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Old 11-06-2009, 03:40 AM   #1
Althi
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Looking For a complex Mud

I am looking for a complex mud with the following features.

the potential to play the divide and conquer strategy, financing both sides in a large conflict and profiting from the debt.
Basically I want lots of conspiracy and intrigue.

the potential to affect the game in a big way such as by unleashing a spreading zombie plague on the entire game server.

player run economy with player controlled currencies.

the potential to create a central bank with the power to regulate banking to a great degree, and print money.

politics and lobbying.

deep crafting system.

deep economy.

lots of covert actions such as the potential to cause revolts in kingdoms.

the ability to establish territory.

player run banks.

businesses such as investing, and real estate.

stocks in businesses.

the ability for player run governments to loan to other governments, and finance projects.

permedeath, or death with heavy penalty.

player run lawmaking.

items that increase stats temporarily but decrease stats in the long term. ability to craft said items.

the ability to destroy buildings, including businesses.

Assassination

a way to win

New Edit: I am basically looking for a game with the theme of political corruption - perhaps generated by established wealth combined with such an ambition - versus the people. Both the corrupt politics side, and the people side done by player characters.

Last edited by Althi : 11-12-2009 at 01:43 AM. Reason: To Better Reflect What I am Looking for
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:38 AM   #2
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

It sounds more like you're looking to work in an IMM (GM) position rather than a player position. I mean, think about it. If players could destroy buildings, then they would. And then *someone* would need to rewrite all those rooms to reflect that the buildings are destroyed. If players could run the banks, chances are, they already do, and they don't need you to show up and create another one. If currency wasn't standardized, it would have no value at all, or its value would fluctuate SO wildly, that you'd need economists to let everyone know what it's worth this day, vs. tomorrow. I'm guessing the local economist PC would very quickly tire of having to add yet another "currency-creator PC"'s currency to his list of "currency I have to figure out for today." He'd spend all his login time doing nothing but numbercrunching. If his player is a CPA in real life, maybe he'll consider that fun. Personally I'd rather have a tooth drilled.

Remember if you want the opportunity to create a central bank, it means you want a game that doesn't already have one. That means a game that is -probably- still in development, and that also means that most of the rest of the things you want, would not have been implemented yet. That's why I suggest trying to get into a game as an IMM/GM. As someone who helps develop the game from the code side, you get to do all that stuff. You get to write room descriptions, send in mobs to tear down buildings, create NPCs who can run shops and banks, create currency for the players, etc. etc.

Try one of the many games that are still in development - go in as a player for awhile, prove yourself to be a contributing member of their playerbase, then ask if you could be on staff. That'd be my recommendation.
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:30 PM   #3
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

That's an easy one! It's called business and politics in the real world! I know not helping, but couldn't resist and it's really the best thign I cna think of for that. I know of no game that is that in depth. It'd be more trouble than it is worth to code really.
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:54 PM   #4
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

I know that TSOY will meet some of that depth but there's no chance a single person could wreak the kind of havoc you're describing. Can't see any game creating any depth at all either allowing or even finding a way to allow a player to do so. The kind of complexity you're talking about is the result of a economic and technologically advanced society and the greater the complexity the less the ability or likelihood that a single person can f*ck the whole thing up at least in the manner you're talking about.

Even if it were possible, and I don't believe it is (for one thing, such an economic system couldn't be "player run" without a massive playerbase but that's another discussion altogether), my suggestion would be that you start your own game, put in all the effort needed to create the kind of economic infrastructure and function you're talking about, then see if you're willing to let a player just come in and screw it all up and come back here and tell us all about it.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:22 PM   #5
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

to clarify, some of the stuff I described was with teamwork in mind. for example the covert action, and the central bank would be made possible to run by working with like minded individuals. The divide & conquer idea would require tricking or infiltrating other governments, which would most likely require teamwork in one form or another.

The zombie plague idea would be possible but it would be very difficult and/or time consuming to achieve perhaps making teamwork a necessity.

I am starting to think maybe I should just make my own game and see if any of this is practical lol.
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:54 PM   #6
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

God Wars 2 maybe.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:20 PM   #7
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

Our game has a deep crafting system, and a very active quest department, that with the help of SEVERAL other players, and a crap-ton of work, you could probably impact many of the aspects of the game. That's because we have a very active quest department that runs pretty intuitive storylines and whatnot.

However, banks will never be player-run, and multiple currencies will simply never happen.

We have player-run/owned shops, though they take massive amounts of time/work to buy and stock.

Most of what you mentioned in that first note though, seems unrealistic to expect from a game, for the reasons already stated by others. It sorta sounds like you expect to walk in, get situated, and reek absolute havok on the financial/political scene of a game... which, I'm not sure anybody would -want- a new player to come in aiming to do that.

The zombie plague thing sounds like something that'd have to be imm-run. In the past, we've had situations where a clan on the game used to start massive city-wide plagues, but it grew problematic, as they did spread through large sections of the game, and cause harm to lowbie players, thus discouraging them from playing. Which is bad, generally.

If you feel like checking out a game though, you can try us out. As a merchant, specifically in clan Artisan, you could probably acchieve some of your goals, and at the bare minimum, kill a few hundred hours reaching a few of your goals before you got bored. Might even find a home. Up to you.

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Old 11-06-2009, 06:28 PM   #8
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
God Wars 2 maybe.
It's complex, but not in the areas the OP is interested in - the only feature it's got from his list is the ability to destroy buildings.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:21 PM   #9
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

The OP might want to look at browser-based games, there are many politicial sims and other kinds that may fit the bill. I don't have a good one to recommend but there are a ton of them out there.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:38 PM   #10
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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Originally Posted by Ide View Post
The OP might want to look at browser-based games, there are many politicial sims and other kinds that may fit the bill. I don't have a good one to recommend but there are a ton of them out there.
I am checking the recommendation out right now. I may have found some leads.

A feature I would like to add to my search for a mud is I that I think what I am looking for is a mud where you actually can win, combined with great depth especially in the economy.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:39 PM   #11
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

I'm curious about the addition of the last criteria to your list. It seems to conflict with your other requirement of a complex, effective, player-run economy.

To have an economy, you have to have a constant, closed system. Death of an economic owner or participant is ok, because it just returns the items to the economy, removes a consumer as well as a producer (which over many deaths will tend to average out).

But the idea of "winning" would, in my mind, mean the removal of the person "winning" without them giving up anything. So you still remove a producer and a consumer, but all that they have gained during that time (which conceivably would be quite a bit in order to "win"), would suddenly be removed from the system. So every person that wins wreaks the system further.

After writing it, it doesn't sound as economically deadly as I first imagined but.. still holds true in my mind. Take for example a major player in OPEC. If the company, all of it's employees, all of it's materials and capital both liquid and non-liquid, as well as all of it's stakes in resources (meaning the resources as well since... if they "won" why do they have to return everything to the "pool"?) suddenly pulled out, imagine what that would do to our economic situation.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:12 AM   #12
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca View Post
I'm curious about the addition of the last criteria to your list. It seems to conflict with your other requirement of a complex, effective, player-run economy.

To have an economy, you have to have a constant, closed system. Death of an economic owner or participant is ok, because it just returns the items to the economy, removes a consumer as well as a producer (which over many deaths will tend to average out).

But the idea of "winning" would, in my mind, mean the removal of the person "winning" without them giving up anything. So you still remove a producer and a consumer, but all that they have gained during that time (which conceivably would be quite a bit in order to "win"), would suddenly be removed from the system. So every person that wins wreaks the system further.

After writing it, it doesn't sound as economically deadly as I first imagined but.. still holds true in my mind. Take for example a major player in OPEC. If the company, all of it's employees, all of it's materials and capital both liquid and non-liquid, as well as all of it's stakes in resources (meaning the resources as well since... if they "won" why do they have to return everything to the "pool"?) suddenly pulled out, imagine what that would do to our economic situation.
to clarify, what I meant by winning is once someone or some group of players achieves a set of goals the game restarts.
I was thinking the game would have the theme of corrupt politics versus the people, creating an environment of intense often subtle conflict, I think it might make an awesome game idea. the winning conditions I have in mind are like this: achieving total domination of all the countries/states/nations/territories through a combination of bribes, politics, monopolization, legislation, assassinations, propaganda, & warfare. the supreme challenge of this will make it take awhile if ever to accomplish this but in the meantime the struggle will be very interesting. I dont know how the winning part would be verified though.

I am thinking I might change my first post somewhat to reflect this refined idea I am looking for. or something close to what I am looking for. lots of corrupt politics, and the conflict it generates.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:18 AM   #13
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

I'm not sure I know of a mud that does this, but have you taken a look at A Tale in the Desert? It has a pretty robust economy, absolutely no combat, and the game resets when the "goals" of the game are met. I haven't played in years, but it was interesting when I did.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:32 AM   #14
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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I'm not sure I know of a mud that does this, but have you taken a look at A Tale in the Desert? It has a pretty robust economy, absolutely no combat, and the game resets when the "goals" of the game are met. I haven't played in years, but it was interesting when I did.
Interesting, I'll look into it.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:45 AM   #15
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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I know that TSOY will meet some of that depth but there's no chance a single person could wreak the kind of havoc you're describing. Can't see any game creating any depth at all either allowing or even finding a way to allow a player to do so. The kind of complexity you're talking about is the result of a economic and technologically advanced society and the greater the complexity the less the ability or likelihood that a single person can f*ck the whole thing up at least in the manner you're talking about.

Even if it were possible, and I don't believe it is (for one thing, such an economic system couldn't be "player run" without a massive playerbase but that's another discussion altogether), my suggestion would be that you start your own game, put in all the effort needed to create the kind of economic infrastructure and function you're talking about, then see if you're willing to let a player just come in and screw it all up and come back here and tell us all about it.
How do I play tsoy? I can't find a working website for it to get the game address.
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:20 AM   #16
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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How do I play tsoy? I can't find a working website for it to get the game address.
Wait a few years until we open. We took the website down when we moved our server last year and since we're starting over from scratch with the code, we haven't put the site back up since a lot on it is no longer valid.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:50 AM   #17
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Re: Looking For a complex Mud

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Wait a few years until we open. We took the website down when we moved our server last year and since we're starting over from scratch with the code, we haven't put the site back up since a lot on it is no longer valid.
Considering they are starting from scratch you might do well to make your own game with your ideas. It would be finished in about the same time, plus you will get everything you want rather than a smattering of things you don't.
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