or deny them is up to the player.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I enjoyed the time on MUSHes when I played them. It is a good atmosphere for enjoyable storyline style roleplay. I never got the elitist attitude Prof1515 is talking about, perhaps that is more common now?

I think the only elitism we are seeing is from the ARPI folks here. They don't seem to like the idea of there being another subset of MUDs that might have even more intensive roleplay than they do. That's why you only see certain people trying to rip on MUSHes in this thread.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Nymeria And scenes being pre-arranged for specific times? Yes, sure, that's pretty common. If you have a small or smallish playerbase, it kind of makes sense. However, they should be posted up as common knowledge.

Herein lies the problem for me. I don't want to go OOC to setup specific times to roleplay. When I login I expect people to be on and roleplaying, not idling. Idling is a part of hack and slash muds, it shouldn't be freely allowed on a roleplay enforced game. Just my opinion mainly because it's not realistic. If you idle on a true roleplay mud, especially in certain dangerous areas of the game, you will probably end up with a dead character. Permanently dead.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Threshold I think the only elitism we are seeing is from the ARPI folks here. They don't seem to like the idea of there being another subset of MUDs that might have even more intensive roleplay than they do. That's why you only see certain people trying to rip on MUSHes in this thread.

There's no "rip" going on for me. I'm just speaking my personal experience. I have a certain set of guidelines I follow before playing a game at all, especially when Roleplay is involved. When I login to a mud and see a leveling guide like on Threshold, thing's are going to go downhill very fast. Also the character generation isn't conducive of roleplaying at all, with the explosion of colors on the screen and the multitude of numbers and metagaming systems you have to wade through.

Misao has very similar requirements to my own enjoyment of roleplay he just doesn't see that true RPI's hold the features he's seeking, obviously. You can't login to ANY mud/mush/MU* and instantly get gratified with good writing and roleplay. You have to find your niche on that game because many games cater to many different types of people and roleplay. Unfortunately MUSHes have no players and use a system of "meet and greets" instead of a In-character world frame 24/7 like an RPI does.

[misao]

Originally Posted by Delerak Misao has very similar requirements to my own enjoyment of roleplay he just doesn't see that true RPI's hold the features he's seeking, obviously. You can't login to ANY mud/mush/MU* and instantly get gratified with good writing and roleplay. You have to find your niche on that game because many games cater to many different types of people and roleplay. Unfortunately MUSHes have no players and use a system of "meet and greets" instead of a In-character world frame 24/7 like an RPI does.

No, I don't have similar requirements as you. I don't care about realism, frankly. I know spending 30 minutes to get from one area to another is realistic but I like the teleport command. Adding 'some time later, they arrived at xxx' into a pose suffices for me. I know paging and tells are OOC but I don't care, as long as there are distinct lines drawn between OOC and IC. And I don't think that roleplay needs to be as realistic as possible to be considered /roleplay/; nor do I fancy rebuilding my character with all its history, relationships and reputations from scratch because an RL emergency happened to come up or my connection died. You can have all those requirements for RPI if you want; I don't really care about them, nor do I have the knowledge and experience to comment on RPIs. However, nobody ever claimed that MUSHes should be included in the RPI genre. 'Realism' is a boon for some and a bane to others, and a subjective term all the same.

[Delerak]

With the requirements you list, you'll never be satisfied with MUSH. But you sure can keep looking.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by Threshold I think the only elitism we are seeing is from the ARPI (sic) folks here. They don't seem to like the idea of there being another subset of MUDs that might have even more intensive roleplay than they do. That's why you only see certain people trying to rip on MUSHes in this thread.

"Intensive roleplay" is subjective. As for the flame-bait, read the OP's first post. They asked that the RPI disagreements be left out of this thread.

Delerak, although it doesn't appear misao is very well-versed on RPIs, what they have shown preference for indicates that their tastes seem to favor MUSHes, MOO or MUX type games and thus the point is moot. Thus it really doesn't seem to warrant suggesting or arguing for misao to try a RPI.

It's also not necessary for the same flame-baiters to try and start arguments over it again and again.

I'd also recommend misao or anyone else not ignore people since I have yet to see any good that becomes of this. Nearly everyone at some time or another posts something informational and of some value, even if it's only a post which demonstrates their ignorance (since that gives you a barometer to measure the quality of the information they're providing in similar discussion), and ignoring an individual only serves to limit your knowledge. As many of the arguments on TMS stem from ignorance coupled with an overblown emphasis on opinion, why contribute to the problem?

Later,

Jason

[Newworlds]

Couple of things.

Tells (telepathy in NWA) is not OOC it is an ability of every sentient being in this world and is completely IC. I know on many games this is a completely ooc function.

Ignoring people on TMS. I believe strongly that you should ignore people that the Sys Op hasn't taken time or inclination to remove or ban. There are people on TMS that do not add to the collective progress of Text MUDs in general. They are a virus to an otherwise healthy group. They weaken our cause (whether intentionally or not) and sometimes I think they do it on purpose or just for kicks, either way it is reprehensible. Ignore is a good feature and should be used when needed.