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Old 08-21-2012, 01:34 PM   #41
Sombalance
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

Are you actually saying that you would hold an IC event, invite Players to it, but then expect the players to do nothing during the event other than observe you or some small subset of the characters present? And if they did perform some sort of action, then they would be the RP hog?
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:23 PM   #42
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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Originally Posted by Sombalance View Post
Are you actually saying that you would hold an IC event, invite Players to it, but then expect the players to do nothing during the event other than observe you or some small subset of the characters present? And if they did perform some sort of action, then they would be the RP hog?
Again, you're missing the point. This is about attention-hogs, not normal roleplay. Since you're not getting it, I'll lay out a typical attention hog scene - same wedding. There are 30 PCs present, including the bride and groom.

The high wizard asks groom to give his vows.

The green-eyed guest reaches for her purple-polka-dotted silvery spidersilk hankie and waves it in the air.

Before the groom can type enter on his first line, the green-eyed guest's eyes mist over and she lets out a soft sobbing sound.

The groom makes his first line, which is a lovely sentiment.

The blue-haired woman smiles.

The green-eyed guest does some other thing, making a noise and clearing her throat.

The orange-speckled man glances at the green-eyed guest.

The groom makes his next line.

The bride beams happily at the groom.

The green-eyed guest says, in guest-accented common, "oh doesn't she look beautiful"

Green eyed guest tosses out a 3-line emote, which she had lined up in a text file along with another two dozen to make sure she didn't have to spend too much time typing things out for this shindig. This 3-line emote is designed to draw attention to the angle of one leg crossing over the other, and exposing the tips of her f-me shoes.

Wizard asks the bridge to make her vows.

Before the purple-haired man can object (since he's the ex-boyfriend of the bride and he was going to object cause he still loves her), green-eyed guest tosses out 2 more 3-line emotes, the first of which is about how her polka-dotted silvery spidersilk hankie is now getting tear-stained, and the second is how she is adjusting her own gown.

The bridge finally spits out a couple of lines of her vow recital. While she's waiting the obligatory 3 second delay so people can read it before going on to the next...

The green-eyed guest spits out nother 3-line emote. This time, it's about how her shimmering emerald orbs glisten in the dim candle-lit wedding chapel's atmosphere, setting off the brightly beaded decoletage of her silvery spidersilk cocktail dress.

A couple of people start glancing at the green-eye guest.
A few people start whispering to each other, nudging their chins in the direction of the green-eyed guest.

The player of the bride and groom and wizard are starting to get annoyed, because there's nothing this green-eyed guest is doing, ICly, that's disruptive. However, everything she's doing, is OOCly disruptive, because the game relies on text, and she is ensuring that her text is seen more prominently than anyone else's text, thus drawing the OOC attention to her, instead of the scene.

Game over - player of green-eyed guest wins this round.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:27 PM   #43
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

Maybe this is a dumb suggestion - but perhaps don't invite her to the wedding next time?

Its an RP mud -- if someone is causing issues -- then create a reason to get rid of them. Someone should make something up to get rid of them. Perhaps it draws more attention to them initially -- but then they can be removed from the room and you can continue with how you'd like.

Honestly sounds a lot more interesting and entertaining to me than sitting and just watching the wedding take place with expected comments.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:10 PM   #44
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

Hi Jazuela.

Actually, I think I hit the point right on the head. It is probably because I've been the green eyed person in a very similar scenario before. I've also been on the other side as well (groom/priest/speaker..)

First, I think it is fantastic if you can get 26 people to come to an event and be spectators while four other people roleplay. I personally would be bored to tears, but I'm a confessed RP Action junkie (short and fast poses as opposed to long, detailed and slower pace) I'd like to think if someone told me I was bothering a scene I would change my behavior for that event. In the wedding example, I'd probably go AFK and do something else.

I also would never ask someone to come to a ceremony in game and not want them to participate. I'd actually encourage the behavior you seem to dislike so much.

What I love about RP games is the randomness that other players introduce to the game. Sure, sometimes I find it annoying, but not to the point where I would ever try to curtail it.

What you are describing is what I consider a normal part of the game.

Now, if you said that the green eyed guest ran in and screamed she had just been attacked and tried to draw half the guest away to chase down the imaginary attacker, I would agree 100% that you had an RP hog. (I've played with this type of person too. Every day was a new crisis, and I did have a knight who had to leave an event to respond to exactly this time of activity). And I think I have to agree with Threshold about this time of activity. Either you ICly disrupt the wedding or you OOCly ask the players to pretend it didn't happen.

Again, in my situation, I dealt with it ICly. I followed the person who screamed she was attacked. When we didn't find anyone I began to have doubts about her mental state, which I shared with an Inquisitor whose solution to all problems involved a stake, a pile of kindling and a torch. Sadly, her next character was pretty much the same way


What I think is important is the game clearly defines what it expects from roleplaying. Is there a pose order? How long must you wait before you can pose again? Is there a minimum pose length? Are you expected to pose to every character you pass? In that way players who don't fit your model might be able to self police themselves and find a game where they would be more welcome.

As a player I think your OOC action is limited to a suggestion, followed by a complaint to an admin to really handle it. If a player tries to change another players RP behavior, it probably won't end well. It probably won't end when an admin does it either, but at least its the admin's job.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:13 PM   #45
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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And I think I have to agree with Threshold about this time of activity. Either you ICly disrupt the wedding or you OOCly ask the players to pretend it didn't happen.
I wanted to clarify that Threshold didn't actually say the above. It was just my attempt (perhaps poorly) of agreeing that if you can't deal with it ICly you may have to do it OOC.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:59 PM   #46
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

Actually I'd have to agree with Somblance here. On NWA we have events with 50 players or more attend. Hence the need for special coding at these events to control attention hogs. Displaying some roleplay during events can add to the stage in that on a rp enforced game everyone is an actor and should participate in some small manner.

However, I think when speaking of an attention hog, we're talking about someone trying to "spotlight" the entire time, drawing attention to themselves which is quite different.

As for quick poses in large group scenarious, I think you must play on NWA, Somblance, as that is what happens since you never have time to lay out paragraph poses.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:38 PM   #47
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

The term "pose" is pretty MUSH specific. I don't play MUSHES. Again - again - and again - and really I shouldn't need to explain further, but you're really itching to get me to micromanage the post...

This isn't about only four people roleplaying and 46 others watching. It's about a scene, in which three characters *are* the main characters, and the others are people who are there to participate.

When ONE person who is there to participate, drowns out not only everyone else, but the three main characters, by hogging the scene and detracting from the whole reason that scene exists, then that person is an attention-hog, from an OOC perspective. When that person has their 3-line emotes (not poses - those can go on for 20-line paragraphs) set up and just waiting to copy and paste to buffer to prove how much better of a roleplayer they are...

and they do it in such a way that is SO distracting, that other people might START to type something, but then THAT shows up and they backspace to respond to THAT..and then that OTHER thing shows up so they have to backspace to respond to THAT..

Because the green-eyed chick's player has no interest in seeing anyone else's roleplay, she only wants everyone to notice hers..which - they can't help but do, because she's taking up the whole screen scroll..

then she is an attention hog. And it is an OOC attention hogging going on, not an IC attention hog going on.

When I played Gemstone this kind of thing used to happen all the time. People would wear their silvery spidersilk cloaks with green trim and fur collar, and point at their cloaks, touch their cloaks, smile at their cloaks, and do all kinds of other things involving their cloaks, JUST to make sure that everyone knew they were wearing a silvery spidersilk cloak with green trim and fur collar - and to heck with anyone who wanted to pay attention to the -actual- scene going on.

Used to happen all the time. Granted, that isn't even remotely an RPI, and it's really not much more than a glorified pay-to-play hack-n-slash with RP allowed. But that kind of thing happens on other games, and some places use the OOC methods to stop it before it becomes disruptive. And sometimes the staff has to intervene.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:55 PM   #48
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

I don't play mushes either - just somewhere in the past I started using pose when I meant any one of several methods of roleplaying (room echos, emotes, emote through npc, say, whispers....) without wanting to specify a specific method.

Your description of an player being an RP hog seems pretty detailed. I don't think I misunderstand. It is simply a matter of not agreeing. I'm not even trying to say what you are describing is wrong. It seems appropriate for the type of game that you prefer to play. It wouldn't be for the type of game I prefer to play.

I think that happens a lot in intense RP environments. Players have an expectation of what they consider appropriate and players with similar expectations tend to get along well while those who behave outside of the norm can be a distraction.

That may be why people who RP on muds have a hard time adapting to mushes and vice versa.

It appears that if I played on your game, I would be the distraction until I adapted to the local game style or went away. If your game clearly defined what the expectations were, then that transition is likely to move along faster than if I had to figure it out on my own. And when I was annoying, you would have a set of guidelines that you could point me to.

Now, I am assuming that the problem player really wants to fit it and may not be aware of their own behavior. If that isn't true, and the player doesn't want to fit in, and is intentionally trying to be disruptive just for the sake of being disruptive, then as an admin, I wouldn't try to treat that as an RP issue. I'd treat it as a hostile OOC act and deal with it at a different level.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:58 AM   #49
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

Yes that's it exactly. Well almost exactly, but you're seeing my point (and agreeing with it, I get that!).

There's "player really wants to fit in and isn't aware of their own behavior"
There's "player is intentionally trying to be disruptive just for the sake of being disruptive"

and...

Theres "player is intentionally trying to be disruptive because until that moment, the scene was about someone else, and they feel the attention should be on them. And they do this every time there's a scene that's about someone else."

That last one - that's the one I'm talking about.

The first one, is easily fixed with a quick polite, helpful, gentle OOC from either players or the staff.

The second is readily resolved by players reporting complaints to the staff, who then tell the offending party to cease and desist.

The third - that's the one that's hard to resolve, because ICly, *technically* nothing is going on that requires IC resolution. OOCly, the player isn't breaking any specific rules, but they are breaking the -spirit- of the rules, which is - no, this isn't a turn-based mush, it's just a normal roleplay environment. However, please give other people a chance to roleplay, and don't demand that the game must always be about you and your character. It's OKAY to be just a participant on the sidelines, you don't always have to be the star.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:18 AM   #50
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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"player is intentionally trying to be disruptive because until that moment, the scene was about someone else, and they feel the attention should be on them. And they do this every time there's a scene that's about someone else."
I'd just like to reiterate a portion of my last comment, because the problem with an RP-hog isn't a conscious desire to take over the scene and dominate all of the attention. RP-hogs believe, with 100% certainty, that they are doing the right and correct thing and are improving the game by contributing to an rp scene. They're not consciously trying to steal the show or post 50 things they think are awesome before anybody has a chance to react. They just honestly don't see the point in sitting quietly with their character while other people roleplay. They're there to participate, add to the scene, and believe people should be thankful for their contribution. I'm not saying they're not selfish, narcisistic hogs in reality, just that in their minds, it's not about "bringing the focus back to me," it's about "I'm here to rp, not idle while other people rp. Time to add something awesome."

You could almost talk sense into most RP hogs if, instead of asking, "Could you demonstrate some basic OOC courtesy by shutting up since this event isn't about you?" you asked, "Could you slow the pace of your poses down to maybe one every 2 minutes for this event? Due to the large number of people here, we want to make sure other people have a chance to react to everything and follow everything that's going on without getting buried by text."
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:33 PM   #51
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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The third - that's the one that's hard to resolve, because ICly, *technically* nothing is going on that requires IC resolution. OOCly, the player isn't breaking any specific rules, but they are breaking the -spirit- of the rules, which is - no, this isn't a turn-based mush, it's just a normal roleplay environment. However, please give other people a chance to roleplay, and don't demand that the game must always be about you and your character. It's OKAY to be just a participant on the sidelines, you don't always have to be the star.
Exactly. That's the challenging type of situation to deal with, and is precisely what inspired me to start this thread 'o so many years ago.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:50 AM   #52
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

I've heard these referred to as 'hub characters,' before, and other characters 'supporting characters.' Hub characters aren't neccesarily a bad thing. They generate roleplay. It's important for some players to be supporting characters though, and hub characters can support others as well, even if in a lesser capacity. If everyone wants to be a hub character, then it doesn't work, so you need leaders and followers.

But sometimes it's not in the nature of a character that is full of themself and seeks power to want to support others, or sit back and let others take control of a situation. That might not gain them as much respect though, so if they want to stay liked, they'll involve others and let them feel like they have something to contribute as well.

All that is down to roleplay. The only players I would have issue with are: players who don't give time for others to emote, or disregard the actions of other characters.

Last edited by Orion : 10-12-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:16 PM   #53
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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But sometimes it's not in the nature of a character that is full of themself and seeks power to want to support others, or sit back and let others take control of a situation. That might not gain them as much respect though, so if they want to stay liked, they'll involve others and let them feel like they have something to contribute as well.
Then they shouldn't intrude on another "hub character's" roleplay and try to twist it to be about them.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:17 PM   #54
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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And with the resolution you come up with, you play -right- into the dramahog's game: taking the focus away from the scene that was trying to be presented by the majority, and placing the focus on the dramahog.

Wedding interrupted - check.
Dramahog gets to play the star of the show/victim/perpetrator - check
Bride and Groom's joyous moment forgotten and ignored while everyone deals with noticing the bouncer going to the dramahog to escort him out (and if he's truly a dramahog, he'll put up a fuss, or make excuses, or demand justice, etc. etc.) - check.

This is what the dramahog lives for: the exact type of situation AND resolution you refer to.
Ah.

I think your and my views on roleplay are different. To me, roleplay is a fluid, living thing. There is no 'scene', there is the world and the things that happen in it.

So if someone tries to crash a wedding, that's what's happening. Is the wedding 'ruined'? Maybe. That's an IC event, and players can deal with it ICly. Maybe the couple getting married will be stressed over it and break up, as a result the two factions they each represented end up clashing - maybe even leading to an all out war? That sounds like a good story and lots of potentially excellent, self-perpetuating roleplay right there.

And if someone gets butthurt because something didn't go their wayl, they need to grow up, roll with it and make it fun. That's the whole point. Roleplay is entertainment, not a surrogate life where everything always goes swimmingly. Where's the excitement in everything turning out as planned?

As for the dramahog, if he messes with the wrong people he may just end up dead in the gutter. If that's what he wants, hell, who am I to complain?

Edit:

In fact, here's an idea. Briefly roll a character on SD and try to 'disrupt' RP. And you will see the players deal with it ICly without staff assistance and probably enjoy it to boot. I'll even donate 10 bucks to the MU* of your choice if they get OOCly upset about it. I have faith in my peon..er..players.

Last edited by Guardian : 10-14-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:34 AM   #55
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

This thread's back again?

Anyway, your response looks like you only skimmed it. I think everybody agrees, 100%, that if somebody does something that warrants IC action, IC action happens.

What do you do for some of the things that don't warrant IC action? The example this thread's been running with was a wedding where one of the non-participant guests who showed up was dominating the scene with poor OOC etiquette, but not dominating the scene in an IC manner. He was emoting long poses about how he sat, maybe cried or blew his nose, etc., and doing it with great frequency. Things that IC, wouldn't really draw that much attention to him or get him ousted, but OOC, were filling up the screen and drawing attention away from the main event. You can't yell at him IC for being noisy or distracting from the IC event when his last four-line emote is all about how he's sitting quietly. You also can't yell at him IC for emoting too frequely, not giving others a turn, and exercising poor OOC etiquette. He's only being disruptive and rude OOC, but IC, he's exhibiting normal behavior for the scene.

I have no doubt your mud's players would go all inner city cyberpunk on a guy who was disrupting rp, and a lot of people have suggested similar approaches, but would it really be right to react that way to somebody who was being totally appropriate and making all the right moves IC, but was doing it in an OOCly annoying way?
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:56 PM   #56
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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You can't yell at him IC for being noisy or distracting from the IC event when his last four-line emote is all about how he's sitting quietly.
Very simple - you ask him whether his goal is to contribute or to distract.

If his goal is to distract solely, remove him from the game.

I am a fan of binary logic.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:35 PM   #57
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

This is a pretty snazzy topic, one that I haven't really been involved in previously. As a staff member on my MUD, I try to (as smoothly as possible) move said spotlight around, thus making it hard to hog. I consider it my job to endeavor to keep any one person from being capable of directing the roleplay in a way that isn't conducive to roleplay and to the players.

That said, I haven't really had to deal with a spotlight hog -as staff- just yet. As a player, I tend to just ... downplay them, I imagine. React--because I believe strong roleplay doesn't simply ignore, unless the roleplay is -so outlandish- it violates the atmosphere (OOC or pointlessly vulgar behavior/talk, forcing other players actions continuously, et cetera). Currently, I seem to enjoy the time to make each player feel valued in roleplay, though it's much, much harder when their trains-of-thought and personalities derail ("Let's kill him." "No, I want to question him!" so on).

I suppose I'll have to let you guys know when the time comes!

[EDIT: Oh, no, I've contributed to the perceived existence of this thread. Sorry! I've only just noticed it.]

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Old 12-27-2012, 11:24 PM   #58
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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Very simple - you ask him whether his goal is to contribute or to distract.

If his goal is to distract solely, remove him from the game.

I am a fan of binary logic.
Binary logic rarely works for community management.

When you ask your question, the player will say they most definitely are not trying to distract and that they are simply contributing and participating in the RP event.

If pressed further, the player will point to the tons of RP events he/she runs for others and how he/she leads tons of RP that countless people benefit from.

Your move, Mr. Binary.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:14 PM   #59
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

I have never even seen an RP attention hog, unless you mean wizards with their overly wordy way of talk that fills up the screen.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:39 PM   #60
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Re: Dealing with RP Attention Hogs

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Because most people aren't riding dragons, turning invisible, and cutting off the heads of orcs IRL.
Speak for yourself. The only problem with my orc heads is they are not classified as permanent equipment and every time I return to reality, they are no longer in my inventory.
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