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Old 04-18-2013, 04:59 PM   #21
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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I'm with Jazuela and ShowTroll on this. It is always puzzled me, why would people go on about their private life to random strangers, who happened to play the same game, let alone about their sexual preferences.
Read the article please. You clearly didn't.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
No, I didn't read the article. I
While I appreciate the honesty, you really should read the whole article before commenting in a thread about an article. That's basic.

I'm sorry you have such dislike for Threshold despite the fact you've never played it. Maybe if you played it, it would bring so much happiness and joy to your life you'd be a more pleasant person on the forums.

Just a possibility!

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Old 04-18-2013, 05:21 PM   #22
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

The article, itself, is far less interesting than the issue as a whole. The article is actually kind of vague and generic. It doesn't outright say that either of the authors, or anybody, was specifically harassed or subjected to anything serious on a mud, for being gay. It makes it sound like the worst they faced was an uncomfortable environment, where ignorant teenagers tossed around gay slurs as general insults, not even directed at them or any individual gay person specifically, but they were possibly afraid that if these loud idiots knew they were gay, they'd be made fun of. And we all know that being made fun of on the internet is pretty hard to deal with.

I'm not exactly finding myself moved or passionate by the previously unknown fact that there are idiots on the internet who make other people uncomfortable. I'm not thinking to myself, "Holy crap! We need to do something as a community to be more tolerant and accepting!"

Jazuela's on target that this article was about 65% Threshold publicity, and 35% content. I like Threshold and like to see you going out of your way to creatively market the game to all circles, all over the internet, so I'm not complaining about the fact. But let's be honest. Gay gamers in 2013 is simply not an issue. I've played hundreds of muds. Seriously. Hundreds. Nothing remotely rising to the level of an issue regarding any homosexual player ever occurred in my sight.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:01 PM   #23
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Snowtroll: Have you ever played League of Legends or anything on XBOX Live?

About every 5 seconds you'll hear someone get called a "stupid cocksucking fag" or "worthless jew fag" or some far worse variation thereof.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:07 PM   #24
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Snowtroll: Have you ever played League of Legends or anything on XBOX Live?

About every 5 seconds you'll hear someone get called a "stupid cocksucking fag" or "worthless jew fag" or some far worse variation thereof.
Not my scene, so no. Yes, that's technically offensive. But nobody in that example is calling a gay person a stupid cocksucking fag, because he's gay. That's just stupid kids using "fag" as a generic insult. When I was 13 or so, I liked to show off all the swear words I knew because I thought it made me look cool. In more modern times, calling people gay is what the stupid kids do. Do proud homosexual gamers really run crying from MMOs because of teenagers and idiots? Who aren't even making fun of them, specifically?

"OMG! These people call everyone gay and fag! They're not pro-gay! I can't possibly be myself around them because they'll make fun of me! Boo hoo!" It's the freaking internet! There are idiots on the internet. Suck it up.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:32 PM   #25
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

I'm Jewish, and I'm more offended by your use of the vulgarity on a public forum that doesn't have a content warning, than I am by being called a Jew. What's even MORE offensive, however, is that you would think that I, as an adult, would be moved to try and DO something about your childish antics. Really - mature adults know better than to be bothered by a bunch of immature testosterone-happy kidlets espouting ignorant statements on the internet.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:13 PM   #26
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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I'm Jewish, and I'm more offended by your use of the vulgarity on a public forum that doesn't have a content warning, than I am by being called a Jew.
Because context doesn't matter at all, right? Absolutely ridiculous. Now it is clear that you are without question, trolling.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
What's even MORE offensive, however, is that you would think that I, as an adult, would be moved to try and DO something about your childish antics. Really - mature adults know better than to be bothered by a bunch of immature testosterone-happy kidlets espouting ignorant statements on the internet.
The above paragraph doesn't even make sense. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or anything I've posted.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

Now shuffle off back under your bridge, please.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:23 PM   #27
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Not my scene, so no. Yes, that's technically offensive. But nobody in that example is calling a gay person a stupid cocksucking fag, because he's gay.

...

There are idiots on the internet. Suck it up.
Yeah, they suck it up by going elsewhere. That's the whole point. Why be a part of a gaming community with that kind of loathsome behavior. It is unpleasant and it isn't enjoyable.

And simple slurs being spewed is just the tiny tip of the iceberg. Other posters here have explained other facets of it, like not being able to participate in the OOC side of a community, or being ridiculed when you do, or having to hide facts about yourself because if you don't you'll get mocked or abused.

If I was playing an online RPG and common discourse of the community was that white men were the source of all evil in the world, enslaved people, abused/raped women commonly, were all racists and sexists, etc., I'd leave. It wouldn't matter that I'm not physically or emotionally harmed by their language and don't agree with any of it. Its just not enjoyable to deal with that crap constantly, and I wouldn't want to feel like I had to pretend not to be a white male. I'd rather just leave and go somewhere else where I didn't hide who or what I was to avoid abuse.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:31 PM   #28
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Didn't read this whole thread or article but all I can say is that I know we have a few gay players on MUD, and they've never had any issues to my knowledge (I've known one of them for 13 years). We have extremely strict rules about sexual harassment including homophobic slurs. It's worked well for us.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:06 AM   #29
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Didn't read this whole thread or article but all I can say is that I know we have a few gay players on MUD, and they've never had any issues to my knowledge (I've known one of them for 13 years). We have extremely strict rules about sexual harassment including homophobic slurs. It's worked well for us.
Glad to hear it.

It really is primarily an act of will on the part of the administration.

You can nip it in the bud pretty easily if you take a firm stance and hold to it consistently.

Its nice that there are many MUDs out there who do this. It is one of the many ways that MUD communities tend to be superior to graphical MMO communities.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:30 AM   #30
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

I've never been that attached to the OOC game involved in muds. I log in, I play the game, I'm not looking for real life friends or contacts, I'm not looking for a community that likes and accepts me, and I log out and go back to my real life. All the same, I have pretty low expectations of humanity in general.

When someone says,"Online multiplayer game," here's the sample MMO converation snippet I'm imagining:
_______________________________

B1gK0K: i raped u good ur such a fag

D1k101: hahalol only cuz ur so cheep quit using gay tricks n00b

Flowerking: Excuse me, but I'm gay and it's really offensive to use homophobic slurs like that. Please stop or I'm going to report you to the administration.

B1gK0k: haha stfu queer!

D1k101: omglol! r u srsly gay?!?! FAAAAAAGG!!!

Princezz914: hey stop! its not c00l to be rasist ppl are born gay!!!

B1gk0k: i fukked ur mom! want to cyber Princezz?

D1k101: lolololol!!!!

Flowerking: That's it! I'm never playing this game again!

B1gk0k: by fag!!!
_______________________________

Admittedly, that conversation would drive me away from a game, too, but my departure would have nothing to do with homosexuals feeling unwelcome.

Anyway, when someone says, "internet game," that's what I picture as the common user group. That's all over the internet, and if that's making grown gay men cry because they can't fit in with that select group of internet users, they should aim a little higher.

I'd parse this whole thing as: Threshold, a place for grown ups where you won't see idiocy like that. Rather than Threshold: Where homosexuals are accepted.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #31
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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I'd parse this whole thing as: Threshold, a place for grown ups where you won't see idiocy like that. Rather than Threshold: Where homosexuals are accepted.
I'd agree with that statement 100%, and that's exactly how I'd like people to perceive Threshold.

A place for grown ups where you won't see idiocy like your excellent example.
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Old 04-20-2013, 10:06 AM   #32
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

[21:18:24] [Grort @ 4060]: i would like to go to japan when i done or egypt
[21:18:27] [HeadLess @ 4060]: Hong kong :O
[21:18:32] [HeadLess @ 4060]: wtf
[21:18:37] [JoeButler @ 4060]: your home country is?
[21:18:58] [AragorIII @ 4060]: Hong Kong is absolutely immense compared to UK
[21:19:07] [HeadLess @ 4060]: why ya think so?
[21:19:08] [Grort @ 4060]: probably
[21:19:12] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you like those gayhats?
[21:19:23] [HeadLess @ 4060]: ah soz, those are vietnam's ;p
[21:19:42] [JoeButler @ 4060]: vietnam is beutiful i want to go there
[21:20:06] [JoeButler @ 4060]: and whos the 'gayhats'?
[21:20:22] [HeadLess @ 4060]: ?
[21:20:25] [JoeButler @ 4060]: home country headless?
[21:20:34] [JoeButler @ 4060]: your earlier remark^
[21:20:35] [HeadLess @ 4060]: not who is but what is
[21:20:43] [AragorIII @ 4060]: my sister visited vietnam...said there were markets selling all this old american war atuff and dead soldiesrs kit...
[21:20:45] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you don't know those hats they'r wearing?
[21:21:24] [JoeButler @ 4060]: whose hats?
[21:21:48] [HeadLess @ 4060]: vietnamese

snippet of conversation i had when i logged onto a game, on public channel. Real character names, and this stuff happened every day for about 2 months. This is from a community the size of Aardwolf.

[21:35:14] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: stop with that
[21:35:23] [HeadLess @ 4060]: where are you from D4l?
[21:35:27] [morganalefey @ 4060]: if i want to say that i say s*** or f*** is that ok?
[21:35:32] [Grort @ 4060]: i'm starting to think that the invance isn't worth the 'celebrations' afterwarsd AKA arguments
[21:35:38] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: i am from connecticut
[21:35:46] [HeadLess @ 4060]: and how old ar u?
[21:35:55] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: 21
[21:36:07] [morganalefey @ 4060]: where is that ? what state is that?
[21:36:09] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you are Jewish? Christianist?
[21:36:11] [JoeButler @ 4060]: Headless your age now
[21:36:13] [HeadLess @ 4060]: islamist?
[21:36:21] [Grort @ 4060]: *Christian
[21:36:23] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: not answering any more questions

Another example, but he isnt the only person with these issues. I'm white but have a black character in the game, and told to do a newbie bidding and 'dance for me black man'. He wasnt banned, and prior person was banned only for posting sexual material on channels.

[19:30:37] [oohlala @ 6]: you cant stop me faggots
[19:30:42] [oohlala @ 6]: learner couldnt

And on this occasion, he was banned...for creating an alt just to spam...

You get these issues in all MMOs. Basically, i think they should make people build in the CEOP button into all MMOs, and give CEOP jurisdiction in MMOs/MUDs.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:40 AM   #33
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

I'm unable to even follow these. Though I should point out that he etymology of the word 'gay' makes it close to the word 'flamboyant' but was also on occasion to mean the same thing as 'sissy girl man' or 'emasculate'. And was originally used as an insult towards the gay community before the gay community decided for some unknown reason to have a 'word claiming' campaign where they decided to claim the word 'gay'. Not an uncommon occurrence. It only partially worked. Only relatively recently has the word 'gay' started to lose its real meaning and became a term for a general insult. Though its still often used to mean 'emasculate', especially by comedians, especially, especially by gay comedians.

E.G. "You should have seen these dude's tie! Man, here I thought I was gay!" *Rimshot*

So are you absolutely sure these people on these games of yours aren't just gay comedians?
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:47 PM   #34
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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I'm with Jazuela and ShowTroll on this. It is always puzzled me, why would people go on about their private life to random strangers, who happened to play the same game, let alone about their sexual preferences. Why would I need to know that you prefer men, women, goats or vacuum cleaners? Who cares? If you are so intent to make your private life public, why won't you tell everybody your credit card number instead? At least in latter case it may have any use for somebody outside of questionable reward of being able to call somebody a homophobic slur.
You have got to be joking that the level of privacy inherent with letting someone know the gender of your significant other is the same as divulging credit card information.

Also, it's not a true statement that you're playing with random strangers. And to say that one should just shut up and not talk about themselves in a social environment is by definition telling someone to stay closeted to protect themselves. This is not a healthy stance to promote. People should feel safe in communicating with others in a social settings. The statement "who cares?" is definitely a proper attitude, because it shouldn't be a point, but the fact is that it is and that's what needs to be addressed. If you prefer to game with other people and just treat them as if they're just a really good AI NPCs and not interact with them as actual people, that's cool, and perfectly within your rights, but people are social animals and when interacting with other people they like to feel that their "what-should-be-non-issues" are treated as such. And in fact, a lot of the problems are not necessarily someone being specifically targeted and attacked, it's the general atmosphere and the comments that someone who is gay endures by virtue of chatter surrounding them which is unacceptable but often goes ignored by those with the ability to correct it.

Last edited by Gesslar : 04-20-2013 at 02:01 PM. Reason: expanding upon comments
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:25 PM   #35
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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So are you absolutely sure these people on these games of yours aren't just gay comedians?
Ok, *bighugs* that made me laugh. You get 50 Internet Points.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:35 AM   #36
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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You have got to be joking that the level of privacy inherent with letting someone know the gender of your significant other is the same as divulging credit card information.

And in fact, a lot of the problems are not necessarily someone being specifically targeted and attacked, it's the general atmosphere and the comments that someone who is gay endures by virtue of chatter surrounding them which is unacceptable but often goes ignored by those with the ability to correct it.
I think you make two excellent points. I am also glad you made them. I gave up on page one. I am not sure if people just really love to debate, or if there's some secret prize I never got because I never won the internet, or if the people who are arguing against treating others with dignity and kindness are just failing as human beings, but I did give up. I'm glad you didn't.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:42 AM   #37
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Actually debating is fun and although I don't share this opinion, I think I will point out that you just made a strawman. They aren't arguing against treating people with dignity and respect, they are saying it is petty to get upset over a lack of dignity and respect and arrogant to assume this is specifically a homosexual issue. And I think I saw some subtext suggesting that Threshhold is trying to create a non-existant issue to make itself look better.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:46 AM   #38
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Actually debating is fun and although I don't share this opinion, I think I will point out that you just made a strawman. They aren't arguing against treating people with dignity and respect, they are saying it is petty to get upset over a lack of dignity and respect and arrogant to assume this is specifically a homosexual issue.
Ok.

Debating is not fun for me. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. I think I was clear enough for anyone reading with the aim of understanding as opposed to the aim of ... what ever your post was aiming at.

Telling people to suck it up if people are being hurtful whether it's a race issue a gender issue a sexual identification issue or any kind of issue is unkind where I come from.

And the constant use of the word strawman is meaningless, knee-jerk and annoying.


What does your post even mean?
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:12 AM   #39
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

The point of my post was to correct the misrepresentation of your opponent's argument so the debate might reach a satisfactory conclusion rather then a white peace.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #40
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Then we have a strong philosophical difference, because I don't think the schism, between treating someone badly and allowing other people to treat someone badly, is particularly vast.
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