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Old 10-08-2010, 09:56 AM   #181
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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Atonement sounds awesome, and from the guest login wandering and the stories on the website drips atmosphere and potential, but why plug a game that isnt actually accepting new players at the moment.. thats like dangling a carrot and when the donkey goes for a bite he smashes his nose on the bulletproof (donkey proof?) glass that is in the way



Oh, and now I am older and more patient, I will give Arm another go, just re-reading all the docs... again

BUT liking the games and being impressed with them as I do love RP and a good read does not mean I think it is fair for them to keep the term RPI as their own
It's really a great game, but it does have a steep learning curve. My main advice: focus on interaction and RP. If you get bored and can't find anything to do, it's better to log off than just go exploring or adventuring. Once you get some interaction and join a group, then things become much better. It's a steep learning curve, and having some support helps. Also try to contact a helper on the General Discussion Board (or there may be some ingame method to do so these days... not sure). The reason I was able to finally succeed in the game was that a veteran player I knew helped me along with advice and encouragement OOC.

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Old 10-08-2010, 05:50 PM   #182
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Atonement supports a very detailed, non-linear storyline that is spread over Wikipedia Documentation, Short Stories and many, many logs of major in-game events on the website. It's always my wish that new players come prepared to the game, to help ease the learning curve that exists for all RPIs; by throwing its name out there now, I'm hopeful that new folks will come with a firm understanding of the gameworld by the time we re-open this Fall. Part of what makes a veteran a veteran on an RPI is that they have been around long enough to absorb the intricacies of the gameworld and its canon; encouraging potential new players to read before they leap is an effort to help make it easier for them to become veteran players of the future.

On another note, I'll repeat what I think that I said a long time ago; I don't really care who calls their game an RPI. I think that it has the potential to confuse a large niche of players who have preconceived notions about what an 'RPI' should be, but the name of your game is ultimately not much more than the cover sheet of its marketing plan. IRE claims to have the most in-depth roleplay and complex player-killing in the universe; just because I heartily disagree with this statement does not mean that they don't have the right to advertise whatever they would like to help bring folks to their games. When I first started playing IRE, I quit shortly after I realized that it was not what I thought that it was going to be; if a player is looking for a new RPI and plays a game calling itself an RPI that doesn't fit their pre-conceived notions, they will either be happy with the game or unhappy with their expectations not being met. It's not a judgement on which approach to design is better, in my mind. Players can make up their own minds, and it's simply not something that deserves to be continually argued over.
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:41 PM   #183
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

This is quite the thread, and you'll have to forgive me if this has been covered already and point me in the direction to where it was discussed.

Near the beginning (of the thread not the universe ) it was mentioned that the best RPI's of today are nothing compared to the worst RPI's of the past. What exactly is meant by this? Is it in regards to coded features or the caliber of RP? Can anyone give any specific examples of what a good RPI looked like years ago compared to the not so great RPI of today?

Thanks!
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:10 PM   #184
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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This is quite the thread, and you'll have to forgive me if this has been covered already and point me in the direction to where it was discussed.

Near the beginning (of the thread not the universe ) it was mentioned that the best RPI's of today are nothing compared to the worst RPI's of the past. What exactly is meant by this? Is it in regards to coded features or the caliber of RP? Can anyone give any specific examples of what a good RPI looked like years ago compared to the not so great RPI of today?

Thanks!
Staff who understood the game world
Staff who were capable of running RPTs
Staff who were willing to run RPTs
Players who understood the game world
Higher standards for RP
Greater enforcement of IC setting
Greater enforcement of OOC rules
Less tolerance of H&Sers
Less tolerance of twinks
Less tolerance of players who are unwilling to learn and/or adapt to the setting
Less emphasis on playerbase numbers and greater emphasis on the above

Those are just a quick few off the top of my head.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:16 PM   #185
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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Staff who understood the game world
Staff who were capable of running RPTs
Staff who were willing to run RPTs
Players who understood the game world
Higher standards for RP
Greater enforcement of IC setting
Greater enforcement of OOC rules
Less tolerance of H&Sers
Less tolerance of twinks
Less tolerance of players who are unwilling to learn and/or adapt to the setting
Less emphasis on playerbase numbers and greater emphasis on the above

Those are just a quick few off the top of my head.
Just to note, I definitely disagree that this is true for ALL new RPIs. For Atonement, I believe that precisely the opposite is true for most of these points.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:30 PM   #186
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

So then I assume there is not general agreement then that the "Best" RPI's of today are worse of then the lowest caliber of RPIs of the past?
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:33 PM   #187
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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So then I assume there is not general agreement then that the "Best" RPI's of today are worse of then the lowest caliber of RPIs of the past?
Yeah, I'd say that that is correct. Beyond regards towards points involving subject things, such as the quality of staff or roleplay, the quality of code and features on Atonement - and SOI/ARM, to a lesser degree - is unquestionably improved these days.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:34 PM   #188
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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So then I assume there is not general agreement then that the "Best" RPI's of today are worse of then the lowest caliber of RPIs of the past?
Only if you think Prof is credible. I think he's not. I have played an RPI for about eight years, and in some ways it is better and in some ways it is worse, but over all, people are still showing up and playing hard.

Eight years ago, we still had random idiots behaving idiotically.

When I was in the military we had a saying: The best duty station is the one you're going to, and the one you just left.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:37 PM   #189
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Besides that, even if it were true, that everything was wonderful and perfect at the muds the detractors played at when they played at them, and they're all crap now, unless you can time travel, what difference does it make? You can play what's available or not play at all.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:43 PM   #190
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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Besides that, even if it were true, that everything was wonderful and perfect at the muds the detractors played at when they played at them, and they're all crap now, unless you can time travel, what difference does it make? You can play what's available or not play at all.
Agreed just trying to get a feel for what exactly it is that makes people feel they're so much worse off these days...and I guess in the end people are referring to the quality of RP and staff contribution to enhancement of the RP experience. Is that about the jist of it?
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:44 PM   #191
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

That is the jist of it.
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:02 PM   #192
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

I have to say I've really only played on 2 MU*s ever. The one I'm currently playing on, Harshlands, and a very old now defunct MUSH called Atlantis that I probably played on about 10 or so years ago. The one thing I loved about it was the even though its player base was small it was more than made up for by the admins, and as far as I could tell there were only 2. What I loved is that I could see if they were available for RP purposes using the +who, were as on Harshlands admins never appear on the who so I have no idea if anyone is available to be petitioned for RP.

Don't get me wrong I really like the MUD so far, but in my mind it doesn't compare yet to Atlantis. I loved the fact to that if I wanted to do something that wasn't hard coded in the admins would do a skill check and see what the results were from there. One example was that I had fairly high level skill in electronics, or something of that nature, and there were 2 pirates wanted with a reward for anyone that could bring them in. There weren't any tracking devices programmed into the game so I petitioned an admin based on my skills to create a tracking device which I planted on one of the pirates. I also converted one of the torpedoes into a bomb so I could destroy their sumbarine at the dock, then I was collaborating as best I could with one of the main police force captains. I had both sides convinced I was on their side, but the captain didn't know I had infiltrated and was on friendly terms with them.

We all somehow ended up in one room together myself and the two pirates were in there at first, then the police captain came an and one of the pirates pulled his gun on the captain, the captain pulled his gun, then both sides were telling me to pull out my gun and point it at the other side and soon everyone had a gun pointed at each other.

...In the end one of the pirates escaped, the other was captured - he went on trial and was put to death and the other pirate came in a day or two later to the lounge I was at with a bomb strapped to his chest and commited suicide attempting to take me with him, which he wasn't succesful at.

It was really exciting and great fun which I've yet to be able to replicate on another MU*
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:14 PM   #193
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

It's all numbers. It wasn't nearly as noticeable Fifi because the playerbases were much smaller back in the day. Therefore new players were given far more attention by the veterans of the mud and were able to learn. Instead nowadays the new players are teaching the new players. So the playerbase as a whole develops bad habits and it permeates into the staff ranks as well because.. well staff come from the pbase. That's my logic anyway.
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:52 PM   #194
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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Only if you think Prof is credible. I think he's not. I have played an RPI for about eight years, and in some ways it is better and in some ways it is worse, but over all, people are still showing up and playing hard.

Eight years ago, we still had random idiots behaving idiotically.

When I was in the military we had a saying: The best duty station is the one you're going to, and the one you just left.
It all comes down to several factors. First, the question has to be asked if you've even played an RPI before given the degree of abuse to which the term is subject to by various games (coincidently beginning about eight years ago). Can't tell you how many times people have commented on RPIs without having ever even played one. Even if you have, if you've only been playing RPIs for eight years then you started as they were beginning to go downhill.

Second, you have to have been involved enough, knowledgeable enough and experienced enough to recognize a decline. Limited knowledge, experience and involvement might not see that which someone with far more of each would. My perspective comes from my experiences with RPIs as a player starting in 1999 and as an admin starting in 2004 as well as from conversations with a variety of players and admins whose experience predates mine by many years.

Finally, there's the need for objective observation. To players playing a game, there's an emotional attachment which has to be removed from the equation before an assessment is likely to carry any accuracy. It's difficult to do, especially with MUDs where loyalty tends to cloud people's impression of their game or other games. My overwhelming cynicism tends to counter that a bit but I'd be lying if I said I didn't once have a higher opinion of the RPIs than I do today. Over time I learned more and more about them and saw more and more problems with them. While I still think they have incredible potential, my overall view of them is no where near as positive as it once was.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:35 PM   #195
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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So then I assume there is not general agreement then that the "Best" RPI's of today are worse of then the lowest caliber of RPIs of the past?
No there's not a general agreement. However, I suspect that the vast majority of the "it's just as good" camp does not have the perspective from which to make any valid assessment. If someone does not have data either from direct observation or research from which to understand what was from what is they can not be expected to make an accurate comparison and assessment regarding the differences between the past and present.

You cite Harshlands. While I can't comment on the game today via direct observation, I can from as recent as last year from several friends who played it until then. When I first started playing in 1999 I was impressed with everything but its playerbase size which was extremely small. After a couple years holding at the same levels, the game picked up more and more over players but my observation of them was that a lot of them were of a lower quality than those I'd encountered prior. By 2004 and 2005 I noticed a distinct influx of players that, to put it nicely, sucked. By the time I left in 2007 my view of Harshlands was quite low. Likewise, I learned more about the operation on the staff side and saw more and more examples of things like favoritism. With that knowledge, I was able to look back on the previous 8 years of experience with the game and see the evidence of it that at the time had escaped my notice. This most certainly did nothing to boost my impression of the game.

Following a series of completely unacceptable events involving players who had no business on the game (my experience with these players was not the first; I have no fewer than four prior examples of similar behavior by them either through my direct observation or from accounts by others) I left the game as did a couple other people who equally found the events unacceptable. A few others stuck with it for a months or years longer but most eventually quit as well, citing the decline in the playerbase and the problems with staff behavior as the cause.

Hence my perspective on the quality of the game is the result of multiple avenues of observation and data. The conclusions of this observation and analysis of information left me with a very negative view of the game. To put it in numeric terms, if my best exprience with the game was say 95 out of 100, by the time I left I would have given it something in the low 30s. From friends who continued to play after I and others left in 2007, it sounds like it only got worse especially since many of the players who were responsible for the shreds of respect that I still had for the game have since left as well. I have very little data from after 2009 because those friends eventually threw in the towel on the game as well. Conversations with former staff and players from the years prior to my playing the game revealed that the seeds of what I finally experienced were already germinating even before I started playing but that they only grew more and more pronounced on the player side of the game over time.

Now, to a player who didn't have either the experience of playing the game long enough or the willingness to step back and observe rather than blindly remain blissfully ignorant, none of that would be apparent. I didn't see it all when a couple players left before I did though their observations made me more attentive and it was then that I did begin to see the problems on the staff side. I had long been observing the problems on the player side since I tend to be a stickler in regard to player responsibilities be it in regard to knowledge of the game world or adherence to the setting, etc. (I was a harsh twink-buster during my time on SoI's staff).

That's just the case with Harshlands. My observations are not limited to that game alone but to nearly every RPI that ever opened (I'm excluding a few that only opened for beta testing). I'd wager that most if not all of the players who don't see the decline in quality on both sides of the RPIs fit the above statement regarding lack of experience or unwillingness to observe.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:36 PM   #196
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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A few posts goes on about soft fiction and magic etc., etc. (Which isn't really at all close the question posed in the OP.
I dislike soft fiction settings, so that definitely turns me off from most RP MUDs, which was the generic question in the OP.

The dismissive attitude toward the concept of hard and soft fiction by you and prof is interesting. I can only assume that Armageddon's game world and game physics are soft as the game is inspired by Dark Sun. The softer the fiction the more lore is required to be learned by heart as, with increasing softness, logic becomes increasingly useless.

An illusion of hardness can be perceived if enough people belief in the same nonsense (the belief in God is a good rl example where soft illogical fiction can be perceived as reality), which would explain why the loss of veterans is a big problem; as veterans can be compared to priest who teach people the right way to interpret the vague or incomplete scriptures, help files in this case.

Then again, I guess there's nothing that stops RP from getting intense in an unrealistic and inconsistent roleplaying environment, but that kind of obsoletes the RPI concept. Perhaps all you really need is a bunch of nazis in charge who keep the players in check.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:51 PM   #197
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

I would prefer nazi's keeping the players in check rather than giving players complete freedom to do whatever they want. Roleplaying needs to be defined on an RPI, it can't be loosely interpreted because you don't want to 'offend' players. Tough love so to speak.
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:32 AM   #198
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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Agreed just trying to get a feel for what exactly it is that makes people feel they're so much worse off these days...and I guess in the end people are referring to the quality of RP and staff contribution to enhancement of the RP experience. Is that about the jist of it?
I staffed on and played Armageddon for years. I suspect that the source of much of the "RPIs have gone downhill" argument is based in nostalgia, not empirical evidence or even reality. That being said, I don't play at all anymore, so I admit that I can't speak from experience. I do occasionally read the Armageddon discussion boards, and it doesn't appear that much has changed judging from the, admittedly inadequate, snapshot of the boards.

And prof: FiFi plays on Armageddon, I believe.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:12 AM   #199
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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I staffed on and played Armageddon for years. I suspect that the source of much of the "RPIs have gone downhill" argument is based in nostalgia, not empirical evidence or even reality. That being said, I don't play at all anymore, so I admit that I can't speak from experience. I do occasionally read the Armageddon discussion boards, and it doesn't appear that much has changed judging from the, admittedly inadequate, snapshot of the boards.

And prof: FiFi plays on Armageddon, I believe.
Well I just took a peak and now you can't play slaves anymore. If you enslave PCs they are instantly stored? That doesn't sound much like the old days. Back in the day if you were enslaved you dealt with it. Sure you could choose to retire the PC but most players wouldn't do that and would go with whatever happens ICly.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:54 AM   #200
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Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

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Well I just took a peak and now you can't play slaves anymore. If you enslave PCs they are instantly stored? That doesn't sound much like the old days. Back in the day if you were enslaved you dealt with it. Sure you could choose to retire the PC but most players wouldn't do that and would go with whatever happens ICly.
The slave role has always been problematic, and there have been issues with it off and on for years. It's not the first time that the slave role has been taken off the table, so it's not like this is some new sign of the degradation of RP. You also seem to be missing the harshness as much as the RP quality.

I definitely agree that Armageddon has gotten less harsh as time has gone on. There was a time when twinks ran around killing people randomly while chalking it up to "RP." Complaints about said twinkiness to staff were dealt with through a response of, "It's a harsh world. Get over it." This doesn't mean that the RP quality was better back then, though.
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