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Old 02-16-2012, 04:00 AM   #1
Orion
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The Key Element - RPI MUD's

The key element to any successful RPI MUD, is the ability for players to be able to sustain plots themselves without staff involvement. Staff should give the players the tools to do so, and
administrate rather than be controlling in other to allow the creativity of the players to be
expressed.

Do you agree or disagree?
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:22 AM   #2
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion View Post
The key element to any successful RPI MUD, is the ability for players to be able to sustain plots themselves without staff involvement. Staff should give the players the tools to do so, and
administrate rather than be controlling in other to allow the creativity of the players to be
expressed.

Do you agree or disagree?
I've never been part of an "RPI," but my games have always included high emphasis on RP, and I agree wholeheartedly that for a role-playing game to succeed the action has to be driven by the players. I believe that role-play is inherently composed of decision, action and consequence, and if the courses and outcomes of plot-lines are predetermined by the staff, it would be much more efficient for everyone reading them in email. I think that RP can be greatly enriched by staff interjection, but those efforts should remain in a purely supporting role.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:12 PM   #3
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

RPI players claim to hate staff control and staff running things, but that's not entirely honest. Players want attention, recognition, and to be unique and special, not just to muck around in the sandbox with everyone else, using the same things everyone else has to play around in the sand. When mud administration is involved, special powers, items, commands, scenery, world-changes, and whatever else can happen, not readily available to normal players. Sure, a mud can give all of this to normal players, but then the normal players are all just decorating and messing around with their tools, yearning for the mud administration to come along and do something even more special. The second a regular player just like you can do something, it becomes normal and unspecial. I'm not going to run to participate in a player-driven plot if I have the exact same abilities to run the same or a similar plot tomorrow and can change or unchange the world however I see fit.

I played this sandbox-style mud-mush hybrid for a bit awhile back. The game's really set up for player-run RP. Players make their own rooms and objects, as needed, to facilitate whatever they plan on having around to interact, and can change, destroy, or make new things whenever they need to. And they custom design every one of their character's attacks/abilities (i.e. the damage you do is based on a stat, but you write the text, so from an RP standpoint, you can have whatever special abilties are appropriate). So in essence, every player is sort of a mini-builder/staff, free to set up and change the mud however they'd like to run an RP plot. Additionally, every player was allowed to have an alternate "storyteller" type character, who has quasi-imm abilities to make room echoes, restricted areas (for people currently participating in the plot being run), mobs for people to fight and interact iwth, and see the skills/stats of other players (who give him permission), so the guy running the plot could, for example, send a special private echo about something only people with acute hearing noticed. I think this mud, as great and flexible as all of the features are, still hovers at about 3 people who play it. Most players don't want to be builders and storytellers. They want a game that's easy to get into and play, with active staff that recognizes their awesome rp and gives them speical stuff nobody else gets. Then, they complain that they're bored the rest of the time waiting around for the mud administration to make special things happen, and when the administration does do something, they complain that they didn't have enough control as a player over how things went.
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:55 PM   #4
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Snow: I know exactly what you're saying about folks wanting to be treated specially, and then when they get what they want, wanting to be treated even more specially. It's human nature. The key is, as a much more wise and talented guy than I am put it, "...making the mundane amazing, not the amazing mundane." It can be done, but it's not easy.

The game you describe is an extreme of the case and definitely not the type of solution I would propose for the initial question. To me, there's a big difference between players driving the action of a scenario and players controlling their environment as they steer the course of a story. On one hand, players are considering facts and occurrences, making decisions and reaping rewards or dealing with consequences. On the other hand, players are creating places and objects, enhancing/changing their characters and otherwise altering the world to make things proceed as they see fit. There are many obvious reasons the latter strategy won't work, from bad writing to gross abuse, but in my experience, one of the biggest is obliteration of the fantasy. Once you've seen what's behind the curtain, when you've been in control of the stuff under the hood, nothing's ever the same. It's the difference between living a dream and pulling the divine strings that make it happen. Don't get me wrong; I've done both, and at this stage I prefer building games to playing them. But that's partly because, as a player, the magic just isn't there for me anymore.

So, what's the answer? In my mind, it's sort of a symbiotic relationship between players and the folks running the game. What they all want has to coincide. The goal of administrators has to be fun for the players and the goal of players has to be a growing, flourishing game. From the dev side of things, you can't just implement spectacular RP mechanics, advancement that's a means to an end and say, "Role-play like this or leave." You need a narrative giving players a history that encourages them to embrace roles within it--without dictating how those roles must be played. You need context that inspires action and leads to difficult questions but does not include guild, governmental or any other non-player characters to provide easy answers. You have to have a staff that understands the concept of supporting instead of leading, likes doing it and is around when it needs to happen. You need advancement mechanics that don't preclude RP, but instead invite folks to RP while they're advancing. I played a game a long time ago that did all of this very, very well, and it was a fricking blast. Unfortunately, its ownership insisted on charging folks to play, to the bitter end.

It takes some compromise on all sides, but it can be done.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:09 PM   #5
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

SnowTroll you posted:

"Then, they complain that they're bored the rest of the time waiting around for the mud administration to make special things happen, and when the administration does do something, they complain that they didn't have enough control as a player over how things went."

I've encountered this repeatedly on other RPI's I've played. The players just sit there waiting for the staff to put on an event. I really want them to do most of it themselves, but with staff assistance. I've created limits to what they can do without staff help, but they would still be able to form plots themselves. I don't know why that hasn't happened on the other RPI muds that I've played, whether they either fear their character dying through engaging in a plot, so just do social RP, or they're just lazy and have no real desire to develop their creative writing and instead just want to advance their character's abilities.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:37 PM   #6
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Will you posted:

"You need a narrative giving players a history that encourages them to embrace roles within it--without dictating how those roles must be played."

I have some roles in mind already, some good, some bad, to hopefully create conflict. That's actually worked fairly well on another MUD I played. I think conflict is essential, but it should be drawn out as long as possible.
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:06 PM   #7
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

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The players just sit there waiting for the staff to put on an event. I really want them to do most of it themselves, but with staff assistance. I've created limits to what they can do without staff help, but they would still be able to form plots themselves.
I won't hide that this particular topic is of great interest to me, and probably to a lot of RP mud players. How do you get a player to "start a plot" whatever that may mean, when the things a player can do without staff involvement, under a mud's code, are limited? I'm picturing some guy at town square forming an "adventuring party" and going into the forest area to kill goblins, trying to turn normal mob bashing into an "event," which got boring before I even finished typing the last clause, but you sound like you mean something more substantial than this.

What's the extra umph you're giving players that existing RP muds haven't done yet?
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:06 PM   #8
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

After 10 years of successful high quality large player base indepth enforced roleplaying (that was a mouthful), I can tell you that the Golden Rule of Roleplaying is as follows:

"Forget about yourself and your spotlight and focus entirely on the enjoyment of others around you whether the selfless roleplay is positive, negative, or neutral and you will have more fun and excitement during your interaction than you could ever find through any other method."

This goes for Administration and Staff as well. All events and roleplay should be for the benefit of no one and everyone.
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:10 AM   #9
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Newworlds that's an excellent rule. I completely agree.

SnowTroll you posted:

"I won't hide that this particular topic is of great interest to me, and probably to a lot of RP mud players. How do you get a player to "start a plot" whatever that may mean, when the things a player can do without staff involvement, under a mud's code, are limited? I'm picturing some guy at town square forming an "adventuring party" and going into the forest area to kill goblins, trying to turn normal mob bashing into an "event," which got boring before I even finished typing the last clause, but you sound like you mean something more substantial than this.
What's the extra umph you're giving players that existing RP muds haven't done yet?"

Here are a few things that I thing would help.

1. giving characters tangible objects that can be obtained, made, traded or stolen, most of which they would be able to make or find themselves via crafting or gathering skills. Desiring the possession of certain objects is often the sole motivation for a plot.
2. giving characters appropriate roleplay settings, and not just inn's. Places, private places, where different groups can meet and discuss their mutual goals.
3. allowing characters to sit in government on the game, to affect change by allowing them to achieve a position of power or influence. I would even be open to them overthrowing a government entirely, as long as there was an appropriate reason behind them wanting to take such action, and there was significant plotting RP leading up to such an 'event.'
4. working with new characters on their background story, and linking it up with existing characters if they were willing, to have some past conflict between them to roleplay off from the very start, or even just so that they can be associated with some kind of group to begin with and don't just flounder.
5. having there be more of an emphasis on tactics, rather than brute strength or speed, and only allowing player-killing when it is really neccesary (barring situations in which a person is just stupid without it being a player error.) I don't think it's helpful to a plot for character A to just kill character B. Instead they could capture character B's girlfriend and hold her hostage. I've created a move where if you're restraining a character and holding a knife you can kill them instantly (cutting their throat), so character A would have to accede to character B's wishes in such a situation if he wanted his girlfriend to live. Fun stuff like that.
6. I think just basically never letting the game reach a completely stable state. There should always be some form conflict going on, even if it's as mild as discussing how to best distrubute the village's supplies during winter. Shortages could make people cranky. So something that always keeps the players off balance.
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:15 AM   #10
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

I posted:

"so character A would have to accede to character B's wishes in such a situation if he wanted his girlfriend to live."

I got those the wrong way around. :/
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:26 AM   #11
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Lemme be devil's advocate here. I like about 1.5 of those 6 points. Not 1, not 2, not 6, half of 3, 4, and 5.

1. Doesn't every mud have tangible objects for characters, whether crafted, found on mobs, found via quest, found randomly? Every mud has people who have things, who can get things, who can make things, who will buy and sell things, and/or who will steal things or kill for things. While yeah, items can be a plot motivator, I wouldn't tout this as something unique you're doing, or something that's going to somehow make your mud's RP more player driven and real than any other mud. I can steal someone's fancy weapon and start a big RP stink about it on any mud.

2. Doesn't every mud have rooms that are fit to RP in? Inns are great because they're traditional fantasy world gaterhing places, but people meet in parks, in barracks, at busy ports, conference rooms, or even out in the woods. I can't think of a single RP mud I've ever played that didn't have a huge variety of places people could RP, but people always tended to congregate in the "main inn" type place, because that's where everyone knew to go to find whoever else was online and looking for RP. If you have a million RP appropriate rooms, people will still sit around in the inn waiting to see who shows up. And again, I'd hesitate to say that this is a unique feature for your particular mud that's going to make RP more player driven or special.

3. Most muds have organizations that have ranks and positions players can acquire. Your most active and powerful players are also usually the leaders of the local kingdoms, clans, guilds, tribes, or whatever, and people meet to discuss politics, trade agreements, and alliances or wars all the time, and some muds even allow for the voting out and/or overthrow of current leadership, and allow the current leadership to structure the organization however they want, even making massive changes (i.e., "Surprise! We were ruled by a democractic council yesterday, but now that the new guys are in power, we're a religious dictatorship.") The key question here is: can these player-run organizations really change the world as a whole? If I want to recruit 20 other players, and together we want to chop down the forest area you worked hard to build and everyone uses to level, make my own village there, and turn the rest of the forest into farmland, you'd really delete this popular leveling area you built and create my village, then give me passive income every few weeks for the money I make from crops and taxing the locals, all because I changed the world through RP?

4. I like your point #4, though some new players who really just want to get into the game can find that whole kind of process intimidating or tedious. For example, I like to log into a mud, make a fairly generic character, and get a feel for the place, not write an extremely detailed description and background after reading four or five novels worth of information on the website, then have to negotiate exactly where I'm going to fit with the staff before I actually get to play. But I, personally, would love to get a note or private in game message from a staff member telling me, "You know, I've been watching how you RP and looked over your background a bit, and it seems like you'd really fit in well with these people over here. It would help flesh out your background and give you some more to do, and help them flesh out their group a little more. You want me to hook you guys up out of character so you can talk?" Some people might hate that.

5. Interesting combat is always a plus, but if it's stupidly complex or tedious and there are 5000 things to remember and configure, it really ticks me off. I'm a huge fan of muds that give characters unique skills that complement and benefit each other, making groups and strategic use of abilities a huge success. I'm a huge hater of muds that want me to try to organize my group into some kind of formation, type a six-line emote every time I want to attack something, or make fighting and using abilities some kind of nightmarish thing where I have to type more than ten keystrokes before hitting enter, then try to modify my combat configuration based on what I see go wrong. I've always found muds that say, "You must RP a good reason to PK someone" to be using too many words to say something a lot simpler: "You must RP." If you're RPing, then you're not going to off another player for no reason. Creative ways to mess with people besides PK stem from the mud code and the world people live in. If death is trivial and people come back to life 30 seconds later with minimal consequences, then "murder" in your mud world isn't nearly as big of a deal as it is in the real world. But if your mud world is closer to the real one with regard to the trouble you get into for killing someone, more creative ways to conflict with others should naturally appear as the players find things they're willing to risk doing.

6. I'm ambivalent on the "constant state of change" thing. If a bunch of players are RPing hard to keep everything a certain way, and their RP should logically accomplish that, who am I as a staff member to screw all that up because I want to keep everything changing? If I interpret this point to be a little less about always inserting contrived and artificial sitautions into the world just to keep people interested, and more as just having an active staff who's always willing to make results possible when people do stuff where appropriate, it sounds a lot better in my mind.

Last edited by SnowTroll : 02-17-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 02-17-2012, 03:37 PM   #12
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

SnowTroll, in reply on the comments you made on the things that I felt would be helpful:

1. I didn't say it was unique to have items. But I think you should either you have a game where items are obtainable by some means (by the character) or you have a game where there are no items of any kind and you just assume they are there. What I don't think you should have is a game that requires you to ask the staff for most items. One reason players bitched and moaned on a MUD I recently played was that the staff didn't do item requests quickly enough. Players required props for plots, they even had the funds, but had to wait months, constantly prompting the staff in the meantime to do their requests so that they could get on with thier plots.

2. You'd be surprised. Some of the best roleplay I've had has been in places other than an inn. I find the most boring to be in an inn. Different groups require different locations to privately discuss their goals, well.. privately. Again, it's not unique and I never said it was, it's just a good idea, and something not all MUD's provide for their players, nor do they neccesarily provide support for organisations.

3. You make a good point here. I think the important thing is to make sure that your actions are realistic for the setting if you are in a position of power in the game, so again we come back to neccesary limits that some players might well get annoyed at the staff about. As far as rebuilding an entire area goes, I'd be willing to rebuild it slowly over time and probably only partially if it was something the size of a forest. Realistic time constraints would prevent a character changing the world overnight, because that wouldn't be possible in the real world so why should it be in a game?

4. It wouldn't be mandatory to have a 'roled' character. The setup system I have at the moment is extremely brief, aside from the time that I'd expect a new player to devote to reading the rules of the game and files about the setting (which again aren't overly long-winded, just the basics.) Roles could be requested on a forums by me, so instead of approaching any particular player and asking them, they can apply for the roles, stating how they think they'd play them etc, and I could pick who I think would be the best candidate.

5. Combat system should be simple and straightforward to use, I agree. Players can roleplay and still off another character for a stupid reason that furthers a plot in no way whatsoever. Some person insults someone, so another guy comes along, gives a 3 line emote of stabbing them in the gut and that's it. More often than not this kind of thing just kills a plot before it gets really interesting, as if it was done in private as well, nobody knows or will ever know who did it. I too dislike death that isn't permanent, exactly for the reason you stated - it becomes a trivial thing.

6. I see what you mean here. I disliked it when the staff on RPI's I've played have just changed something without even doing any roleplay (actually involving other characters) to support it themselves. Oh there's been a rebellion, now the kingdom is ruled by another race. Enjoy! ...Nah. I think the important thing is that there should be roleplay leading up to the change and that it should be believable (and if it's been roleplayed through, it will be believable. However, I was referring less to staff changing things themselves and more to inserting roled characters that already have existing conflicts into the world and keeping a balance of good and bad characters by defining these roles as good or bad when they are accepted, so that you don't end up with all shady people or all saintly people in the world as that gets dull very quickly. I say good and bad, but it could also just be people with different points of view to other people.
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Old 02-17-2012, 03:55 PM   #13
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Referring again to 1, I'd obviously get a bit annoyed if players started being cliquey and only roleplaying in their private gathering rooms. Roleplaying in public gathering places would be equally, if not more important, but I think both have importance.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:03 AM   #14
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

It's a balance. If the staff gets too involved it will **** off the players that don't want staff mucking around with their plots. If they don't ever get involved then it will do the opposite for extroverted players that want attention and need staff support and involvement to enjoy the game.

I guess really the question is for me is how much is too much staff involvement? How much is too little involvement?

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Old 02-18-2012, 02:05 AM   #15
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

Wow they censor p i ss.. stupid.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:50 AM   #16
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

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Wow they censor p i ss.. stupid.
If the rules for this Board forbid rude or otherwise deemed obscene language, then they have the right to censor what is deemed such.


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Old 02-18-2012, 01:39 PM   #17
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

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Originally Posted by Orion View Post
The key element to any successful RPI MUD, is the ability for players to be able to sustain plots themselves without staff involvement. Staff should give the players the tools to do so, and
administrate rather than be controlling in other to allow the creativity of the players to be
expressed.

Do you agree or disagree?
Change 'The' to 'A' and I approve wholeheartedly. Players make the game, and their propensity for instigating roleplay is certainly key. I feel there's a few other elements you need to be successful, such as attracting players in the first place on down to any essential non-roleplay mechanics.
On the Staff-controlling aspect, I believe firmly that the players have the right to roleplay their characters as they will, while the Staff has the right to set the scene and roleplay as NPCs. I've also found that players appreciate most a Staff member that will listen to their ideas and use their immortal powers to facilitate character growth in an OOCly positive manner.
I also appreciate Staff that are willing to question or suggest ideas for PC roleplay without demanding or criticizing; likewise a Staff member who is willing to give a player a gentle, yet firm 'No' when circumstances dictate.
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:46 PM   #18
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

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...a few other elements you need to be successful, such as attracting players in the first place...
Attracting players is easy. Keeping them is a whole nother ball of wax.
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:00 PM   #19
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

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Attracting players is easy. Keeping them is a whole nother ball of wax.
^ ^ ^ Seconded.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:34 AM   #20
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Re: The Key Element - RPI MUD's

realmsofvalor you posted:

"I also appreciate Staff that are willing to question or suggest ideas for PC roleplay without demanding or criticizing; likewise a Staff member who is willing to give a player a gentle, yet firm 'No' when circumstances dictate."

This again touches on the question of how to encourage players to roleplay in a manner that helps the game. All manner of support can be put in place, but unless players are encouraged to better their writing and roleplay in a manner not just beneficial to their themselves but to other players, I don't think it will end up being much fun. And by this I don't mean just characters being nice to another character and showing them around the game world. Your character can be an evil bastard to a newbie and still give them an entertaining time of it, if it's done with the other person's enjoyment in mind as well. Besides, it's not realistic for an evil character to be helpful to newbie characters. Leave that to the good guys.

I think that rather than the staff criticising (unless rules are broken), the staff should just reward good roleplay and state why they felt that it was good roleplay. It doesn't have to be just the staff either, players could be encouraged to state on a forums which player's roleplay they particularly enjoyed in a given month, with nominations for 'roleplayer of the month.' There would be runners up as well, with prizes of 'roleplay points' which they can spend in game.

While you might say favouritism might occur, reasons would have to be given for your nomination(s) and the staff could either allow or not allow the nomination depending on whether the reason seems valid. I find that people who go on about favouritism are often just the jealous type that would rather not try to improve their roleplay and are just concerned about the extra points some players are getting. Either the staff can reward points, or everyone, including the staff can be involved in judging the quality of roleplay. Which seems fairer? To not reward anyone based on the quality of roleplay results in a lack of enthusiasm in their roleplay. They can just bang out any old 4 line emote and it makes no difference with regards to how many points they get.
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