Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Tavern of the Blue Hand
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-12-2009, 02:26 PM   #41
MudMann
Member
 
MudMann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
MudMann will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Haha. Kavir just owned Threshold. How delightfully satisfying.

I'm guessing Aristotle is Threshold?
I have not looked at Thresholds forums for some time... but "ouch!" comes to mind. I didnt know there were rules for TMS.. I dont see any harm in rewarding a good position in the charts.. it IS cause for celebration after all.. but not to sure about the multiple ip thing
MudMann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 02:53 PM   #42
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

As soon as we found out about the no mud-wide rewards, we ended any such promotions. Milawe and I both apologized to Lasher in email. Since this is now public, we also apologize to other mudders for our mistake.

For YEARS, the rule was only that you couldn't reward specific people, but mud-wide rewards were fine. Because even people who didn't vote would still benefit.

I can't help but wonder why Kavir posted here instead of PMing/emailing me first to ask if I misunderstood the rule, or PMing/emailing Lasher so he could deal with it. If he had, he'd know that it had already been dealt with days prior.

As soon as someone posted the link to the updated rule on page 1, I talked to Lasher in email and had already changed our policies to comply with the rules. So the issue was already addressed and fixed.

The linked posts were on a PUBLIC forum available to anyone - even non-players. If we had been trying to do something sneaky, we definitely would not have posted it there. I also posted on the first page of this thread that I thought the rule was against specific player rewards, not mud-wide rewards. So it is pretty obvious that this was a genuine ignorance of the updated rule.

It this where we are now as a "community?" Digging through mud's forums looking for things to attack them with? And not even bothering to ask them privately first what is up, so if it is a mistake they can correct it? Wow. That's a real shame.

Last edited by Threshold : 10-12-2009 at 03:41 PM.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:12 PM   #43
Delerak
Senior Member
 
Delerak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Name: Dan
Location: New York
Posts: 706
Delerak is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Delerak Send a message via AIM to Delerak Send a message via MSN to Delerak Send a message via Yahoo to Delerak
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Uh, actually it's a low moment for you Threshold. The fact that you disregard it and are playing the "ignorance" card shows what kind of character you have. Man up and admit it. Trying to act innocent just makes you look even more cheap than has already been proven.

I think it's hilarious that both threads are now deleted and gone. I'm glad I checked the dates on the October one. It's so blatantly obvious.

If you had any shred of integrity you'd have kept the threads up so others can decide for themselves, instead you quickly remove any and all evidence of wrong doing.
Delerak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:17 PM   #44
Milawe
Senior Member
 
Milawe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
Milawe has a spectacular aura aboutMilawe has a spectacular aura about
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

I'd rather not have a really big flame war about this, but it might be inevitable. We've already been in touch with Lasher about this, and I already made the statement to the mud that we were in violation of TMS's rules and we would not be celebrating over ranking status again. Anyone who plays Threshold knows that we easily have the number of players to support our ranking on TMS, but regardless, we were in violation of the rules.

We apologize to any other muds or administrators who are upset about this, but we honestly believed that you were not allowed to reward individual players but could encourage the mud as a whole. That was definitely allowed while Synozeer was running TMS. Either way, we have been informed. Our playerbase has been informed. And all posts annoucing mud-wide events in response to TMS ranking have been removed.

Also, we apologize to Lasher for diregard of the rules. I hope you know that we were not trying to disrespect the site or the participants of the site. Otherwise, we wouldn't have made it so public. (Not to mention Threshold outing us in this thread.)
Milawe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:23 PM   #45
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milawe View Post
Also, we apologize to Lasher for diregard of the rules. I hope you know that we were not trying to disrespect the site or the participants of the site. Otherwise, we wouldn't have made it so public. (Not to mention Threshold outing us in this thread.)
Just so people know, we both already apologized to Lasher in private email days before Kavir's post. As soon as someone posted the link to the updated rules on page 1, we were pretty shocked and surprised. So the issue was already dealt with completely, and Lasher understood and forgave us for our mistake.

We acted immediately to stop any such promotions and we informed our players.

As Milawe noted, the threads have been removed so new and old players will not read them and think those promotions are active.

Threshold has been around for over 13 years. We have been a part of mud community sites like TMS from the beginning. Rules have changed over time, and sometimes people make mistakes keeping updated. We made an honest mistake here, and we definitely feel bad and apologize for it. But I think it is pretty clear there was no deliberate cheating going on, since I outed MYSELF on page 1, and all of the posts referenced were in a PUBLIC forum.

I know that won't stop the haters from doing their thing, but I think most objective people will be able to see through to the truth.

Thanks,
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:27 PM   #46
Milawe
Senior Member
 
Milawe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
Milawe has a spectacular aura aboutMilawe has a spectacular aura about
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Uh, actually it's a low moment for you Threshold. The fact that you disregard it and are playing the "ignorance" card shows what kind of character you have. Man up and admit it. Trying to act innocent just makes you look even more cheap than has already been proven.
We're not trying to look innocent. Threshold outed himself on this thread. We've already discussed this with Lasher in PMs. We blatantly broke the rules and apologize for it. Our ONLY excuse is that we missed the change in the rules from when mud-wide events (rewards) were made unacceptable. Threshold has more than enough people to support the votes that we have. Regardless, we DID break the rules, and we apologize for this.

Most of our forums are PRIVATE. If we wanted to hide this, we would have just posted in one of our private sections. Then you guys wouldn't have been able to look at it at all. Seriously, there is no sneakiness involved. Plus, all the relevant parts are posted here on the thread, and they are accurately posted. Thus, you can make your judgments from here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
I think it's hilarious that both threads are now deleted and gone. I'm glad I checked the dates on the October one. It's so blatantly obvious.
We took them down when we told our players that we were in violation of TMS rules and that we would not be continuing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
If you had any shred of integrity you'd have kept the threads up so others can decide for themselves, instead you quickly remove any and all evidence of wrong doing.
The evidence of wrong doings are already in Lasher's mailbox as well as on this thread. Again, we apologize FOR the wrong-doing. It was done in ignorance and WILL be discontinued. I think we're a bit bewildered that we missed this somehow, and you are right in that I DO feel shame that we didn't know.

Unfortunately, we're absent from TMS for several months at a time over the course of several years. Missing the post stinks, and I wish that I HAD known. This makes us look like we were cheating. We're well aware of that. And it's a great disservice to our players who would have voted regardless of the events. This is definitely a situation where the admins messed up and the players might end up paying for it. Please excuse me if I'm a tad bit defensive. I can't help but be because I don't want our players paying for our mistakes.
Milawe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:38 PM   #47
MudMann
Member
 
MudMann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
MudMann will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Its good this was sorted, and Milawe has been very professional and suitably contradictory to put this issue with threshold to rest.

Regardless of intent KaVir did post up a violation of the rules and mentioning the potential axe to grind and that they are part of a group of haters is not going to stop this thread degenerating into a flame war.
MudMann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:44 PM   #48
Milawe
Senior Member
 
Milawe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
Milawe has a spectacular aura aboutMilawe has a spectacular aura about
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
Its good this was sorted, and Milawe has been very professional and suitably contradictory to put this issue with threshold to rest.
I'm hoping you mean conciliatory. I'm not trying to be contradictory at all, I promise, though I might be coming off that way.
Milawe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:49 PM   #49
Splork
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 36
Splork is on a distinguished road
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

I'm sure everyone appreciates the apology but in no way, shape or form does Kavir or anyone else owe Threshold a pm or email for THEM violating the voting rules here.

It really does appear that they outed themselves and thats a good thing but that initial response to Kavir's post doesn't sit very well with me and I'm sure I am not the only one who got that feeling...


Threshold has a huge following and it should, its a great mud. They will still rank as high as they are whether or not they give in game rewards for their voting.

Just my 2 cents...
Splork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 03:57 PM   #50
Milawe
Senior Member
 
Milawe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Home MUD: Stash
Home MUD: Archons of Avenshar
Posts: 653
Milawe has a spectacular aura aboutMilawe has a spectacular aura about
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splork View Post
I'm sure everyone appreciates the apology but in no way, shape or form does Kavir or anyone else owe Threshold a pm or email for THEM violating the voting rules here.
No, the TMS rules say to mail Lasher about any potential cheating, so they do NOT owe us any kind of PM or Email. Again, it's one of those things where I'm still boggled by how we missed that post clarifying the rules in 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splork View Post
It really does appear that they outed themselves and thats a good thing but that initial response to Kavir's post doesn't sit very well with me and I'm sure I am not the only one who got that feeling...
No one appreciates being kicked while they're down! We were already dealing with trying to rectify the situation and making amends to Lasher. Getting hit with it on the forums when we thought it was in the process of being resolved stinks but is probably a very necessary part of making amends. It's hard to ignore the obvious glee from some of the posters that we made a big mistake and are paying for it now. Still, that's part of the process, and I'll take the licks because I understand that people may very well feel slighted by us. Again, we apologize.
Milawe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 04:14 PM   #51
Delerak
Senior Member
 
Delerak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Name: Dan
Location: New York
Posts: 706
Delerak is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Delerak Send a message via AIM to Delerak Send a message via MSN to Delerak Send a message via Yahoo to Delerak
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Giving out the rewards doesn't really concern me as far as the voting sites go. That can happen without anybody knowing anyway. What is really harmful about giving out rewards is you claim to be a roleplay enforced mud and no true roleplayer would accept an IC reward for an OOC action. So it just degenerates your muds reputation of having a good clean IC atmosphere for roleplayers.
Delerak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 04:29 PM   #52
MudMann
Member
 
MudMann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
MudMann will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
Its good this was sorted, and Milawe has been very professional and suitably contradictory to put this issue with threshold to rest.

Regardless of intent KaVir did post up a violation of the rules and mentioning the potential axe to grind and that they are part of a group of haters is not going to stop this thread degenerating into a flame war.
Appologies for my English plummeting to new depths and my post ending up looking like a sarcastic stab.. I of course meant professional and contrite.. NOT contradictory
MudMann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 04:31 PM   #53
MudMann
Member
 
MudMann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
MudMann will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
Giving out the rewards doesn't really concern me as far as the voting sites go. That can happen without anybody knowing anyway. What is really harmful about giving out rewards is you claim to be a roleplay enforced mud and no true roleplayer would accept an IC reward for an OOC action. So it just degenerates your muds reputation of having a good clean IC atmosphere for roleplayers.
did... did... I ..can it possible... how...

NOOOOOOOO

my GOD, how did RPI / RPE come into THIS THREAD!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
MudMann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 04:50 PM   #54
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
I can't help but wonder why Kavir posted here instead of PMing/emailing me first to ask if I misunderstood the rule, or PMing/emailing Lasher so he could deal with it. If he had, he'd know that it had already been dealt with days prior.
In post #27 Lasher explicitly clarified that rewards for global events were not permitted, going on to give the example "nothing like "We will run double experience this weekend if we are in the top 5" etc." Ironically enough, that was the exact reward you'd offered less than a week earlier (and indeed for the previous few months).

At that point you knew the rules, and you knew you were breaking them (and let's not even get into your "If you have access to additional computers or IPs or whatever, that is great" comment). Most people in your position would keep a low profile and quickly remove the reward offers. If they were feeling particularly honest they might even contact Lasher and explain their mistake. Your response? Post #29, you accused other top 10 muds of cheating:

"Lasher, since you are involved in the thread, what is the status on busting some of these 15-20 people muds that are clearly cheating to be in the top 5 or top 10?"

Two days after your accusation, you posted another reply to your double XP reward thread, reminding people yet again to keep on voting. Another three days later (today) and there was still no sign of you removing the rewards.

Your recent posts seem to imply that you were the one who contacted Lasher, but in fact the only reason he knew you were cheating is that I contacted him - and the only reason I didn't post this "days ago" is because I felt you deserved the chance to stop offering rewards, as you'd promised Lasher you would. I should have known better.

I would also like to respond to your comment in the negative vote you just gave me:

"You really are a disgusting asshole. How about a PM first? How about asking Lasher? No, you have to go for a public slam. Your negativity is POISON for the mud community."

It is people like you who are poison. You cheat the rankings, while hurling unfounded accusations at the muds who have earned their rank fair and square. It would have reflected much better on if you'd dealt with this yourself, privately, when I gave you the chance. But you clearly weren't willing to do so.

The voting rules are there for the good of the community. They only work if everyone follows them.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 05:28 PM   #55
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

So if we remove the posts, we have no integrity. If we DON'T remove the posts, we have no integrity. Wow. Its tough to win, huh?

We apologized directly to Lasher for not knowing about the rules change. We did that BEFORE your post here. Lasher owns this site, so we felt that was the right person to go to. It is OBVIOUS that we had no idea about the rules update since I outed myself on page 1 of this thread, and the promotions were PUBLIC posts on Threshold's forum. No attempt to imply otherwise will hold water.

We have also apologized in this thread multiple times now. We have also removed the threads in question and explained our error to our own players. It was an honest mistake. We were operating under the old rules which allowed mud-wide rewards but not personalized rewards for people who definitely voted. People make mistakes. We made one. We owned up to it, apologized to everyone involved, and made the appropriate changes.

That's not enough apparently. What is enough? When is enough enough for you, Kavir? It appears to me that once you don't like someone, NOTHING is ever enough.

As for your attempts to make this personal, I'm not going down that road. You may continue to do so if it makes you feel better.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 05:44 PM   #56
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
So if we remove the posts, we have no integrity. If we DON'T remove the posts, we have no integrity. Wow. Its tough to win, huh?
If you had removed the posts offering the rewards, then nobody would have known other than you, me, Lasher and Icculus (as a TMC auditor it was my responsibility to report that you were cheating on the TMC rankings as well). The whole thing could have been quietly swept aside as a mistake.

But you left the voting reward threads for five days after you'd been made aware of the rules, and actually continued reminding people to vote on them - you continued asking your players to vote, leaving them under the impression that they would be rewarded for it. That's not a mistake, that's an intentional flaunting of the rules, and an insult to other muds on the TMS rankings - muds you publically accused of cheating, despite having absolutely no evidence of them doing so.
KaVir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 06:39 PM   #57
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,240
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
But you left the voting reward threads for five days after you'd been made aware of the rules, and actually continued reminding people to vote on them - you continued asking your players to vote, leaving them under the impression that they would be rewarded for it. That's not a mistake, that's an intentional flaunting of the rules
Here is what happened. You can choose to believe me or not. That's up to you.

1) Page 1 of this thread: I posted that mud wide rewards are ok, just not personal rewards. I was wrong. Obviously I would not have posted that if I thought we were doing something sneaky.

2) Lasher sent me an email that someone reported us for having a double XP promotion. I replied back that yes, we used to do that, before someone linked to Lasher's 2007 post on page 1. We apologized to him for our mistake. We told him we had already ended all such promotions. We informed our players about this online. At this point, we thought what was reported to Lasher was our IN GAME announcements about double xp for voting position. Lasher accepted our apologies and believed that we had no intent to break the rules.

3) Today, I got an email from Adam of TMC that actually included the email someone sent reporting us (with email address removed). That report showed links to 3 forum posts from the last few months. As soon as we realized those forum posts were the problem, we deleted them. We then made a new post, saying we would no longer have any mud promotions for vote position. We posted this on our public forums, private forums, in game boards, and in game channels.

4) A couple hours later, I saw the post here be Kavir for the first time. Milawe and I have BOTH apologized to the mud community for our mistake. It was an HONEST mistake. Lasher already accepted our apology and believed that it was an honest mistake.

5) You can insist that we were deliberately cheating if you want. But if we were deliberately cheating, I wouldn't have made those posts on our PUBLIC forums, and I wouldn't have said on page 1 of this thread that mud-wide rewards were ok. The difference between cheating and a mistake is intent. It is pretty clear we had no intent to cheat. As the months go forward, I think you will see that our vote performance will be pretty much the same with or without those promotions. They were a fun thing that I am sad are gone, but I am sad for our players - not because of the effect on vote totals.

6) I apologize for my rude private message. I am ashamed of it. I should not have said such things even in a private message.

Last edited by Threshold : 10-12-2009 at 06:49 PM.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 06:51 PM   #58
Rosuav
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2
Rosuav is on a distinguished road
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Please can this thread end? There is only one person now who could post something of true value: Lasher. If he does not wish to weigh in, then there is no point arguing back and forth about whether or not Threshold has done enough to atone for the error, whether it was blatant rules-ignoring, etc, etc, etc. Let's not have unnecessary flame wars, please!

Thanks!
Rosuav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 07:00 PM   #59
MudMann
Member
 
MudMann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Europe
Home MUD: Primordiax
Home MUD: Threshold
Posts: 178
MudMann will become famous soon enough
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosuav View Post
Please can this thread end? There is only one person now who could post something of true value: Lasher. If he does not wish to weigh in, then there is no point arguing back and forth about whether or not Threshold has done enough to atone for the error, whether it was blatant rules-ignoring, etc, etc, etc. Let's not have unnecessary flame wars, please!

Thanks!
I have to agree that this whole thread cannot help muds, tms, or certain posters in any way shape or form. Points have be raised, fingers waggled, doubts cast, appologies made blah blah.

Everyone is now a lot wiser as to the rules... and now its time for bed, night all!
MudMann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 11:53 PM   #60
DonathinFrye
Senior Member
 
DonathinFrye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Name: Donathin Frye
Location: Columbus, OH
Home MUD: Optional Realities
Home MUD: Atonement RPI
Home MUD: Project Redshift
Posts: 510
DonathinFrye is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to DonathinFrye
Re: Lets Talk about Voting - Shall we?

Hopefully, this thread serves at least as encouragement to MUDs who may be stretching the limitations of the voting rules too far to make some changes in an effort to comply with fairness. I think that that is a good thing - especially for any MUDs that may be just those few steps away from breaking into the Top (Insert#) to get some publicity and perhaps a boost to a low (bot loyal) playerbase.

I think that everyone can agree that that is in the best interest of the community as a whole. Matt would probably disagree, but Matt doesn't post here much anymore.
DonathinFrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014