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Old 04-21-2013, 09:40 AM   #41
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

And finally, what would have happened if they didn't like the article and just went on with their day rather than going out of their way to be unpleasant?
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:31 PM   #42
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by Fifi View Post
And finally, what would have happened if they didn't like the article and just went on with their day rather than going out of their way to be unpleasant?
Apparently the internet would break if that ever happened.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:48 PM   #43
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by Fifi View Post
And finally, what would have happened if they didn't like the article and just went on with their day rather than going out of their way to be unpleasant?
Well then there would be no reason to have a thread on it. And its never a bad thing to debate varying opinions, thats how you learn and become smarter.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:53 AM   #44
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Butler’s above logs illustrate why this whole thing is just dumb.

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Originally Posted by Butler View Post
[21:18:58] [AragorIII @ 4060]: Hong Kong is absolutely immense compared to UK

[21:19:12] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you like those gayhats?
So the “big issue” in this first example is that one user, “HeadLess,” who can barely string six words together in a coherent sentence, used the word “gayhats” in reference to people from Hong Kong, which, in addition to being offensive to people from Hong Kong, is also offensive to gay people since gayhats is clearly a term meant as something negative that includes “gay” as the first part, implying that being gay is negative, too.

HeadLess wasn’t harassing gay people or even talking about any gay people, individually or as a group. He just used a term that, I guess, makes the environment less comfortable for homosexuals? Because if this barely literate guy will use the term gayhats in reference to people from Hong Kong, then it can be safely assumed that he’d definitely make fun of you for being gay if he knew. And probably everyone else on the server would join in, too, because any server where a barely literate idiot doesn’t get banned for a single use of the term gayhats in reference to Hong Kong is clearly a very anti-gay environment.

We should apparently all be moved to action knowing that it’s difficult for homosexuals to fit in among barely verbal cretins like HeadLess.

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Originally Posted by Butler View Post
[21:35:38] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: i am from connecticut
[21:35:46] [HeadLess @ 4060]: and how old ar u?
[21:35:55] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: 21

[21:36:09] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you are Jewish? Christianist?

[21:36:13] [HeadLess @ 4060]: islamist?

[21:36:23] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: not answering any more questions
The “big issue” here is that by asking “Darkness4life” a series of personal questions, one of which asked whether Darkness was Jewish, Christianist [sic], or islamist [sic], HeadLess clearly implied that at least one of those answers would be an incorrect, negative answer, responsive to which HeadLess would most likely make fun of poor Darkness4life. And probably everyone else on the server would join in, too, because any server where a barely literate idiot doesn’t get banned for asking personal questions about religion is a free-for-all environment full of bigotry.

HeadLess wasn’t harassing gay or religious people in this instance. He just bothered the hell out of another user with personal questions in a way that, I guess, makes the environment less comfortable for everyone?

We should, again, all be moved to action knowing that it’s difficult for religious individuals to fit in among barely verbal cretins like HeadLess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butler View Post
[19:30:37] [oohlala @ 6]: you cant stop me faggots
[19:30:42] [oohlala @ 6]: learner couldn’t
The “big issue” here is that one particular user, “oohlala,” used the term “faggots” as a generic insult directed toward everybody logged in, when everyone knows that faggot is primarily a derogatory term used against homosexuals, thereby offending gay people even more than non-gay people to which the insult was directed. Oohlala wasn’t harassing gay people or even talking about any gay people, individually or as a group. He just exhibited behavior common among just about every teenager in America, all across the internet.

But, I guess, this use of the term faggot makes the environment less comfortable for homosexuals? Because if this barely literate guy will use the term faggots as a generic insult, he’d definitely make fun of specific gay people if he knew they were gay. And probably everyone else on the server would join in, too, because any server where a barely literate idiot doesn’t get immediately banned for use of the word faggot is clearly an extremely anti-gay environment.

I’m stupefied that homosexuals want to fit in among barely literate idiots. I’m a smart guy with a lot of degrees, and what I’d like to think is above-average comprehension and use of the English language. I can barely follow those conversations. This is the big issue? That people who can barely connect adjacent words in a manner that communicates a thought use language that indicates they may not approve of homosexuality?

Last edited by SnowTroll : 04-22-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:28 PM   #45
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by Butler View Post
It a very nice article... You might as well discriminate tall people, short people, people with a certain hair colour, accent or nationality.
Um, that goes on all the time Butler. The only difference is that blonds, short people, and tall people don't have an activist group to defend them .
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:07 AM   #46
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by ForgottenMUD View Post

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Jazuela, are you trolling, kidding, playing devil's advocate, or are you really this ignorant
That was uncalled for. Is it how you treat people who have ideas different from yours in Threshold RPG?
I'll answer your question with a question.

Were you being deliberately dishonest in the way you edited your quote of me?

What I actually wrote was:

Quote:
Jazuela, are you trolling, kidding, playing devil's advocate, or are you really this ignorant of what online gaming communities are like for gay gamers?
There's a huge difference between calling someone just plain ignorant and asking if someone is ignorant of some specific thing. One is an insult and the other is a legitimate, non-insulting way to ask if someone is unaware/doesn't know about something.

I should be able to safely assume a higher than average level of reading comprehension and nuanced language understanding on a forum devoted to text games.

I invite you to read the thread with an open mind if you want to see posts that are "uncalled for". HINT: They aren't made by me.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:58 AM   #47
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Jazuela, are you trolling, kidding, playing devil's advocate, or are you really this ignorant of what online gaming communities are like for gay gamers?

It makes for a pretty miserable and hostile environment when (as is the case in most online game communities) people engage in gay-bashing and constantly spew anti-gay slurs both IC and OOC.
Just wanted to say - if homophobia is thematic in the mud it's being portrayed on ICly, then kudos to those players. It isn't easy to be an anti-social jerkass who you OOCLY think is wrong in their opinions. But that's what roleplaying is. It's your character being a homophobe, not you.

If it's not thematic to be homophobic ICLY when someone clearly is being homophobic, deal with it ICLY.

And it's always been my opinion that OOC communication is bad. I mostly avoid games with OOC channels like the plague. People are homephobic. People are racist/sexist whatever. It's their opinion, and opinions are subjective and can't be right or wrong. Even if someone isn't trying to be all up in your face with their controversial opinions, it does leak through in OOC conversations. And when people get upset on an OOC level, it tends to leak through ICLY.

Last edited by cruelcore : 04-23-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:59 AM   #48
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
I'll answer your question with a question.

Were you being deliberately dishonest in the way you edited your quote of me?

What I actually wrote was:



There's a huge difference between calling someone just plain ignorant and asking if someone is ignorant of some specific thing. One is an insult and the other is a legitimate, non-insulting way to ask if someone is unaware/doesn't know about something.

I should be able to safely assume a higher than average level of reading comprehension and nuanced language understanding on a forum devoted to text games.

I invite you to read the thread with an open mind if you want to see posts that are "uncalled for". HINT: They aren't made by me.
That in no way changes his point. You are still dismissing your opponent with a series of ad hominems designed to attack his character rather then address his argument.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:00 PM   #49
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

You guys are really discussing trivial semantics at this point.

Making a big stink about how use of the phrase "ignorant" of X, rather than a different word or phrase such as "unaware of the fact," has a derogatory connotation isn't all that different than making a big stink about people using the word "gay" in place of other adjectives. And it's discussing the discussion rather than the merits or content thereof.

Honestly, this recent stink isn't about the stink anyway. The content is about 25% discussion, 75% anti-Threshold propaganda. "OMG! I will never waste time on Threshold, which must be a seriously crappy game, because the guy who runs it said something I didn't like on an online forum! Other people should do the same to make their discontent known! Down with Threshold! Because I don't like the game! Rawr!" I guess that's a fair response to the initial post, since the whole "Threshold is a great and accepting place for homosexuals" article has about a 30:70 ratio of content versus Threshold advertisement. But come off it and add something to the discussion. At least aim for a 50-50 content to agenda ratio.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:16 PM   #50
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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Originally Posted by Verbannon View Post
That in no way changes his point.
It changes it completely. Read for content.

Its like the difference between:
I helped my Uncle Jack off his horse
and
I helped my Uncle jack off his horse.
In written language, a few words or some capitalization can make a pretty huge difference.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:26 PM   #51
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

It's ok to not like things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI

As one of the authors, I don't pretend that everything I write will appeal to everyone. That's ok, I am no megalomaniac, and I do try to adhere to the very specific message presented in the very brief video linked above (it's not exactly NSFW but it does contain a swear word, but not an egregious one).

What I do see, however, is that people seem to be taking a very [read: almost unbelievably] narrow stance on the topic. Where the article references "online social gaming" at large, this thread seems to have a great many "on my MUD where nobody talks to anybody OOC, this isn't a problem". It should go without saying that in a game where EVERYBODY is closeted, then it's not exactly going to be an issue, shouldn't it [read: duh]. So, let's talk about where this article is relevant, in games where people actually do interact beyond the blinders of IC-only games, that is to say, the majority of online social gaming, which would be truer to the context of this article.


Quote:
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And finally, what would have happened if they didn't like the article and just went on with their day rather than going out of their way to be unpleasant?

Last edited by Gesslar : 04-23-2013 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:57 PM   #52
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

@SnowTroll
I was taught that it was wrong to use slurs. So, I don't use them. The word black people don't like people using? I don't use it. The slur that is used for Jewish people? I don't use it. I don't even use the American word for Inuit. These are the right things to do. So, as a homosexual, I do find it offensive to be the subject of, or witness to a slur that is derogatory to my sexuality and which is inarguably socially sensitive. I don't feel 'not casting slurs' is an incredibly high standard by which to hold a person.

Inaction is action. Not working to make one's social gaming environment free of bigotry is a statement in itself. And there are places people can go, thankfully, where these things aren't tolerated. And that's good.

I almost feel the need to apologize that you have difficulty understanding why someone might shy away from environments where bigotry is a problem, but perhaps that's the Canadian in me. [insert Nationalistic slur here]
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:38 AM   #53
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
It changes it completely. Read for content.

Its like the difference between:
I helped my Uncle Jack off his horse
and
I helped my Uncle jack off his horse.
In written language, a few words or some capitalization can make a pretty huge difference.

No, it isn't. Its not a change in meaning. To call him ignorant regarding what the discussion is about, is exactly as bad as calling him ignorant in general. As its a callous dismissal of his opinion.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:19 AM   #54
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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@SnowTroll
I was taught that it was wrong to use slurs. ... I don't feel 'not casting slurs' is an incredibly high standard by which to hold a person.

Inaction is action. Not working to make one's social gaming environment free of bigotry is a statement in itself. And there are places people can go, thankfully, where these things aren't tolerated. And that's good.

I almost feel the need to apologize that you have difficulty understanding why someone might shy away from environments where bigotry is a problem, but perhaps that's the Canadian in me. [insert Nationalistic slur here]
I buy into that Penny Arcade comic in the article. You're assuming a level of humanity that just doesn't exist in many people. We will never, ever completely be rid of bigotry, just like we will never, ever completely be rid of idiots (if anything, we're on the Idiocracy path, and things are getting worse).

I've long since given up trying to fix people, and am comfortable just letting others be wrong and stupid. That's their right, and it's my right not to bother with them. The correct solution to this problem is what's being done already: if a game's not fun enough to ignore or tolerate the presence of idiots, quit patronizing those games that are full of idiots. A strong second would be to just ignore them. When an idiot spouts off about faggots this and that and how gay something is, and all he gets in return is silence, or at best, equally idiotic people commenting back with incomprehensible gibberish, that's a far better and more effective alternative than trying to incite some sort of public outcry, in the hopes that a group of complainers, and maybe a petition or two, will convince a server admin to start policing the banter on an MMO.

Why do people want to fit in among the least common denominator of illiterate internet users anyway? I'm straight and don't want to fit in with them. I'd be downright offended if any of them accepted or liked me. I would think there's something wrong with me.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:00 PM   #55
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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No, it isn't. Its not a change in meaning. To call him ignorant regarding what the discussion is about, is exactly as bad as calling him ignorant in general. As its a callous dismissal of his opinion.
Are you a non-native speaker or are you just ignorant about the way the English language works?

There is a tremendous difference. Please study up.

This is a forum for TEXT GAMES. I shouldn't have to dumb down the way I write to avoid people misinterpreting something as an insult when it isn't one.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:05 PM   #56
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Wow, sorry for coming late to the party guys (I was on a semi-break from TMS and mudding for a while), but I have a few things I'd like to point out based on my experience in the many MUDs I've visited and hung out in over the years.

I think I need to preface this by saying that I don't hate homosexuals and I don't tolerate hatred or violence against them.

1. I've never seen a MUD that tolerated hostility towards homosexuals. I've seen people in different places say bad things about homosexual people, but I've never seen it get so bad that whoever was in charge of enforcing rules wasn't doing anything about it. I don't think there's a single active MUD out there where the Admin is going to respond with any sort of hateful rhetoric or allow it to go on unhindered, unless the Westboro Baptists finally set up a MUD somewhere (GodHatesEveryoneExceptUsMUD?).

2. I -have- seen MU* environments which basically all but put themselves on the Pride bandwagon. If you say anything contrary to what the homosexual rights movement believes in an OOC discussion, you're done: get out of our game. You're a bigot, full stop (to use a British term).

I've seen this go as far as a cleric character getting muscled out of a game because the cleric would not perform an in-game same-sex wedding ceremony because the cleric didn't agree with same-sex marriage, though the cleric had performed male/female in-game weddings before. The cleric never told the couple that they were going to Hell, or that the cleric hated homosexuals, or anything of the sort; just denying the service was enough to leave a black mark, even though other clerics were willing and available.

3. No one ever seems to want to stick their necks out for people who happen to have a religious belief. Even if everyone on a game's OOC channel is proudly atheist, it won't stop anti-religious discussion from coming up sooner or later. The discussion of religion may or may not have anything to do with a religion's take on homosexuality, it doesn't matter. If you're a Catholic, people will say that your priest touches kids. If you're a Jew, people tell you that you hoard money and are trying to take over the government. If you're a Mormon, they ask how many wives you have. If you're a Muslim, they say you're going to blow something up.

#3 is endemic to the Internet; I've often said that people on the Internet have no place in commenting on the religious beliefs and practices of others, because 9 times out of 10 they have no idea of what they're talking about and are usually basing their incredulity and insult on something they don't properly understand. Still, there's a wide audience for anti-religious rhetoric and they will eat up anything except what the religious say in their own defense, regardless of how wrong the critic was about the religion and how right the defendant is.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:33 AM   #57
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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3. No one ever seems to want to stick their necks out for people who happen to have a religious belief.
One need look no further than the most recent "jesusdiedforusall.com" thread on mudconnector for the reason why. The site owner has put his personal religious banner in the ad rotation because he can, and because nobody can stop him. The poster iovandrake has heavily implied that gays are animals and shouldn't be allowed to marry. I don't know about you, but I don't even want to be associated with that, much less stick my neck out for them.

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Old 07-19-2013, 12:35 PM   #58
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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One need look no further than the most recent "jesusdiedforusall.com" thread on mudconnector for the reason why. The site owner has put his personal religious banner in the ad rotation because he can, and because nobody can stop him. The poster iovandrake has heavily implied that gays are animals and shouldn't be allowed to marry. I don't know about you, but I don't even want to be associated with that, much less stick my neck out for them.

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So you're saying that all religious people act like those people and are therefore deserving of any insulting comments wherever they go?
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:41 PM   #59
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

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While I can't speak from experience, I can definitely imagine most muds (being fairly non-policed, anything goes environments) being full of teenagers who use "gay" as the adjective of choice for nearly anything undesirable, and "fag" as the ultimate insult for anybody with any negative quality.

Yeah this is a memory from a long time ago (and honestly I don't remember it being an issue then), but you're not going to be finding very many teenagers on muds these days.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:28 PM   #60
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Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers

Oh good someone brought this thread back to life. More straight white male privileged viewpoints definitely needed.
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