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Old 09-20-2010, 01:10 PM   #41
shadowfyr
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Originally Posted by Darren Brimhall View Post
And there are many 'colorful' ways of retaliation; like your own fully equipped ICBM (only $1000L) or the smaller briefcase nuke ($1200L) that can really ruin the abusive players day--as can having contact with Staff Builders there, as she does, also helps out a great deal.
Hmm. Sound like griefer tools, which would get you banned in CCS. lol

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But what can keep players interested in RP is having the Game in questioned staffed by a dedicated group whos not only are commited to fairness, but are also willing to help players out with their problems while keeping them at arms length to avoid corruption and favorism--two major factors I consider that drive people away from Rping.

Darren Brimhall
Mind, its almost impossible, even without any actual corruption or favoritism, to avoid some people thinking they see it, sadly. Just had someone as of a few days ago whining about, "Why is someone only three months old being given GM rights?" The fact that you can't know if they are an alt or not, etc., somehow escaped them. And that is just the most likely reason. Anyone that opens their own sim, and pays to use the CCS system, is their own GM too. We even had an entire staff of people, that where long time residents, jump ship over "perceived" problems. Mind, they jumped ship for several different systems, and may not have settled on one yet, and most charge you for them as well, sometimes "more" than CCS did. One of the developers of a free MMO put it this way, more or less, paraphrasing, "You have to be willing to put up with every good thing you do getting almost no credit, and every thing you do for game balance, or which might annoy X% of the players, will be treated as a conspiracy to ruin your game for the players." Even if most understand "why" something changed, there will still be some percentage of people who insist it was bad, overkill, or just whine that they can't take unfair advantage over everyone else any more.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:51 AM   #42
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Hmm. Sound like griefer tools, which would get you banned in CCS. lol



Mind, its almost impossible, even without any actual corruption or favoritism, to avoid some people thinking they see it, sadly. Just had someone as of a few days ago whining about, "Why is someone only three months old being given GM rights?" The fact that you can't know if they are an alt or not, etc., somehow escaped them. And that is just the most likely reason. Anyone that opens their own sim, and pays to use the CCS system, is their own GM too. We even had an entire staff of people, that where long time residents, jump ship over "perceived" problems. Mind, they jumped ship for several different systems, and may not have settled on one yet, and most charge you for them as well, sometimes "more" than CCS did. One of the developers of a free MMO put it this way, more or less, paraphrasing, "You have to be willing to put up with every good thing you do getting almost no credit, and every thing you do for game balance, or which might annoy X% of the players, will be treated as a conspiracy to ruin your game for the players." Even if most understand "why" something changed, there will still be some percentage of people who insist it was bad, overkill, or just whine that they can't take unfair advantage over everyone else any more.

Um, what's CCS?


Taking unfair advantage over others is just wrong on so many levels for so many reasons--but hardly surprising, as it reminds me of a place I'm trying to forget and get away from.

The 'Three Month Old GM" is easy enought to explain--that player had friends on Staff who 'bent' the rules for them, instead of simply accepting story input from that player. Based on how strong the stories were, and how well recieved they were by the whole player base, then I could see that player being elevated to GM statis in less than a year (6 to 8 months of play time is fair enought if the player really knows their stuff). But short cutting with no real proof of capability is a Game I don't want to play.

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Old 09-21-2010, 06:25 PM   #43
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Um, what's CCS?


Taking unfair advantage over others is just wrong on so many levels for so many reasons--but hardly surprising, as it reminds me of a place I'm trying to forget and get away from.

The 'Three Month Old GM" is easy enough to explain--that player had friends on Staff who 'bent' the rules for them, instead of simply accepting story input from that player. Based on how strong the stories were, and how well recieved they were by the whole player base, then I could see that player being elevated to GM statis in less than a year (6 to 8 months of play time is fair enought if the player really knows their stuff). But short cutting with no real proof of capability is a Game I don't want to play.

Darren Brimhall
CCS is one of several systems in SL that provide combat. CCS (community combat system), is one big one. Other include, but this is not a complete list: DCS, 'RPS', 'RCS', 'TCS', 'RPCS', 'Carnage Island Combat' 'XCS', 'Pure Combat', 'BattleZone', BNWCS, 'Gorean Ladder Meter', URCS and HCS, etc.

And, sure, the accusation being made was that they got in due to "friends". The problem is, there are two **much** easier ways to do it. 1) set up your own sim for CCS, which *requires* that you have people picked out to provide such services. 2) Create a new character, so you GM when on as that character, but not as your normal one. Which is rare, but could happen. And, the point was, the person whining about it didn't have any facts, they just got annoyed that what ever set of sims they where on put someone as a GM that early. But, there are like 300+ sims that run the system, at least, and **most** of those have as much as 2-3 sims per "world". In other words, there may be 300 sims, but there are probably also *at least* 200 independent, non-overlapping, "worlds" defined by them, each unique for the person running them, each excluding everyone else, etc.

This person basically went on a global channel, used for handling non-local, database, or other issues, to whine about someone being made a GM where ever they where, and for all anyone reading the rant knew, that might have been one single, lone, sim, with no connection to any other part of the vast number of CCS worlds.

Basically, it is a bit like if someone showed up at the forums for the *original* SMAUG, to complain that someone else's mud, running on that code base, was, "unfairly making people GMs after only 3 months!".
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:56 PM   #44
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Re: What turns people from RP?

Second Life isn't a mud. How is it relevent to the topic? What does it have to do, even remotely, with "veterans of RP-Intensive MUDs who have turned away from them, and their reasons for doing so?"
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:35 PM   #45
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Second Life isn't a mud. How is it relevent to the topic? What does it have to do, even remotely, with "veterans of RP-Intensive MUDs who have turned away from them, and their reasons for doing so?"
Aroo?

I think that topic got split off some time ago.

We were discussing how people are turned away from RP in general. There's a certain group of Second Lifers that make it a serious point to RP. I think that's how it applies to this topic. Otherwise, it's my fault. I mentioned the reason that I never (or rarely) RP on MMOs, and I think the same reason could be applied to people who are turned off by RP on muds.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:41 PM   #46
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Re: What turns people from RP?

So it's your fault. The entire topic is ruined because of you, and because of MMOs. On Topic: I think people get turned off from RP because it's so much easier to be toons and sims, and not submerge themselves into a 3-dimensional persona other than themselves. It's a lot of work, RPing hardcore. It's mentally draining, and can be emotionally draining too. Playing a toon or a sim is - fun. In a non-committal kind of way. No one will get upset if you log out. No one will accuse you of wrecking the scene if you go linkdead. No one will feel slighted if you can't attend their Special Auction Of Awesome Blue Stuff.

Intensive RP can be so draining, that it just seems to make sense that the burnout rate would be higher. Not to mention all the other things people have said, such as "these games are over 10 years old, and most of the players were already in their early 20s when they started. Now they have families and children and full time jobs and lives, and the 8-hour marathon RP sessions simply don't fit in their personal plotlines anymore."

Last edited by Jazuela : 09-21-2010 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Added smileys so he'd know I was MAKING FUN
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:55 PM   #47
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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I think people get turned off from RP because it's so much easier to be toons and sims, and not submerge themselves into a 3-dimensional persona other than themselves. It's a lot of work, RPing hardcore. It's mentally draining, and can be emotionally draining too. Playing a toon or a sim is - fun. In a non-committal kind of way. No one will get upset if you log out. No one will accuse you of wrecking the scene if you go linkdead. No one will feel slighted if you can't attend their Special Auction Of Awesome Blue Stuff.

Intensive RP can be so draining, that it just seems to make sense that the burnout rate would be higher. Not to mention all the other things people have said, such as "these games are over 10 years old, and most of the players were already in their early 20s when they started. Now they have families and children and full time jobs and lives, and the 8-hour marathon RP sessions simply don't fit in their personal plotlines anymore."
Actually, I got turned off to RP because of the attitude that it involves some sort of great effort and suffering, an attitude usually expressed by those who claim to be "creating three-dimensional characters" but who are instead practicing wish-fulfillment and self-insertion of the most blatantly narcissistic kind (as witnessed by their propensity for personal OOC offense and dramatics in response to IC actions). If being creative and having fun is emotionally draining and you think that is what it should be, then frankly there's something wrong with you.

RP died when people started spending more time making character wikis and character DeviantArt pages and character LiveJournals and talking about the precious angst of their characters instead of logging in and playing the damn game by interacting with other people.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:25 AM   #48
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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RP died when people started spending more time making character wikis and character DeviantArt pages and character LiveJournals and talking about the precious angst of their characters instead of logging in and playing the damn game by interacting with other people.
Heh heh. That's pretty good and sometimes true. Play the game. I agree. I think the draw and the success of NWA is the ability for dramatic indepth roleplay cultivated with a healthy dose of serious adventuring. I mean, today there were two invasions, one in harsh southland that had people roleplaying a lot of angst, fear, and danger partly because of the possibility of permadeath partly because of the nature of the southland. And then another in the north where the huge armies clashed and blood, death, and mayhem reigned supreme.

I describe this because of the differences in styles and actions people take during conflict. It was very awesome to watch and for the players to be a integral part. I think too many times people forget to have fun in the moment with their characters and need to enjoy the opportunities for adventure and the beauty indepth roleplay as each arise.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:32 AM   #49
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Actually, I got turned off to RP because of the attitude that it involves some sort of great effort and suffering, an attitude usually expressed by those who claim to be "creating three-dimensional characters" but who are instead practicing wish-fulfillment and self-insertion of the most blatantly narcissistic kind (as witnessed by their propensity for personal OOC offense and dramatics in response to IC actions). If being creative and having fun is emotionally draining and you think that is what it should be, then frankly there's something wrong with you.
I've played conservative politicians despite being a liberal. I've played religious zealots despite being an atheist. I've played criminals despite being honest to a fault. I've played murderers despite being a pacifist. I don't want to be any of these characters I played. I enjoyed creating a character that fits into the game world in a way which proved interesting in their dealings with other characters and the setting. Was it exhausting? No, though I have played characters who were exhausting due to particular aspects of their personality which meant I was constantly in a very hyper mindset to depict them properly. As an admin I was a bit exhausted a couple times when handling RPTs where I was animating two, three and even four different characters having a conversation with one another, switching between them every couple seconds and endeavoring to transition the RP smoothly between their completely different personalities. The fun came from the results: the role-play of a scene that was effected smoothly and which brought others enjoyment as well.

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RP died when people started spending more time making character wikis and character DeviantArt pages and character LiveJournals and talking about the precious angst of their characters instead of logging in and playing the damn game by interacting with other people.
You're confusing socializing and role-playing. Interacting with other people is socializing. Creating and bringing to life a character is role-playing. Different people take different approaches to designing and fleshing out their character. RP doesn't die as a result of that process; it thrives. What you seem to be referring to is "RP" of the sort you find in console RPGs or MMOs like WoW. That's to RP what a rancid roadkill is to a seven-course gourmet dinner.

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Old 09-22-2010, 11:36 PM   #50
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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You're confusing socializing and role-playing. Interacting with other people is socializing. Creating and bringing to life a character is role-playing.

Nope, don't think he is confusing it. Many people think RP involves interacting with other people.

I read a really good novel on a flight earlier this week. The author did a great job of bringing the character to life. Not once did I feel like I was roleplaying with the the author I can't speak for the author, but I'd be very surprised if she thought she was roleplaying.

Anyhow. RP is defined a lot of different ways. There are group of us who favor one style over another or one set of characteristics over another, but I think it safe to safe we all share the common idea of pretending to be something we are not. We seem to be hardest on our fellow roleplayers. If they aren't like us, then they must be doing something wrong. Its wonderful that we all seem to have this passion about something we like to do. Its unfortunate that that passion seems to do more to separate us then to bring us together.

Do the H&S guys argue over silly crap too?
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:54 PM   #51
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Nope, don't think he is confusing it. Many people think RP involves interacting with other people.

I read a really good novel on a flight earlier this week. The author did a great job of bringing the character to life. Not once did I feel like I was roleplaying with the the author I can't speak for the author, but I'd be very surprised if she thought she was roleplaying.

Anyhow. RP is defined a lot of different ways. There are group of us who favor one style over another or one set of characteristics over another, but I think it safe to safe we all share the common idea of pretending to be something we are not. We seem to be hardest on our fellow roleplayers. If they aren't like us, then they must be doing something wrong. Its wonderful that we all seem to have this passion about something we like to do. Its unfortunate that that passion seems to do more to separate us then to bring us together.

Do the H&S guys argue over silly crap too?
Yeah.. Not enough monsters, too many people killing them, everyone having the same armor, and everything being too easy to kill... lol
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Old 09-24-2010, 12:32 PM   #52
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Aroo?

I think that topic got split off some time ago.

We were discussing how people are turned away from RP in general. There's a certain group of Second Lifers that make it a serious point to RP. I think that's how it applies to this topic. Otherwise, it's my fault. I mentioned the reason that I never (or rarely) RP on MMOs, and I think the same reason could be applied to people who are turned off by RP on muds.

It can actually apply. Besides Gorean, there's what I call Hogwarts 2053 AD (set 40 years after Deathly Hollows), two Mideval sites and several intensive Combat areas in SL. And a friend of mine there is trying to set up a RP place of her own.

But in all, its how you look at it I guess.

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Old 09-26-2010, 04:12 PM   #53
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Anyhow. RP is defined a lot of different ways. There are group of us who favor one style over another or one set of characteristics over another, but I think it safe to safe we all share the common idea of pretending to be something we are not. We seem to be hardest on our fellow roleplayers. If they aren't like us, then they must be doing something wrong. Its wonderful that we all seem to have this passion about something we like to do. Its unfortunate that that passion seems to do more to separate us then to bring us together.
There's another group of people who play solo computer RPGs who feel that roleplaying is simply building a character even if it is built by the computer and a series of action by the player. This includes games like Dungeon Siege, Morrowind, and Oblivion! I've had that argument before, and honestly, I can't say that I couldn't see his point of view.

I definitely agree that it's defined in a lot of different ways by many different personalities.

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Do the H&S guys argue over silly crap too?
It might be worse with the H&S guys, honestly, though we don't see it much here. This usually occurs on the individual game's forums. The elitism is pretty bad between RP communities with one group thinking they are far superior to another group, but really, that's only in their own mind or community. The H&S arguments are way worse because they involve rallying admins to nerf specific classes or groups of people, and when code is involved, it affects the game in the a real way. It doesn't really affect me to any great extent if someone thinks their RP is far superior to mine. There's plenty of other people who are willing to play with me and like it! It affects me a great deal if my healer is now 25% less effective because a group my team beat last week cried for a nerf.
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Old 09-26-2010, 04:39 PM   #54
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Re: What turns people from RP?

Problem with H&S is, it doesn't matter why something got changed, you still got some moron crying "nerf". The one I played at for some time, and still have a character on, had a complete change of admin, do to the prior ones getting burned out, and a few of them getting caught handing things to people that shouldn't have had them. One of the things done was the revamp the whole system, especially for the few PVP areas in the mud. Why? Because it really was a damn mess, no one ever bothered to fix it from the old staff, and a few things where actually tweaked wrong, to create imbalances. We also had the college where the server was screw with their wiring, and leave the mud down for almost 6 months.. Result of the initial revamp was loss of 20% of the player based, 5-10% of them due to either being cheaters that turned out to have been getting perks they shouldn't, or taking advantage of bugs, even **after** being told this was going to be cracked down on, or they where friends of the people doing it. The rest, just got ****ed off that something "got nerfed". We lost another 30-40% to the down time.

But, yeah. H&S people get so numbers oriented that when you change the numbers, even if you do so to fix long standing bugs, or make certain monsters actually hard to kill again, etc., they freak over the changes, even when they claim to understand why its being done.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:04 PM   #55
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Problem with H&S is, it doesn't matter why something got changed, you still got some moron crying "nerf".
Last year I ran a "nerf week", where I fixed a load of balance issues that had built up over time. The feedback was really positive - I don't actually recall any complaints.
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Old 09-26-2010, 07:35 PM   #56
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Last year I ran a "nerf week", where I fixed a load of balance issues that had built up over time. The feedback was really positive - I don't actually recall any complaints.
Good point. Also worth mentioning your game's very generous ability to change the character builds.

A nerf is much more damaging if you're stuck with the new, less effective, skill and unable to change to something more effective. If you're able to swap it out, then you're not as likely to feel hard done by.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:39 PM   #57
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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There's another group of people who play solo computer RPGs who feel that roleplaying is simply building a character even if it is built by the computer and a series of action by the player. This includes games like Dungeon Siege, Morrowind, and Oblivion! I've had that argument before, and honestly, I can't say that I couldn't see his point of view.
You are right. I wouldn't try to argue that people don't roleplay in those types of games.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:12 PM   #58
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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You are right. I wouldn't try to argue that people don't roleplay in those types of games.
I'd argue that they (sometimes) do.
I'd argue that you are "roleplaying" as soon as you make decisions based on the character you're playing, rather than based on yourself.

As an example:
When I'm playing Quake or Doom, the game gives me no motivation to think "as my character does" - I go in a room, I shoot stuff. If I don't, it shoots me. The only decisions I make are tactical. I, the player, am making those decisions.

When I'm playing Baldurs Gate, the game gives me choices for my *character* to make. Do I sweet talk the thief, or threaten him? As a player, I might still approach those choices as tactical problems, choosing what I think will best achieve my goal - but I have the *option* to instead approach them as roleplaying choices. When I'm playing Zugg the orc, do I try to threaten them more often than when I'm playing Eldril the elf? Probably. If so, I'm roleplaying, even if only to a small extent.

A game like Mass Effects, by my definition, certainly has roleplaying aspects. Most of the game involves running around and shooting - no roleplaying there. I couldn't parlay, cowardly run from the battle, or take any option other than using my player skills to attempt to win the fight. But when I hit a cutscene, it often gives me options that allow me to decide "in character" - especially since these options rarely display any clues as to which would be tactically more advantageous. Do I send in the fleet to protect the council, or do I hold them in reserve to attack the enemy? A tactical choice, but both presented as equally valid options. Which is more important to my character? That's my roleplaying choice. And after I've made that choice, it goes back to a non-roleplaying FPS game.

Of course, I might choose not to take advantage of those options. I might choose whatever I, the player, feel like at the time with no consideration for playing a self-consistent character. Or I might make the choices based on "what would I do in that situation?" - in those cases, I'm really not roleplaying. I have the opportunity, but I choose not to take advantage of it. Zugg the orc might be just as likely to attempt flirting as Eldril the elf, the character and name might make no difference to me other than the avatar displayed on the screen. But that's alright. This whole thread is about what turns people away from RP, I can understand why someone playing a FPS like Mass Effects might not really care about whether they stay "in character" or not during the cutscenes.

I wouldn't consider "character building" (as in, skill selection) to be roleplaying. When I play Diablo, I choose a barbarian or sorceress. I get different skills. I end up with a different character each time. But when I'm playing the game, like with Doom, I'm still making the choices based on the player, not based on the character. I'm choosing the spells my sorceress will learn based on what I'll find most fun, or based on what I think will give the largest tactical advantage. There's nothing built into the game to encourage me to think "Maybe I won't take ice magic, because that makes you cold and impersonal, while my Sorceress is a typically friendly sort of person" - I might still decide that, but it would be the player imposing a story on the game, and not the game encouraging that behaviour.

Wow, I rambled a lot.
In summary: For me, roleplaying starts at the point where a player will vary their character's actions based on their perceived view of the personality of that character.
i.e. the point where they start using the character as a puppet to play out a role, rather than just as an extension of themselves.
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Old 10-18-2010, 12:54 PM   #59
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Re: What turns people from RP?

Hmmmm...Thongh I had poisted before this..

Oh well..


Where I used to play for nearly a decade until very recently (and all of you know the place) had this problem. What occured was the StoryPlotters would create the situration, and just let it go at that until enough time was spent meandering around doing this and that between large gaps of doing nothing until finally an end was decided. Sloppy, terribly sloppy.
If you are going to set up a plot, any plot, besides having a start it must also have a clearly defined middle and end. The middle can consist of steps consisting of discovering nessicarry information that the players must go through to reach the end, thus the plot builds up to its climax at a steady evenly paced rate instead of meandering all over the place like a cow in a field. So people may like meandering, but for me it must have a purpose that adds to the plot--as did many other players who simply left for greener and more fullfilling pastures.


Eliteism is another spoiler, where players with serious ego problems dominate the plot simply because they feel they must reguardless of weither or not it wrecks the play of others who are trying to get into the plot. They consider their characters to be 'heroic' and therefore must 'lead' in all siturations, unfortunately this stifles the growth of other players leading to stagnation of the game and players leaving for greener pastures.
There were jerks like that at that other game. They couldn't be removed because they had friends on staff that protected them from everything, and were so arrogant they wouldn't step asside even for the Game's continued exsistance.

And finally there was the useage of OOC information in a very un-IC maner against other players, especially by one who's still there playing her character. Despite complaints logged by me, all (I really don't know if it's legal to name names here, espcially character names. So I'm leaving the name out untill I get permission from the Board Mod here to do so) recieved was a simple talking to and most likely it was done in private. While in the Game, the character recived another title..

Favored Players...It's what happens when you draw your game's staff from the player base.
What makes it sad, is that it was sunch an interesting place too.

Oh well, onward and upward.

Darren Brimhall

Last edited by Darren Brimhall : 10-18-2010 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:50 PM   #60
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Re: What turns people from RP?

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Originally Posted by silvarilon View Post
Good point. Also worth mentioning your game's very generous ability to change the character builds.

A nerf is much more damaging if you're stuck with the new, less effective, skill and unable to change to something more effective. If you're able to swap it out, then you're not as likely to feel hard done by.
I agree completely. Nerfs are rarely something people are psyched about (at least the ones that affect their own character), but being able to change and adjust makes it a lot easier to swallow.

I have gotten to the point where I simply won't play a game that locks me into game mechanic choices that I have to make at a time where I have no real, long term idea what the impact will be. I don't mind permanent ROLEPLAY choices, but game mechanic choices being permanent is a huge downer.
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