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Old 10-15-2011, 05:15 PM   #1
Phelan
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LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

One thing I've always found a little irritating at best about most MUDs (and MMO'RPG's of course and, to be fair, even most PnP RPGs) is that you start out as an 18-25-year-old more or less naked whimp who can barely kill the usual rat/cat/whatever, and sometimes just half a year later single-handedly defeats a dragon.
Of course there has to be a development, but that doesn't mean it has to be about increasing the same stats and fighting/magic/... skills by a few points over and over, that simply encourages grinding. I've had my best PnP-experiences in groups where the characters were pretty good from the beginning already, and just got a little better, and in most cases mainly more versatile over time. Shadowrun is one example, but starting on a fantasy world not at level 1, but 10/20/... (depending on the chosen system). Or if you know it, look at EVE Online, the development there is IHMO a step in the right direction as well, versatility instead of a single 'strand' along which to improve.
The possibility to start being good in a few areas, or exceptional in one or two (and I mean 'good' as in most characters who don't specilize in this will at best get 10-20% better in time, if at all), quite often means you can focus on actually playing instead of grinding to get to that point where you want your character's abilities to be.

So, to get to the point, does anyone know a MUD (ideally with roleplaying allowed or encouraged, but not enforced) that allows you to start with a relatively 'powerful' character already who can develop 'sideways' instead of just getting better at fighting, casting spells or whatever?
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:45 PM   #2
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Well since you mentioned Shadowrun, I'll recommend Deckeon. Some new character builds can kick serious butt right out of the gate. It is RP Enforced though, but try it. You just might like it.
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:06 AM   #3
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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Well since you mentioned Shadowrun, I'll recommend Deckeon. Some new character builds can kick serious butt right out of the gate. It is RP Enforced though, but try it. You just might like it.
Right, that suppressed memory of SR MUDs... I played one for a little while and peeked into another (was Deckeon the one where you had to submit a full background of your char before you even got a login?), that's definitely not what I'm looking for. I wouldn't even call the one I played 'roleplaying enforced' but rather 'chatroom RP with fixed code', worst environment I can think of to play At least in regular chat, you can bend the rules or do something MUD code wouldn't allow (or would require efford of a coder, which will probably be denied for some reason or other)
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:37 AM   #4
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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Right, that suppressed memory of SR MUDs... I played one for a little while and peeked into another (was Deckeon the one where you had to submit a full background of your char before you even got a login?), that's definitely not what I'm looking for. I wouldn't even call the one I played 'roleplaying enforced' but rather 'chatroom RP with fixed code', worst environment I can think of to play At least in regular chat, you can bend the rules or do something MUD code wouldn't allow (or would require efford of a coder, which will probably be denied for some reason or other)
Those both sound pretty MUSH like to me. We do require a description and background at some point but polite inquiries don't generally start until you've been playing for 10 hours or so and don't bar you from doing anything except using a custom short desc, voice and being added to peoples introduction lists.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:37 AM   #5
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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Those both sound pretty MUSH like to me. We do require a description and background at some point but polite inquiries don't generally start until you've been playing for 10 hours or so and don't bar you from doing anything except using a custom short desc, voice and being added to peoples introduction lists.
Sorry, I took a look, but I guess I've played way too much SR (with rather massive houserules) to bother with a platform that offers rather few options (priority-based chargen, just basic physad powers and equipment, 'weakened' starting resources, rather limited spell-list as well, ...) One of the great aspects of SR is the balance between complexity and playability (which could be shifted to completxity on a computer game - dice-rolls and calculations take far less time for example -, but I'm definitely not interested if it gets less complex
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:26 AM   #6
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

You might want to check out ConQUEST. From a recent review:

"Tired of the repetitive grind for levels and and such and looking for a more indepth, skill-based game I got extremely lucky.

conQUEST doesn't have as much vertical growth, however it's spans horizontally indefinitely."
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:34 AM   #7
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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You might want to check out ConQUEST. From a recent review:

"Tired of the repetitive grind for levels and and such and looking for a more indepth, skill-based game I got extremely lucky.

conQUEST doesn't have as much vertical growth, however it's spans horizontally indefinitely."
The review does sound promising, but I have two issues with it.. The stats and/or combat skills have a fixed total advancement limit of 30 points, which can be redistributed at any time. Horrible system for roleplaying I'd say. Plus, the increasing versatility is only in the crafting system - sounds like after some initial grinding to get those 30 points, you just shift the combat stats around for whatever you're planning next and train crafting skills (I've stumbled over a "what's the ultimate build" thread on the forum... DEFINITELY the wrong approach again if you ask me, that's precisely where real versatility would kick in)
Second... well, a pretty discouraging start:
...
Varo is here, ready to train you about combat. [?]
HINT: You should greet varo to speak with him further.
>greet varo
You greet Varo.
Varo acknowledges you and responds: [...]
Responses:
1) What is my first lesson, Varo?
2) Goodbye
>say What is my first lesson, Varo?
you say, 'What is my first lesson, Varo?'
(nothing)
>ask varo What is my first lesson, Varo?
(nothing)
>south
You cannot proceed until you have spoken to Varo again.

Feels like a broken newbie area, not a good thing to attract new players (and no, there wasn't a single other player online whom I could have asked)
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:31 PM   #8
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Well I'm afraid that's the only mud I can think of that fits your requirements. While outward/sideways advancement sounds great in theory, in practice (as I also mentioned here) I've found it doesn't work very well as the sole means of improvement; most players like to feel they're getting bigger and stronger, it gives them a feeling of progress and a sense of investment in their character, greatly increasing the chances of them hanging around - which (particularly in this day and age) is essential if the mud wants its playerbase to grow.

You can also give players a feeling of progress and a sense of investment in their characters through storylines and roleplaying, and I've seen a few muds where that was very much the focus - but they were all heavily RP-enforced.

Finally there are the more casual/social muds, typically those in the TinyMUD family (MUSHes, MUCKs, etc). But you've said you're "definitely not interested if it gets less complex", and those muds often tend to be very light on hardcoded mechanics.

I suppose you could look for muds that allow you to reach maximum level/power in a relatively short period of time. But those usually tend to be PK muds without any roleplaying.
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Old 10-17-2011, 05:33 PM   #9
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Well, sideways doesn't have to mean you don't get better in one general direction. For combat, it could mean that you get more options during fights. A swing with an axe will always be a swing with an axe, if you're strong enough to handle it, if you hit, depending on where you hit, it'll severely injure or kill another person unless they're heavily armoured. No matter if you've trained axe-swinging for a month or ten years - you can mainly make up for more defensive actions, but the 'damage' will be the same. Now, train some bashing with the handle of the axe. The swing stays the same - no further improvement there -, but you have one more option in your battles (it would have to be 'usable', no sense in training something like a handle-bash if the game mechanics only turn it into a very weak swing of the axe obviously)
It's just an example, but it should give an idea of what I mean. If you absolutely want to be a pure fighter, you should be able to train just fighting skills and become a better fighter overall, but if you find yourself in an unarmed tavern-brawl with someone who has no training with regular weapons, but lots of experience with brawls like that, you'll be an even match since you can't profit of the 'sideways training' with axes.

(Also, forgot to mention it in my response to ConQUEST - it looks like you again start out as a naked whimp )

About the 'no interest if it becomes less complex' - that was meant explicitly for Shadowrun
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:30 AM   #10
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

As I mentioned in the thread I linked to previously, by outward/sideways advancement I mean systems where you gain more options without more power. This also fits with your earlier comment about characters becoming "mainly more versatile over time".

However your latest post seems be talking more about non-linear advancement, such as pure skill-based systems. If that's the case, the RPI muds like Harshlands, Armageddon and Atonement sound like a good fit from a mechanics perspective - the downside is that they are also heavily RP-enforced. Unless that's a total deal-breaker, I'd suggest at least giving them a look.

Starting off as a naked wimp, fighting slugs and rats, is also one of my pet peeves - I remember once playing a mud where my level 3 vampire mage had the stuffing kicked out of him by a "plump turkey". Another time I tried a mud that claimed to be RP-oriented, in which fighting a single mosquito proved challenging for a trained human warrior.

Characters in my mud start with appropriate gear - a bloodguard starts with a suit of bloodsteel platemail and a weapon that gains strength from the blood of those it injures; a dragon rider starts with a full set of dragonscale armour and a dragonbone weapon, and can freely summon drakes to serve as mounts; a nightblade starts with shadowcloth clothing and can conjure ghostly blades of elemental darkness; a samurai starts with a full set of themed armour, along with a katana, wakizashi and tanto hanging from their belt, and a naginata strapped across their back. And so on.

But power is relative. A starting character is indeed powerful compared to a mortal human - they can tear through villagers and town watchmen with relative ease, they can slay mountain lions and grizzly bears, and overcome a variety of monsters. But the player characters aren't normal humans, they're gods, and the more souls they absorb the more powerful they become. So yes, players can eventually defeat dragons - in fact, many of them are dragons.

So the point I'm making is that you have to view the starting character within the context of the mud. Those playing my mud may think they're starting out as tough guys when they compare themselves to human and animal mobs, but compared to the top players (some of whom are 40+ foot tall titans, or ancient dragons, or powerful demon lords, etc) and the supernatural opponents those players face, they are extremely puny.

Perhaps you start out as a "naked wimp" on ConQUEST, but the established characters won't be much stronger, relatively speaking. From my limited experience of Harshlands, it seems that the RPIs are similar (although perhaps someone who's played them for more than a few hours could give a more informed view).

But if you don't mind "less complex", I think you may find your best bet is to have a look through the various MUSHes, MUCKs and MOOs to see if any of them appeal to you.
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Old 10-18-2011, 12:15 PM   #11
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Well, from my experience, "heavily RP-enforced" usually means that you can't do much on your own, that the code simply doesn't give you much to do (maybe explore the environment and find or buy some stuff, maybe even craft something if you have the skills, but no or very few possibilities of 'interaction' with NPCs, including fights; or maybe you can fight, but won't get anything out of it because any relevant XP are awarded by GMs) I've tried three games along those lines, they all had the problem with the core members insisting on their style of play, a different approach wasn't welcome
So yeah, unless you know for certain that on an RP-enforced MUD, you can play outside the 'established style' and advance, I'm only interested in RP-allowed or -encouraged ones.

As for the relativity of a character's power, I understand the concept of wanting to be all that much "better" than a fresh char after playing for a year or more, but why does it have to be THAT big a difference? A lot of players are just used to the idea thanks to most fantasy RPGs (and of course games like WoW) and don't really know other systems. It's more a conditioning to the instant satisfaction aspect of advancing one more level and getting better at everything.
That's why I mentioned Shadowrun, it's one of the few systems I know of that has a noticeably shallower powercurve (WoD games like Vampire are other examples). Sure, after ten years of regular play (or a couple of months with the GM dishing out extremely high rewards), you'll be at a point where you can beat a fresh character in every aspect. But until then, you'll be lacking in at least one area, be it magic (defense for non-magical chars), social skills like negotiation, ranged combat, melee, stealth, ... (and, not to forget, with the exception of extremely powerful people, which any reasonable GM won't allow as player-chars, ANYONE can be killed by a suicide killer, even a 500 year-old vampire; in most cases, a lone sniper can do so)
Of course, random kills need to be discouraged in some way, be it only a small death penalty and the revenge of the victim, or preferrably something more roleplay-related (randomly kill someone and you'll be hunted down, NPCs will be hostile to you, ...; obviously, there needs to be a method to prevent a 'create char, kill, delete char, create new one' circle from griefers, but that isn't hard to do)
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:15 PM   #12
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

I think what you're asking for would be a very hard sell, even in the non-commercial world of MUDs.

As I think KaVir mentioned before, vertical development is used to give everyone, even unsophisticated thinkers, a clear sense that they're progressing. But vertical development is no more than a 'ticker', a numeric measure of how much time you've invested.

In the meantime, what you call horizontal development is always the only real development taking place--i. e. learning how to interact with the world more effectively, how to lead and play in a team, how to contribute to the game, etc.

By comparison to pretty much any other type of game, MUDs already have a super-wide horizontal development axis. Most of them can easily keep you learning for a decade. But what you seem to be asking for is a diminished vertical axis (to match your sharp sense of realism) and an even broader horizontal one (two decades, maybe three?).

In short, I think the closest game to what you're looking for is called 'life'.
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:53 PM   #13
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Heh, only in that game called 'life', you can't go hunt some trolls or throw fireballs with a wink of your hand or fly your own spaceship, while in the appropriate MUDs, you can. Only, in most MUDs, you'll need at least a month before you can do any of these, and a year later, you wouldn't even take a second look at any of the opponents/spells/ships you 'did' after a month, because they won't pose even a bit of a challenge anymore. (Point of interest - why do MUD-creators so often cut into their own flesh and make the things uninteresting for players after a while? Wasted efford..)
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:40 PM   #14
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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Heh, only in that game called 'life', you can't go hunt some trolls or throw fireballs with a wink of your hand or fly your own spaceship, while in the appropriate MUDs, you can. Only, in most MUDs, you'll need at least a month before you can do any of these, and a year later, you wouldn't even take a second look at any of the opponents/spells/ships you 'did' after a month, because they won't pose even a bit of a challenge anymore. (Point of interest - why do MUD-creators so often cut into their own flesh and make the things uninteresting for players after a while? Wasted efford..)
I think looking for a game that is challenging past the first year is not a hopeless quest, and I'm a bit surprised you haven't found any. You just have to look for signals that there are clear long-term goals and the gameplay doesn't pull any punches. And/or you can look for games that seem to be developed very actively - so that even if the gameplay is fairly easy, changes and additions compel you to look for new strategies.

I don't think any MUD creator tries to make things uninteresting to mid- and late-career players. It's just that some games choose to cater to more casual tastes, and it's generally a lot easier to provide short-term goals. When/if they do get around to thinking about long-term goals, many are tempted to extend the vertical axis (add 100 more levels, remort/multi-class) rather than the horizontal, which requires new content and is therefore harder to pull off.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:27 PM   #15
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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I think looking for a game that is challenging past the first year is not a hopeless quest, and I'm a bit surprised you haven't found any. You just have to look for signals that there are clear long-term goals and the gameplay doesn't pull any punches. And/or you can look for games that seem to be developed very actively - so that even if the gameplay is fairly easy, changes and additions compel you to look for new strategies.

I don't think any MUD creator tries to make things uninteresting to mid- and late-career players. It's just that some games choose to cater to more casual tastes, and it's generally a lot easier to provide short-term goals. When/if they do get around to thinking about long-term goals, many are tempted to extend the vertical axis (add 100 more levels, remort/multi-class) rather than the horizontal, which requires new content and is therefore harder to pull off.
I wasn't talking about lack of challenge in the long run, I was talking about tha fact that challenges you encounter after a week or month aren't any challenge at all anymore after a year. Remember - we're talking about a 20 year old character (or so) who probably hasn't just been living in his mother's basement, but who has 'lived' in an apparently relatively hostile world. But he still gets killed by a single rat. After a week of suddenly learning how to fight rats (which, of course, he didn't learn before for some reason), he can take on a goblin or two, albeit barely. Six months later, ten other goblins of the same tribe see him again and think, hey, he beat two of our warriors, but easy prey now that we're more - and they get wiped away with a single backswing of his bare hand. (just an example obviously, but I hope you get my point)
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:15 AM   #16
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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I wasn't talking about lack of challenge in the long run, I was talking about tha fact that challenges you encounter after a week or month aren't any challenge at all anymore after a year.
It's to encourage people to move on to new challenges. If players had no incentive to leave Newbieville, they'd just stay there, killing the same old rats and worms, over and over - and that's when it starts feeling like a grind.

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Remember - we're talking about a 20 year old character (or so) who probably hasn't just been living in his mother's basement, but who has 'lived' in an apparently relatively hostile world. But he still gets killed by a single rat.
Yeah I agree it's silly to die to a rat, but that's really a cosmetic issue. You could rename the rats "bandits" without changing the underlying system - kill X, get stronger, move on to Y, get stronger, move on to Z. This is a tried-and-true way of getting players to gradually advance through all the content, one step at a time, so they feel as if they're making progress without being overwhelmed with too much at once. Most tabletop roleplaying games work this way as well - even in the World of Darkness games you mentioned, players typically face stronger challenges as they progress in order to give them a sense of achievement.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:50 AM   #17
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Quote:
I think looking for a game that is challenging past the first year is not a hopeless quest, and I'm a bit surprised you haven't found any. You just have to look for signals that there are clear long-term goals and the gameplay doesn't pull any punches. And/or you can look for games that seem to be developed very actively - so that even if the gameplay is fairly easy, changes and additions compel you to look for new strategies.
I agree, and would say that in fact it's far from hopeless. There are a lot of games that are challenging past the first year. There's probably half a dozen muds on the first two pages of mudstats.com that would fit that bill, even if you're being pessimistic. The median player age on Alter Aeon is approximately a year, even though we're in a big growth phase, and ignoring character restarts (which resets the character creation date.)

Quote:
I don't think any MUD creator tries to make things uninteresting to mid- and late-career players. It's just that some games choose to cater to more casual tastes, and it's generally a lot easier to provide short-term goals.
On Alter Aeon, we've tried very hard to make the initial gameplay simple and easy to learn. The complexity gradually ramps up as you gain levels, when you start needing secondary classes more.

In a lot of ways, 'emergent' behavior is a large part of how AA stays interesting. There are so many options and interrelated skills/spells that people are always finding new or unusual ways to get things done. There is also a cultural element - if a player finds a way to do something more effectively, it's usually something to be congratulated instead of 'fixed' (extreme cases aside.) We don't try to force players to play the game "as the gods intended". As builders, we provide the world, and largely let the players make of it what they will.

Quote:
When/if they do get around to thinking about long-term goals, many are tempted to extend the vertical axis (add 100 more levels, remort/multi-class) rather than the horizontal, which requires new content and is therefore harder to pull off.
What you describe here is one of the most difficult concepts for players to understand. No player will play forever; no amount of content can hold a player's interest forever; remorting won't fix a boredom problem. Each addition to hold a high level player's interest has an expiration time, after which another addition is required, and another. By their nature, these high level, powerful additions can dramatically impact gameplay, and even crater the game completely.

Over the years, I have resisted countless calls to add mechanics to "reduce boredom". Remorting might gain us a few months, at the cost of a player power increase; races would gain very little, unless the race system was comprehensive enough to be considered new content; quickly adding more levels would just result in more powerful players, buying a couple of months at most, at the cost of drastically increased player power.

Instead, we have tried to focus on areas and game content. We have 196 visible "endgame" areas, each averaging about 90 rooms. This has been a much more effective way to assauge boredom than simply adding high level spells and skills.

None of the above is to say that one can completely ignore high level mechanics - rather, I wish to say that one must be slow, methodical, and careful when implementing them. Raising the level limit is a good example - since 2006, we've raised the max level from 31 to 35, at a rate of about one level every year and a half. This allows us to really take a good look at what each expansion gives, address the problems, and help ensure sanity for the next. We've also got new classes in the pipeline, but we expect those to also be separated by years of development time. Rash decisions and long term goals do not go well together.

-dentin

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Old 10-19-2011, 01:29 PM   #18
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phelan View Post
I wasn't talking about lack of challenge in the long run, I was talking about tha fact that challenges you encounter after a week or month aren't any challenge at all anymore after a year. Remember - we're talking about a 20 year old character (or so) who probably hasn't just been living in his mother's basement, but who has 'lived' in an apparently relatively hostile world. But he still gets killed by a single rat. After a week of suddenly learning how to fight rats (which, of course, he didn't learn before for some reason), he can take on a goblin or two, albeit barely. Six months later, ten other goblins of the same tribe see him again and think, hey, he beat two of our warriors, but easy prey now that we're more - and they get wiped away with a single backswing of his bare hand. (just an example obviously, but I hope you get my point)
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Heh, only in that game called 'life', you can't go hunt some trolls or throw fireballs with a wink of your hand or fly your own spaceship, while in the appropriate MUDs, you can.
Every individual comes with a unique set of conditions under which they are prepared to suspend their disbelief. It's not so much a sliding scale from purple unicorns to perma-death as it is a collection of random peeves informed by your lifetime experience and, maybe, some natural likes and dislikes. You may think that your collection of preferences "makes sense", except (in your own words) you're turned off by a 20-year-old dying at the hands of a rat while you're perfectly comfortable with instant fireballs. For others, it will be the exact opposite.

The point is that everyone has to compromise on some level to be able to play the same game, or any game at all. The ability to compromise wears off over the years. I've seen many LFM posts by long-time mudders who draw so many lines in the sand that even in the huge world of MUDs they manage to cut themselves off completely. I was being serious when I recommended looking elsewhere in life for entertainment. Either that, or start creating your own MUD.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:47 PM   #19
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

Okay, I'll try to clarify a few points, including why I tried MUDs to find what I'm looking for.

Yes, I know that some vertical advancement is practically necessary. (And, sorry to say, but that eliminates ConQUEST for me - that rearragement system feels too much like an endgame thing where you can't advance anymore in one major area) But, judging from the relatively high popularity of games like EVE Online and Shadowrun, it doesn't have to be a steep powercurve, it can be enough if you only get some 20-40% better, and maybe another 10-20% with a LOT of efford/time/focus. Those games are usually a good bit more complex and don't cater to the instant gratification seekers, but there obviously are still enough players out there who haven't fallen for that or have outgrown it. Possibly for the reason dentin hinted at - if a game's main attraction is the vertical advancement of "kill A so you'll get better and kill B, then kill B so you'll get better and kill C", you'll sooner or later end up at Z, and you'll be done because your main attraction has come to an end.

I'd love to find something even remotely similar to what I'm looking for in 'other areas of life', but the only options are pen-and-paper RP (not a valid option anymore for me sadly) and some form of computer game.
So, going with the latter, I searched and stumbled over several posts in forums about the same ideas, so I know that I'm not the only one. Most posts were about MMO(RP)Gs, and I can fully understand the financial pressure to pull as big a playerbase as possible, meaning exactly all those instant gratification seekers that are fine with grinding away to advance one more level or find that one weapon that'll give them another 5% advantage. Small chance to find a game that costs at least several million and might very well only find a tiny playerbase. That's why I tried MU*es - there are dozens with just some 10-30 regular players and a level of detail that suggests it would just require a slight shift in the focus of the efford to put together a system I'm looking for.
(Oh, and though I've been programming for over a decade now, I know that I'm not one to put together anything like a MUD on my own or as 'project leader', I would at most help out another group with little tasks)
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:17 PM   #20
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Re: LF MUD with 'broadened' powercurve

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Originally Posted by Phelan View Post
I wasn't talking about lack of challenge in the long run, I was talking about tha fact that challenges you encounter after a week or month aren't any challenge at all anymore after a year. Remember - we're talking about a 20 year old character (or so) who probably hasn't just been living in his mother's basement, but who has 'lived' in an apparently relatively hostile world. But he still gets killed by a single rat.
Let me start by saying New Worlds Ateraan is NOT the type of game you prefaced at the beginning of this post. However, I'm of the opinion you don't really know the game you want, just one that is exciting, has roleplay, and is challenging for a long period.

You will find that NWA has a unique method of beginning, especially if you start in the South, which is very harsh, but gives you a very unique background history.

Because this game does have levels and methods of increasing that are not horizontal it may not be your cup of tea, however, the variances in such that you can be or do nearly anything with respect to roleplay, religion, politics, socialism, magic, and combat.

We require you to be an adult mature player here and the quality of gameplay is so good there are more players that have played on NWA since BETA than likely play on most MUDS (that's over 5 years). NWA has also gone through a massive playerwipe and still 100's have returned for more.

Play for a month and you won't even remember Shadowrun or Eve Online.
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