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Old 04-14-2013, 10:56 AM   #1
cruelcore
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Post Enforced sexism?

Strange question - but I was wondering if anyone knew of any games with thematic sexism/racism/not being very nice/whatever.

The only one I know of is Firan, but I figure there must be more, right?
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:52 PM   #2
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by cruelcore View Post
Strange question - but I was wondering if anyone knew of any games with thematic sexism/racism/not being very nice/whatever.

The only one I know of is Firan, but I figure there must be more, right?
In Armageddon, there's enforced racism and prejudice against magick users as well as those of the opposite city-state (if you're from a main city), those in tribes (if you're a city dweller) most times, and if you're in a tribe, against those in cities. It's the absolute opposite on sexism however. There is no sexism whatsoever, but plenty of hate via the other faction type hatreds, there's also the tagline of the game: "murder, corruption, betrayal", so it definitely fits the not being very nice element as well.

In Dark Isles there was a bit of sexism, though I'm not sure it was intentional. It seemed more like a side effect of the setting itself. They were also werewolfish vs vampirish (they have setting unique names for them) type races that were at strife with each other, though that was more the special races at odds than anything else, though pretty much everyone is prejudiced against the vampirish types.

In Southlands, there's a prejudice against the use of certain types of magick as well as certain races, but again, no sexism. It tends to be nicer, on the whole (player to player interactions, that is) than Armageddon from my experience, but there's definitely a level of tension and strife, though you may want to start in Shae rather than Tow if you want to see that.

Other than the now-defunct mud WOTL, those are the only games I've really played around with enough to understand a great deal of the tensions. Hope that helped, though.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:16 AM   #3
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Re: Enforced sexism?

Avendar: the Crucible of Legends has racism of various sorts, most overtly directed toward a race that is responsible for major wars in the world's recent history, as well as the enslavement of another race.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:41 PM   #4
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by cruelcore View Post
Strange question - but I was wondering if anyone knew of any games with thematic sexism/racism/not being very nice/whatever.

The only one I know of is Firan, but I figure there must be more, right?
Not so strange a question considering most games are fantasy based or at least not based in our modern ideas of community. The idea of such proclivities should not be suprising.

On New Worlds Ateraan some of the races are by nature opposed (you can see this from the descriptions at http://www.ateraan.com/races/races_kingdom.html and http://www.ateraan.com/races/races_darmahk.html )

The Kingdom and Southland have some severe dyametric antagonism between them. In the south, if you are bold enough to start there (not recommended for new players to the game), there are slaves, servants, and conscripts who have no rights whatsoever and are often punished, even killed for behavior.

So while NWA has good enjoyable roleplay with comraderie and unionism, there is a side of it that also has the most dangerous and diabolicle behavior you can find.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #5
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Strange question - but I was wondering if anyone knew of any games with thematic sexism/racism/not being very nice/whatever.
Threshold has a very elaborate system of allegiances and animosities.

One of the stronger ones is between two races: Canis and Catfolk.

Their animosity is more than just a version of "cats vs. dogs." There is a religious element to it as well. From the in game help file, help catfolk:

Quote:
It is not known exactly how the catfolk evolved. Their own lore claims that they are the children of an ancient god of cats, who was quietly eliminated by Silvanus many eons go. Clerics of Silvanus deny this, but the catfolk remain suspicious of Silvanus' religion.
Another part of the religious lore is that Silvanus may have created the canis race.

All of this together results in a lot of in character conflict between the races.
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Old 04-15-2013, 06:27 PM   #6
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Re: Enforced sexism?

Don't know about sexism but Shadowgate about a year ago launched human ethnicity. With some built in racism between them. In addition to your standard D&D racism between the varying fantasy races.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:09 AM   #7
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Re: Enforced sexism?

Unfortunately, I tried to play a character who was mistrustful towards other races and close to outright racist on Threshold, and he constantly got characters of all sorts who used 'kick' and 'punch' socials on him and were quite outraged at such sentiments, like I was rocking the boat or something.

I think the most realistic way this is played out is in the RPI's.
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:40 PM   #8
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by Bogre View Post
Unfortunately, I tried to play a character who was mistrustful towards other races and close to outright racist on Threshold, and he constantly got characters of all sorts who used 'kick' and 'punch' socials on him and were quite outraged at such sentiments, like I was rocking the boat or something.

I think the most realistic way this is played out is in the RPI's.
It might help the OP if you explained what RPI is especially good at this.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:56 PM   #9
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by Bogre View Post
Unfortunately, I tried to play a character who was mistrustful towards other races and close to outright racist on Threshold, and he constantly got characters of all sorts who used 'kick' and 'punch' socials on him and were quite outraged at such sentiments, like I was rocking the boat or something.

I think the most realistic way this is played out is in the RPI's.
Wow, thanks for sharing that.

No matter how often it happens, I still love hearing stories where the Threshold community reacts really well IC and embraces and engages a new player.

Sounds like your IC racism struck a nerve. Kudos to you and to the people who reacted appropriately.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:53 AM   #10
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Re: Enforced sexism?

It actually wasn't a positive experience of the game's RP, nor did I feel people reacted appropriately on the whole as they spammed kick and punch socials. It was one of the things which quite frankly turned me off from the game, but then again, perhaps the character I created was a tad too gritty for the environment there.

To Newworlds, I specifically mentioned the RPI's as a genre because most have racism secondary to the world's culture in some form or another.

Obviously the leading example would be Armageddon, where there is racism/class-ism/city-state-ism, however no sexism. Shadows of Isildur also had this to some extent between the good and evil sides. Black Sands, Southlands, and Harshlands also contain it to some extent. Atonement did whilst it existed, too, between humans and mutants.

As far as the RPPXP games go, Dark Isles, Inquisition, etc, I can't totally say as I've had less experience.

Last edited by Bogre : 04-18-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:02 AM   #11
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Re: Enforced sexism?

Sexism is a little hard to enforce when nearly all sexism is based on the assumption that men are physically stronger then women, thus women should just make babies and sandwiches or get a beat down.

And in a MUD, the only way to mimic this would be to give females a stat penalty. And since no Muds, especially RP Muds want a non-stop sausagefest. So, Other then non-enforced people calling certain sluts and whores type sexism, you won't find much sexism.

Otherwise whenever a male says, "Men or the protectors, women are the protected!" Any Female can prove him wrong with a beat down.

Last edited by Verbannon : 04-18-2013 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:57 PM   #12
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by Bogre View Post
It actually wasn't a positive experience, nor did I feel people reacted appropriately on the whole. It was one of the things which quite frankly turned me off from the game, but then again, perhaps the character I created was a tad too gritty.
Sounds like it was great RP on the part of the people who responded. I guess it can be hard to play the antisocial outcast. But I'm glad the people didn't cheese out and embrace you for it. That would have been poor RP on their part.

Anyway, I'm just thrilled to read another great story of awesome RP on the part of the Threshold community. 17 years and counting and they keep making me proud.

Thanks for sharing the story,
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:11 PM   #13
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by Verbannon View Post
Sexism is a little hard to enforce when nearly all sexism is based on the assumption that men are physically stronger then women, thus women should just make babies and sandwiches or get a beat down.

And in a MUD, the only way to mimic this would be to give females a stat penalty. And since no Muds, especially RP Muds want a non-stop sausagefest. So, Other then non-enforced people calling certain sluts and whores type sexism, you won't find much sexism.

Otherwise whenever a male says, "Men or the protectors, women are the protected!" Any Female can prove him wrong with a beat down.
Not Nesscarily. Pc's aren't your average people - having the theme dictate that woman are ~typically~ smaller and weaker without making changes to the code is enough. Having the occassional woman that can bitch slap men like it's nothing is fine. It's cool to have some sort of social stigma to try and rebel against. From that point you'd have to cross your fingers and hope that not too many people try to play the exception.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:46 PM   #14
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Re: Enforced sexism?

Well, it would have to be one of those sandbox MUDS where people are roleplaying just going about their lives.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:50 PM   #15
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Not Nesscarily. Pc's aren't your average people - having the theme dictate that woman are ~typically~ smaller and weaker without making changes to the code is enough. Having the occassional woman that can bitch slap men like it's nothing is fine. It's cool to have some sort of social stigma to try and rebel against. From that point you'd have to cross your fingers and hope that not too many people try to play the exception.
That doesn't really work. It's no fun to walk into your local bar and proclaim, "Boy! I just finished denigrating some inferior invisible female peasants five minutes ago. Now for a relaxing drink as I ignore the beings that actually appear on my screen and keep my mouth shut so the higher level female PCs don't get mad at me." Unless a mud is set up so female characters really can't (or really struggle) to attain power and respect, where women don't receive sword and magic training by virtue of being women, and everybody throughout the hierarchy, from the bar janitor to the king of the world laugh at people who try to roleplay strong-willed, fierce, independent thinking women, it's only a matter of days or weeks before some powerful female PC is leveled up and out there setting the standard. Then, who cares if all of the invisible female peasants are weak? But who wants to play an inferior character in a mud where inferiority is enforced anyway?
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:16 PM   #16
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by cruelcore View Post
Strange question - but I was wondering if anyone knew of any games with thematic sexism/racism/not being very nice/whatever.
Why would a MUD want to penalize women any further than they already are? They suck at PK, their innate drive for achievement is lower so they suck at that aspect of the game as well, so what rests is getting into the pants of the administrator to get ahead, a position that more often than not is already taken.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:22 PM   #17
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Sounds like it was great RP on the part of the people who responded. I guess it can be hard to play the antisocial outcast. But I'm glad the people didn't cheese out and embrace you for it. That would have been poor RP on their part.

Anyway, I'm 17 years.

Thanks for sharing the story,
Yeah, it might be great, if that's what he said. Except, you edited out the point. You see what I did there?

Here's what he posted:
It actually wasn't a positive experience of the game's RP, nor did I feel people reacted appropriately on the whole as they spammed kick and punch socials.It was one of the things which quite frankly turned me off from the game, but then again, perhaps the character I created was a tad too gritty for the environment there.

The bold part was WHY he felt it wasn't a positive experience. If that's what makes you proud, then I won't waste my time even reading the threshhold website.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:31 PM   #18
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Re: Enforced sexism?

To be fair to Threshold, I edited that bit you bolded in because I didn't want to make it an issue by adding it as a follow-up post. But your assumption about the whitewashing is nevertheless correct.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:51 AM   #19
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Re: Enforced sexism?

The last two posts are awesome because they show the difference between folks like Jazuella and folks like Bogre.

I don't even have to explain further because its so obvious.

/handshake Bogre

And yes, when I hear a story that I feel shows good RP on the part of our players, I am happy about it. Even if it wasn't the kind of RP someone expected or anticipated.

There are a handful of really top notch RP environments out there. Threshold has been one of them for ~20 years. The creative brilliance I've observed over the years is one of the main things that makes me love my job.

So yes, I'm both a fan and a cheerleader for our awesome players. I owe them that and much more.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:36 AM   #20
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Re: Enforced sexism?

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That doesn't really work. It's no fun to walk into your local bar and proclaim, "Boy! I just finished denigrating some inferior invisible female peasants five minutes ago. Now for a relaxing drink as I ignore the beings that actually appear on my screen and keep my mouth shut so the higher level female PCs don't get mad at me." Unless a mud is set up so female characters really can't (or really struggle) to attain power and respect, where women don't receive sword and magic training by virtue of being women, and everybody throughout the hierarchy, from the bar janitor to the king of the world laugh at people who try to roleplay strong-willed, fierce, independent thinking women, it's only a matter of days or weeks before some powerful female PC is leveled up and out there setting the standard. Then, who cares if all of the invisible female peasants are weak? But who wants to play an inferior character in a mud where inferiority is enforced anyway?

The players really make up the world. Really - there's nothing wrong with having badass women in this theme we'd be discussing. Only if the exceptions began to outnumber the mundanes, would it be a problem. Idealy it'd work like this. Badass female is known for being a badass and because of that people keep their opinions to themselves around her, but otherwise snicker at her behind her back. Discrimination does not have to be overt. She's largely isolated aside from one or two others who sympathize and/or in the same position. Manly men do their best to avoid having to fight alongside her because it'd be an insult to their masculinity to be saved by a mere woman. Womanly women avoid her because she's "not normal" and they don't want to be associating with those who seem to be flaunting social norms.

Just how I'd see it working, anyway.
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