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Old 10-10-2010, 01:17 PM   #1
dayrinni
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Are MUDs still popular?

Hello,

I was the owner/programmer of a MUD many years ago (ATS). I had to leave the scene for 5ish years and have decided to see what is happening.

I am considering starting a new MUD, which will be from the ground up in Java. I already have a working base and am considering if I should take it further. I do not want to waste time on something that is destined to fail because no one plays these games.

So my questions are: are MUDs still popular? Should I give it a try?

Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:56 PM   #2
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

From a player perspective, I dont think they are going anywhere, but most MUD's are only targetted at a specific crowd of existing MUD'ders so the player base is quite small to share around.

Surely in this age where thanks to social networks, where we now have more gamers than ever and gaming is now acceptable, all of them grinding, levelling up, etc etc MUD's could be reinvented / retargetted to hit this new batch of gamers who could be just as interested in text based adventuring as we all were 10+ years ago.

Everyone likes to read, and now everyone likes to play games apparently.. brnig ther two together and see what happens.

Personally I think dropping the name MUD is a good start, regardless of how accurate it is. MUD to most people means OLD!
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Old 10-10-2010, 03:49 PM   #3
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
Personally I think dropping the name MUD is a good start, regardless of how accurate it is. MUD to most people means OLD!
Outside of the MUD community, I'm not sure how many people have even heard of the term "MUD". But there does seem to have been a push on the client front in the last few years, with an increase in browser clients and other types of GUI - even some iPhone clients. If you're advertising to an audience that have probably never heard of MUDs then I think it does make sense to promote your game differently.

I know not everyone trusts its figures, but I've found MudStats can give a pretty good indication of player numbers.
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Old 10-10-2010, 04:27 PM   #4
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Outside of the MUD community, I'm not sure how many people have even heard of the term "MUD". But there does seem to have been a push on the client front in the last few years, with an increase in browser clients and other types of GUI - even some iPhone clients. If you're advertising to an audience that have probably never heard of MUDs then I think it does make sense to promote your game differently.

I know not everyone trusts its figures, but I've found MudStats can give a pretty good indication of player numbers.
It only takes a few young bigots, such as evidenced by some editors on Wiki and MUD's names becomes.. um... mud all over again. Reinvention is an approach which could seriously rejuvinate the whole genre. GUI's is one of the huge steps forward.. especially in the age where the book and reading is moving quickly into the digital age.

Whereas I should of course mention Primordiax, or the great work you (KaVir) has done with the interface for MUSH to control godwars I will actually look at Stormfront.. the gemstone interface.

This client almost makes the entire game controllable by mouseclicks.. inventory management, combat, casting, object manipulation. This takes MUD control into a whole new light. Take advanrage of their free trial, and go be amazed at just how good Stormfront is. I was actually blown away, and even though I do tend to spend rather a lot of my money on MUD's I play on payforperks etc, I will not be -forced- to pay a subscription fee when there are amazing quality MUD's that can be played for free.. otherwise I would probably still be playing it.
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:03 PM   #5
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

This has turned out to be a rather interesting thread. Thank you for your replies.

I've long wanted to make a very good MUD over the past ten years. I never really had the skill to do it until the past few years, but I was too busy doing other things to really consider doing a new MUD. While my old MUD had some success, it had major design issues.

So from what I've gathered it seems I (and anyone else for that matter) could have a reasonable chance success of doing a new MUD. Especially since the replies haven't given a blunt "No".

Anyways, the thought on social networking and gaming is a very interesting one. Social networking and gaming has become extremely popular these days. I recently watched a video about a game developer/professor where he gave a lecture and some of the topics he spoke about was how making games more social adds an entire extra layer of competitiveness. I found that interesting because it showed how that sort of influence can essentially make people play the game more and more. Another thing he used was different pricing schemes to get "people hooked in". I believe one example in one game he used was how a player could collect "coins" but could not use them until they paid a fee. So a child was playing this game and asked if they could get money to pay the fee; the parent said no at first. After the child collected more of these coins, the parent said "Hey, if they collected this many over the past few weeks then they are going to stick with this." and then they pony'ed up the money. I wish I could find the link to this video because it hits quite a few topics that I don't really hear other developers talk about. Maybe some of you have seen this video.

Do you guys know if open beta MUDs are common these days? Or do most MUD developers wait until they have a reasonably finished product?

Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:05 PM   #6
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
It only takes a few young bigots, such as evidenced by some editors on Wiki and MUD's names becomes.. um... mud all over again. Reinvention is an approach which could seriously rejuvinate the whole genre. GUI's is one of the huge steps forward.. especially in the age where the book and reading is moving quickly into the digital age.

Whereas I should of course mention Primordiax, or the great work you (KaVir) has done with the interface for MUSH to control godwars I will actually look at Stormfront.. the gemstone interface.

This client almost makes the entire game controllable by mouseclicks.. inventory management, combat, casting, object manipulation. This takes MUD control into a whole new light. Take advanrage of their free trial, and go be amazed at just how good Stormfront is. I was actually blown away, and even though I do tend to spend rather a lot of my money on MUD's I play on payforperks etc, I will not be -forced- to pay a subscription fee when there are amazing quality MUD's that can be played for free.. otherwise I would probably still be playing it.
I have considered something like this in the past. I played Dragon's Gate on AOL a long time ago and they had a UI that you could do some interaction with. It was cool. I could incorporate something on the same lines as it, and probably more complex. In fact, it would be pretty easy to do. I suppose I would have to check the games you made mention of to see the type of things people are doing these days.
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:06 PM   #7
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

Playing your average MUD is like reading a bad book, what rests is a medium that is more suited for imaginary role play than anything else out there.

As a genre it's still dying, commercial MUDs have been unsuccessful at growth through attracting players from outside the mudding community, and last time I checked they're slowly losing players as high quality free graphical MMOs are gaining popularity.

One area where MUDs could beat graphical games is the ability to dynamically render the world in text using a physics engine, but even if this could be accomplished (doubtful anyone will pull it off) someone will create a believable graphical physics engine sooner or later, restoring the current imbalance where MUDs are cool for blind people and introverts with a reading fetish.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:58 AM   #8
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Angry Re: Are MUDs still popular?

IMHO, not really. Old diehards like me still play them but it's pretty obvious the new generation's too stupid for text based games. It would involve <shudder> reading! Worse yet, some muds even make you think. Critically. Oh god the humanity.

Yep, I'm being partly sarcastic and partly bitter. The new generation's no dumber but the smart ones don't ever find MUD's because they're no longer running on University servers. Now all you get are the video gamers. The same class of morons who used to play Donkey Kong and Pac Man are the only ones who find MUDs. So the only muds that do well now are exceedingly dumbed down garbage like Merc's Circle, etc. Crap where you just run around repetitively killing mobs until you hit level 1 billion. And all done in glaring insane ansi colours of course.

BLEH!
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:56 AM   #9
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Originally Posted by dayrinni View Post
So from what I've gathered it seems I (and anyone else for that matter) could have a reasonable chance success of doing a new MUD.
Depending on how pedantically you want to define "reasonable" and "success". As always, creating a mud is a lot of work, and player expectations have changed over the years. There are some pretty feature-rich muds out there, so players these days can afford to be more picky. The majority of players reside on a minority of muds, so you'll have to work hard if you want to woo them over to your game.

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Do you guys know if open beta MUDs are common these days? Or do most MUD developers wait until they have a reasonably finished product?
It varies. Some people just download a stock mud, change the title screen, and advertise it as open. But those who create an original game usually have a period of closed development followed by a period of open beta. In my experience it's very difficult (from a motivation perspective) to work for a long period of time without any feedback, but on the other hand if you invite players before there's anything to do, they won't hang around, and may not even come back later. I spent nearly a year in closed development before I invited playtesters, but there wasn't enough gameplay to retain their interest.

Oh and of course there are people who say that text muds are dead/dying - if you were around 5 years ago I'm sure that comes as no surprise. In fact I used to collect quotes of people saying that each year, all the way back to 1990...

However as I mentioned in my previous post, there's been a push in recent years towards graphical clients, in the form of browser clients (including Facebook applications), downloadable clients, customised interfaces for established mud clients, iPhone applications, etc. The primary difference between a MUD and a MMORPG lies in the client, so I think we're going to see the boundry between the two begin to blur.
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:28 PM   #10
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
Depending on how pedantically you want to define "reasonable" and "success". As always, creating a mud is a lot of work, and player expectations have changed over the years. There are some pretty feature-rich muds out there, so players these days can afford to be more picky. The majority of players reside on a minority of muds, so you'll have to work hard if you want to woo them over to your game.
I think I'd be happy with around 10-30 people consistent players. I was able to maintain that sized player base described above, so I'd be fine with that.


Quote:
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It varies. Some people just download a stock mud, change the title screen, and advertise it as open. But those who create an original game usually have a period of closed development followed by a period of open beta. In my experience it's very difficult (from a motivation perspective) to work for a long period of time without any feedback, but on the other hand if you invite players before there's anything to do, they won't hang around, and may not even come back later. I spent nearly a year in closed development before I invited playtesters, but there wasn't enough gameplay to retain their interest.
Is this game you speak of with the long development time your current one (God of Wars II)?

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However as I mentioned in my previous post, there's been a push in recent years towards graphical clients, in the form of browser clients (including Facebook applications), downloadable clients, customised interfaces for established mud clients, iPhone applications, etc. The primary difference between a MUD and a MMORPG lies in the client, so I think we're going to see the boundry between the two begin to blur.
I will have to surely investigate this further. I am interested in seeing what other people have done.

Thanks!
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:47 AM   #11
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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I think I'd be happy with around 10-30 people consistent players. I was able to maintain that sized player base described above, so I'd be fine with that.
Even that can be difficult - it's hard to reach critical mass, because most players won't give your game a chance if there aren't any other players. So the first player connects, sees nobody else on, and quits. The second player connects, sees nobody else on, and quits. And so on...

Of course that doesn't mean it can't be done, but the days of "build it and they will come" are long gone. There are too many muds for that, players have a lot of choice and it's very easy for them to find new muds to try. You need to grab their attention and keep it, or they'll move on to the next game on the list.

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Is this game you speak of with the long development time your current one (God of Wars II)?
God Wars II, yes. 16 months of design, 11 months of closed development, 9 months of closed beta, 21 months as a separate spinoff game (to test the engine), and 5 years of open beta. If you're interested, you can read through the different stages of development.

There's another mud called ConQUEST that recently opened for testing - after 5 years of development.

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I will have to surely investigate this further. I am interested in seeing what other people have done.
Here are some examples (in alphabetical order, with screenshots when I could find them):
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:37 AM   #12
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Even that can be difficult - it's hard to reach critical mass, because most players won't give your game a chance if there aren't any other players. So the first player connects, sees nobody else on, and quits. The second player connects, sees nobody else on, and quits. And so on...

Of course that doesn't mean it can't be done, but the days of "build it and they will come" are long gone. There are too many muds for that, players have a lot of choice and it's very easy for them to find new muds to try. You need to grab their attention and keep it, or they'll move on to the next game on the list.

Well that is kind of a bummer. I enjoyed the atmosphere of "build it and they will come". I do not like to poach players from other games on any level. So it seems I'd be hard pressed to get players from the current community, especially, if there are MUDs out there that are feature rich. I suppose one could make the same argument of making a 3D MMORPG when WoW is in existence (I do realize it is not THAT simple but hopefully you get my point).

I am fairly confident I can get something out within 6 months. I have much of the code base already coded up and the current version is playable. I want to redo the class/race system and then make the content. So...I don't know.

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God Wars II, yes. 16 months of design, 11 months of closed development, 9 months of closed beta, 21 months as a separate spinoff game (to test the engine), and 5 years of open beta. If you're interested, you can read through the different stages of development.

There's another mud called ConQUEST that recently opened for testing - after 5 years of development.
That is a long time and a lot of work. Hopefully for the both of you, it pays off!

My experience went a little differently...
I was in high school in the late 90's and wanted to make a MUD but did not know how to code. So I spent several years trying to create a few MUD but not as the coder. This failed, like really failed haha. Then I went to college around 2001 and I started to teach myself C and I spent a few years from 2002 to 2004-2005ish working on the total conversion. It was slow going because I was in the process of learning how to program and trying to modify a huge code base took time. We had a few open betas, and attracted a small group of people (10-15). The first open beta was pretty good, found some things that needed to be changed, and modified. Then we re-opened in a new open beta in Springish of 2005. It was very successful compared to the previous open beta. But at this point, maintaining the game and implementing the changes we wanted to go forward with was very time consuming and tedious in fastrom. Then real life pretty much smacked me in the head and we had to shut down that November (2005).

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Here are some examples (in alphabetical order, with screenshots when I could find them):
Thanks, I'll check these out.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:55 AM   #13
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

Well, I checked out those links and it pretty much is apparent the ship has sailed on this one.

The amount of work that I/we would have to do to even compete with those other games is far too great. Especially if the influx of new players to the genre is very little.

Thanks for having this discussion with me and good luck.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:34 AM   #14
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Well that is kind of a bummer. I enjoyed the atmosphere of "build it and they will come". I do not like to poach players from other games on any level. So it seems I'd be hard pressed to get players from the current community, especially, if there are MUDs out there that are feature rich. I suppose one could make the same argument of making a 3D MMORPG when WoW is in existence (I do realize it is not THAT simple but hopefully you get my point).
Quite a few of my players are first-time mudders - it seems my game doesn't appeal to most of the established mudders. It's certainly possible to attract players without deliberately poaching them from other muds.

However I think it's always going to be the case that the majority of players will play a minority of muds. In fact Raph Koster wrote an interesting article about MMO long tails back in 2007, in which he discussed the same trend in MMORPGs.

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Originally Posted by dayrinni View Post
I am fairly confident I can get something out within 6 months. I have much of the code base already coded up and the current version is playable. I want to redo the class/race system and then make the content. So...I don't know.
If you've already got something playable, then I'd go for it. It was always reaching that point that was the major road bump for me.

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Well, I checked out those links and it pretty much is apparent the ship has sailed on this one.

The amount of work that I/we would have to do to even compete with those other games is far too great.
Because of the client? If you want a custom GUI, it's really not very difficult.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:03 PM   #15
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Quite a few of my players are first-time mudders - it seems my game doesn't appeal to most of the established mudders. It's certainly possible to attract players without deliberately poaching them from other muds.

However I think it's always going to be the case that the majority of players will play a minority of muds. In fact Raph Koster wrote an interesting article about MMO long tails back in 2007, in which he discussed the same trend in MMORPGs.
I read that page, the comments and another one that contained a link. It was enjoyable, and informative. The concept of the long trail is brilliantly obvious. Personally, I feel the MMORPG market has become so saturated with the current gen type of games that it is very difficult to really have a successful product. But...that is for another discussion

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If you've already got something playable, then I'd go for it. It was always reaching that point that was the major road bump for me.
I suppose that you have a point. It would be a shame for it to go to waste. To be honest, I'm really divided on this (as you can tell), haha. My main issue is getting people involved. My fear is I spend, say 6 months, open and run into the situation where a lot of people connect but at different times and leave.

So what I would need to do is to try to generate interest while I work on the game and get people involved. It doesn't make sense (as you mentioned earlier, so I agree with you on this) to release something that can't keep people busy. But perhaps I can write up weekly/bi weekly development journals on this site (and other relevant sites). People will read these and see what I'm doing, and hopefully get involved. If things go well, people can start giving feedback/etc and we can go from there.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:18 AM   #16
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

There is a way of getting a good playerbase, and that is to hit a popular genre of somekind without actually hitting copywrite laws.

If I ever decided for fun to develop a mud, I know exactly what genre I would hit. I am not going to share, but I know it would have a valid and interested playerbase almost immediatly.

A bit of reasearch on what is out there might reveal a nugget you can exploit to your advantage and then actually hit the fan sites for those as opposed to this website. Go for a whole new player base as opposed to ones with loyalties already.

You cant quit on a project simply because you feel it wont be a success. A new -fresh- approach not aimed at the existing player base may rejuvinate the text based MMO / MUD.

Primordiax has quiet periods, and is still very much indevelopment and has not has any kind of major advertising push as of yet, but it can have 25-30+ online at peak times expecially when there is an RPT, and most of these players are new to MUD's and more importantly are NOT ex / current Threshold players.

EDIT - This is not saying Threshers are bad, just emphasising it is not Frogdice loyalty that is fueling the playerbase

A good game can WORK, and as mentioned and advise, I personally think it is all about the interface now.

Just replicate the standard interface of all todays MMO's and stick a text box in the middle. You then have an interface that 20+ million people can use easily.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:47 PM   #17
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudMann View Post
There is a way of getting a good playerbase, and that is to hit a popular genre of somekind without actually hitting copywrite laws.

If I ever decided for fun to develop a mud, I know exactly what genre I would hit. I am not going to share, but I know it would have a valid and interested playerbase almost immediatly.

A bit of reasearch on what is out there might reveal a nugget you can exploit to your advantage and then actually hit the fan sites for those as opposed to this website. Go for a whole new player base as opposed to ones with loyalties already.

You cant quit on a project simply because you feel it wont be a success. A new -fresh- approach not aimed at the existing player base may rejuvinate the text based MMO / MUD.

Primordiax has quiet periods, and is still very much indevelopment and has not has any kind of major advertising push as of yet, but it can have 25-30+ online at peak times expecially when there is an RPT, and most of these players are new to MUD's and more importantly are NOT ex / current Threshold players.

EDIT - This is not saying Threshers are bad, just emphasising it is not Frogdice loyalty that is fueling the playerbase

A good game can WORK, and as mentioned and advise, I personally think it is all about the interface now.

Just replicate the standard interface of all todays MMO's and stick a text box in the middle. You then have an interface that 20+ million people can use easily.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

You do bring up a good point about the genre. People are attracted to different things, and it could be possible to gain a following just from being in the right area. Maybe I can find out a good area to start in.

I think I'm going to go for it, I just need to ponder more what I should do and what type of systems (ie: class system) I would like to add.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:21 PM   #18
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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I think I'm going to go for it, I just need to ponder more what I should do and what type of systems (ie: class system) I would like to add.
Before you think about your systems, I advise you to think about your game types and themes.

What sort of game do you want to make? Don't tell me "A mud" or "A H&S"
Tell me "A political game about social struggle" or "a steampunk game of mystery and invention" or "a combat game about barbarians fighting against a savage environment"

Then design your systems accordingly. Keep going back to your "core concept" and reconsidering whether it adds or removes. Do you want a food system that requires regular eating? Maybe in that barbarian game you do, since it helps emphasis the difficulty of surviving in the harsh environment. Maybe in the political game you don't want it, as it doesn't help the political gameplay, and might distract if someone runs off to get dinner in the middle of things. Or maybe you do want the food system, because you plan to make food supply a political issue (with actions that players can take to cut off food supply to the city, or to restrict food based on social classes, or character allegiance.) Maybe an intricate crafting system would be wanted for the steampunk game, that requires specific knowledge to make various items, and that knowledge is found through exploration and discovery.

That's not to say the barbarian game can't have an intricate crafting system. Just that you should stop and think about whether the system adds to the game. If not, think about whether the system distracts from the game. Maybe it's not going to make much difference, but you think it'd be fun to add anyway. Great, that's fine.

Once you have a mission statement, decisions like how to handle character leveling become much clearer. Heck, do you even need classes and levels at all? What does that add? What does that take away?

It'll also help when you have other staff, you'll be able to give them more freedom to make their own decisions about game design, knowing that you'll both put in systems that lead to the same end goal.
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:38 AM   #19
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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My main issue is getting people involved. My fear is I spend, say 6 months, open and run into the situation where a lot of people connect but at different times and leave.
Personally I found one of the more effective ways to build up an initial playerbase was to make sure the game had enjoyable solo activities. There are a minority of players who are happy to play a mud as if it were a single-player game, as long as it's entertaining - if you can appeal to these players, you can build up a small core of regulars, enough that casual visitors won't just quit within a minute or two of logging on (although some newbies will always do this, regardless of how many other players you've got).

Other than that, I've found that players are more likely to hang around if I'm online - even now that I've got a fairly stable (albeit small) playerbase, if I'm on vacation for more than a few days it dips noticably. My playerbase also fluctuates quite a lot based on my development activity, and I believe muds that hold scheduled events also see a rise in players for those events.

But all of this requires time and effort. A playerbase isn't a static thing, you need to work hard to maintain it - even if you open your doors in 6 months and hordes of newbies rush in, if you don't keep working on it they will drift away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dayrinni View Post
I think I'm going to go for it, I just need to ponder more what I should do and what type of systems (ie: class system) I would like to add.
A few years ago I described a generic background system, which you might find of interest if you don't have a clear idea how you'd like to handle classes. It can be used to represent both class-based and classless systems (even both at the same time if you wish), and can also cover races, alignment, clans, supernatural afflictions, and so on.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:00 AM   #20
dayrinni
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Re: Are MUDs still popular?

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Originally Posted by silvarilon View Post
Before you think about your systems, I advise you to think about your game types and themes.

What sort of game do you want to make? Don't tell me "A mud" or "A H&S"
Tell me "A political game about social struggle" or "a steampunk game of mystery and invention" or "a combat game about barbarians fighting against a savage environment"

Then design your systems accordingly. Keep going back to your "core concept" and reconsidering whether it adds or removes. Do you want a food system that requires regular eating? Maybe in that barbarian game you do, since it helps emphasis the difficulty of surviving in the harsh environment. Maybe in the political game you don't want it, as it doesn't help the political gameplay, and might distract if someone runs off to get dinner in the middle of things. Or maybe you do want the food system, because you plan to make food supply a political issue (with actions that players can take to cut off food supply to the city, or to restrict food based on social classes, or character allegiance.) Maybe an intricate crafting system would be wanted for the steampunk game, that requires specific knowledge to make various items, and that knowledge is found through exploration and discovery.

That's not to say the barbarian game can't have an intricate crafting system. Just that you should stop and think about whether the system adds to the game. If not, think about whether the system distracts from the game. Maybe it's not going to make much difference, but you think it'd be fun to add anyway. Great, that's fine.

Once you have a mission statement, decisions like how to handle character leveling become much clearer. Heck, do you even need classes and levels at all? What does that add? What does that take away?

It'll also help when you have other staff, you'll be able to give them more freedom to make their own decisions about game design, knowing that you'll both put in systems that lead to the same end goal.
You bring up all of the right points and it is something that I will have to consider to ensure that this will be successful. By approaching it from the standpoint you mentioned, it will ensure that everything is consistent in the world. Having a patch work of a game will make things difficult on the players.

I have always been a fan of games where the world starts out "peaceful" and then a series of events (which are done through staff ran monthly quests) lead up to a point where a great "evil" occurs and the players have to try and fight it off. Of course, it is much more detailed than that - for example some players help the great evil come into being and so on.

I like RP enforced MUDs with RP-only-PK. So the above type of world meshes well into this format.

In the previous MUD that I did, ATS, we had the same type of thing. We had a complex story line that was going to lead to the main event where the players would have to defend the world against the great evil. Unfortunately, it never got that far because I had to shut the game down. The players seemed to enjoy it. A few of them even were able to piece together where things were going. It was a lot of run. We had monthly staff run quests and everyone was able to take part in them. Some of them involved a lot of combat and there was a setting that I could turn on that made death not be harmful (we had a system that zeroed out the character's experience points) to the characters - so the players could focus on the story and the events. Each quest slowly built up the main story line in one way or another.

I will definitely do this on this MUD. I'm also considering the same type of idea. It worked well and we never got to finish the story

I usually hide in the darkness while my projects are in progress. Actually, right now I am working on a project (it is not MUD related) and no one knows about it. But this one, I will try to make it as open as possible. I believe I will put up everything I do in a thread or something similar for everyone to see. Perhaps some people will find it interesting?
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