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Old 01-16-2013, 10:20 AM   #301
KaVir
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

For those interested in the subject, the "MUD trees" article has now been nominated for deletion:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MUD trees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:12 AM   #302
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Chimed in with my two cents.

Hopefully we can save this page.

I looked at the page for the person who proposed its deletion:

User:Pburka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looks like a classic Wikipedia user bucking for admin status. He created a crapton of pages about garbage nobody really cares about, and now he's trying to get stuff deleted that he assumes nobody cares about.

Basically, a large part of what's bad about Wikipedia.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:35 PM   #303
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

I've also chimed in. I can understand wanting to keep the quality level of the wiki high with all the various guidelines, but for Pburka to be nominating that for deletion while creating pages like Domino, Newfoundland and Labrador - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a pretty douchebag maneuver. At least he should have the decency to stay in his area of expertise.

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Old 01-17-2013, 05:56 PM   #304
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dentin View Post
I've also chimed in. I can understand wanting to keep the quality level of the wiki high with all the various guidelines, but for Pburka to be nominating that for deletion while creating pages like Domino, Newfoundland and Labrador - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a pretty douchebag maneuver. At least he should have the decency to stay in his area of expertise.
Oh goodness. That is an atrocity.

What a joke.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:48 PM   #305
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Yeah, this is all par for the course with Wikipedia. If you get a guy with an agenda in charge over there, they'll do crazy stuff and hide behind the rules. Just try getting pro-life articles to stick; there's still an "anti-abortion violence" article but "violence against pro-life" is not considered noteworthy enough to have an article.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:58 AM   #306
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dentin View Post
I've also chimed in. I can understand wanting to keep the quality level of the wiki high with all the various guidelines, but for Pburka to be nominating that for deletion while creating pages like Domino, Newfoundland and Labrador - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a pretty douchebag maneuver. At least he should have the decency to stay in his area of expertise.

-dentin

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Alter Aeon

Just read that article. All I have to say that he's a sham as a writer for not going in any depth about the area's history, geology, flora and fauna, map location (longatude and Latitude--as is with simular write up) or even citing people of importance. There's no high quality level in this work, he just starts something and exspects someone else to do the real work in making it presentable...

Then most likely would take credit for that person's work.

Nice guy.

Remind me to avoid him.

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Old 01-18-2013, 11:03 AM   #307
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

There's so much crap on Wikipedia that one wonders how this guy even came across some random article on MUD Trees unless he specifically searched for stuff regarding MUDs to target. Especially when his normal subject matter is so far removed from this topic.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:43 AM   #308
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

I'd guess he probably stumbled across it by chance, and thought it would make easy pickings for his Wikipedia portfolio.
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:02 AM   #309
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Good news:

Quote:
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 03:03, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Victory for MUDs and sanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
I'd guess he probably stumbled across it by chance, and thought it would make easy pickings for his Wikipedia portfolio.
That's my thinking as well.

Any wikipedia experts here? Now that this is over we should all join forces and get a bunch of his garbage articles deleted.

Teach him to bring a knife to a gun fight.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:45 AM   #310
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Any wikipedia experts here? Now that this is over we should all join forces and get a bunch of his garbage articles deleted.

Teach him to bring a knife to a gun fight.
When they removed Aardwolf as not notable the act of posting about it here was considered "campaigning" and counted against it.

One Wiki admin who was sympathetic to the whole situation told me when that happens the editors often do their own campaigning behind the scenes and, sure enough, a whole bunch of wikipedia editors who hadn't been involved up to that point were suddenly on the article recommending deletion. A couple of days later it was gone. One or two of them showed up here, possibly even in this thread.

I guess I'm saying be careful what you post because there could be a wanna-be wiki admin reading this right now thinking, "Threshold RPG article next, teach him to bring a knife to a gun fight".
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:51 PM   #311
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasher View Post
I guess I'm saying be careful what you post because there could be a wanna-be wiki admin reading this right now thinking, "Threshold RPG article next, teach him to bring a knife to a gun fight".
That's how this whole thread got started actually, some wanna-be admin trying to delete Threshold's entry. Go peek at page 1 .

The AfD page for our deletion was, at the time at least, the largest AfD in the history of Wikipedia.

You are spot on that the subset of wiki admins who are in it for "the POWER!" are juvenile and petty as hell and will break any rule just to get their way. It is really quite sad.

I guess we should just be happy that in this case, the good guys won and the mud tree article will remain.

I really wish there was someone in our community who had the time, energy, and interest to work their way up to some type of Wikipedia admin. At least then we'd have some kind of representation on the inside to guard against this type of stuff.

Last edited by Threshold : 01-19-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:53 AM   #312
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
For those interested in the subject, the "MUD trees" article has now been nominated for deletion:
I've just been reliably informed that I'm not allowed to notify other Wikipedia editors about ongoing discussions outside of Wikipedia, and that the WP:CANVASS disclaimer "unless there is a specific reason not to use talk pages" doesn't include not actually knowing the names of your talk pages.

So for those Wikipedia editors among you who are interested in participating in discussions about mud related articles in the future, please let me know on my talk page, and I will notify you about ongoing discussions on your own talk pages. I would also strongly recommend watching chaos5023's talk page, as people usually notify him there about discussions that require a consensus.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:04 PM   #313
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Regarding Pburka, the username and the apparent familiarity with Martin Keegan's work made me wonder if this were Lauren P. Burka of MUDDEX fame. Wouldn't that be a twist?
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:32 PM   #314
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
I've just been reliably informed that I'm not allowed to notify other Wikipedia editors about ongoing discussions outside of Wikipedia, and that the WP:CANVASS disclaimer "unless there is a specific reason not to use talk pages" doesn't include not actually knowing the names of your talk pages.
TRANSLATION: This is our widdle secwet cwub. You have to cwimb up into our widdle twee howse if you wanna partica-parta-particip- be involved.

Stuff like that is what gives Wikipedia the cultist, Jim Jones-like appearance.

If the goal is to ultimately produce a high quality source of information, then it shouldn't matter how people find out about an issue. If they show up and add meaningful, quality input, it doesn't matter how they found out about it.

Sorry Wikinerds, communicating by re-editing a page a thousand times over and over is not only unwieldy, but stupid and inconvenient. The rest of the world uses far more convenient and well designed communication tools like email, forums, twitter, and Facebook.

Trying to have a discussion on Wikipedia is one of the most painful things you can do online. It is archaic and makes absolutely no sense. BBSes did communication better than the whole "lets all manually edit the same page and somehow use that to communicate."

WORST THING ABOUT ALL THIS: Probably 99% of Wikipedia admins and editors work their butts off making it a great site. They do this for no pay and basically no recognition. The result of their hard work is an absolutely AMAZING information resource.

The 1% basement dwelling losers who are desperate for some kind of "status" are the ones who sully the whole. Its a shame.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:25 PM   #315
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

I agree, Wikipedia is an amazing collaborative effort! Though, idealistic as it
might seem, I often wish it had evolved to be a less centralized; more like a
multitude of cooperative encyclopedias adhering to similar principles but
permitted (and even expected) to diverge on issues. I mean there's plenty of
storage space for different viewpoints, why not allow them all? This would
better reflect how the internet was designed and serve to limit the domain of
misguided administrators, allowing people to decide for themselves what
constituted "important" information.

What prevents a distributed encyclopedia with a quality similar to Wikipedia?
What would be the major obstacles? Most likely it would require some kind of
central organization.

Although I haven't really worked with the Wikimedia tools (other than editing),
it seems here that deletion is a misnomer. When something is deleted it's
(generally) not possible to restore the contents. Deletion means permanent
destruction, in this case articles are simply hidden. I suppose it's possible
that some low priority content or blatant vandalism and such is marked for
eventual deletion. So maybe deleted means effectively deleted.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:10 AM   #316
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Today's xkcd was kind of on point, so I thought I'd share the link.

xkcd: Star Trek into Darkness
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:48 PM   #317
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
TRANSLATION: This is our widdle secwet cwub. You have to cwimb up into our widdle twee howse if you wanna partica-parta-particip- be involved.
Hahahahaha, that sums it up perfectly.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:00 AM   #318
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Hello, all. Been a while since I've been around but I thought I'd pop in and say hi and offer some thoughts (probably have done so in the past but I'm not in the mood to surf through this thread to see).

The community needs to recognize that the problems originate not with Wikipedia but within the community itself. Case in point, tonight a friend sent me a message that Accursed Lands was again using false information regarding their game on their Wikipedia page. From claiming to be an early RPI to denying that their so-called RPIMUD Game of the Year title was rescinded, it's an example of why this genre isn't taken seriously. The RPMUD Network has all but ceased operation due to the lack of interest from the community in peer-review and critical analysis of games (though thank you to those who did help out). Respectability comes not from self-attribution and self-manufactured sources but from recognizable sources and credible data. Manufacturing pages to cite in your article, ignoring that which doesn't comply with your claims and conspiracy theories about bias (I just know Accursed Lands is going to whine that I didn't log into Wikipedia to make edits as if that was some legitimate argument against them; I simply don't recall my login or password) don't lend respectability or creedance.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:26 AM   #319
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

There really doesn't seem to be much of an actual community. More along the lines of a relatively small number of people that are either constantly changing MUDs/Mushes/whatever (From here on I refer to all similar games as MUDS) or trying to expand their own muds. With everyone else relatively isolated in their own little mud worlds. How many people are actually trying to defend Mudding or even care how well recognized MUDDing is as its own platform and how many only care about strengthening their own Mud's playerbase?

Not to mention that I imagie competition between muds is pretty cutthroat as similar muds struggle in a negative sum game of trying to keep their muds alive. I'm a little surprised actually that there isn't more then just deception going on in the wikipedia pages, instead of things like outright sabotage of each other.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:45 PM   #320
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Re: In defense of all MUDs. Our genre's noteworthiness is being questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verbannon View Post
There really doesn't seem to be much of an actual community. More along the lines of a relatively small number of people that are either constantly changing MUDs/Mushes/whatever (From here on I refer to all similar games as MUDS) or trying to expand their own muds. With everyone else relatively isolated in their own little mud worlds. How many people are actually trying to defend Mudding or even care how well recognized MUDDing is as its own platform and how many only care about strengthening their own Mud's playerbase?

Not to mention that I imagie competition between muds is pretty cutthroat as similar muds struggle in a negative sum game of trying to keep their muds alive. I'm a little surprised actually that there isn't more then just deception going on in the wikipedia pages, instead of things like outright sabotage of each other.
While I agree with some of what is said here, I disagree with the premise and idea there is not a community and that there is a cutthroat struggle for supremacy. I've seen over the last couple of years that many Admins are cordial and sometimes even positive in promoting other games. I've seen the community stop bickering like children and begin to promote eachother's accomplishments.

I can't speak for Wikipedia because I've never promoted anything or created anything there.
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