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Old 08-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #21
Jazuela
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by SnowTroll View Post
It just makes me really mad. It's like when you get jury duty or go to a public library or public park, and you go to take a crap, and the bathroom is the worst place you've ever seen, because the general public is just plain disgusting, and you'd forgotten how disgusting because it had been awhile since you really needed to go in a public place.
Okay then you really DO understand the overall sentiment of what happened there. You just don't realize it.

Replace "go to a public library" with "vote for your favorite mud by linking to TheMudconnector's vote link." Then, replace "go to take a crap" with "visit the community forums." Then replace "discover it's the worst place you've ever seen" with "someone has puked all over MY religion - or lack thereof - by denigrating this hall of community with their religious agenda, which doesn't even have a vague reference to the community's point of existence - which is to say - text games."

And now get up your righteous indignation about it, and butt heads with the site owner, and get all your buddies to do the same - rile up strangers even, to start posting there, though they hadn't posted there in years - if ever - and really **** off the site admin enough to get him to shut the whole thing down.

That's what happened. Exactly the same thing *you* feel happens, when you take a crap in a public bathroom, expecting it to be sacred ground and not filled with the vileness of humanity.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:33 PM   #22
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post

Frankly, the biggest negative to the TMC forums shutting down is some of the biggest trolls there might head over here. Ugh.

Like Mold Spores released into the wind, Trolls will travel everywhere--and not just here.

I largely stayed out of this because I am of the mind that anyone has the right to speak their mind freely, and, no matter what, I know full well that people will be offended by what is said--and therefore arguments will become reguardless of those for and against the initial message.


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Old 08-02-2013, 08:42 PM   #23
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Zivilyn View Post
Drizzt got all ****y and said basically that Iccy hadn't devoted as much because of # of posts by him vs other users. I personally lol at that, considering his contribution the muds has been endless...
No, it was more of a reminder that the sites content was largely community-created, as opposed to say - being his blog.

Which is true, users of the site created the vast majority of the content on TMC.

As such completely disregarding what those users want is, in my opinion, wrong. My goal was to point out that although he had the right to do as he pleased that didn't necessarily equate to it being the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
And now get up your righteous indignation about it, and butt heads with the site owner, and get all your buddies to do the same - rile up strangers even, to start posting there, though they hadn't posted there in years - if ever - and really **** off the site admin enough to get him to shut the whole thing down.
I wouldn't really say any of that happened.

The banner in fact largely took a back seat to people arguing with IovanDrake about religion in general. Icculus and the banner quickly got lost in the topic and were no longer a primary focus of the discussion.

No one really butted heads with Icculus for the most part till he deleted the thread, then reverted the site to undelete it, and then started banning people for being opinionated.

Last edited by Fizban : 08-02-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:59 PM   #24
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
It is sad, but what I'd like to know is how the heck did he get that banner to even show up.

I ask because we advertised there before and our banners rarely if ever showed. I look around TMC and see tons of banners that show up on other pages in TMC that are completely defunct MUDs that haven't been active for 10 years.

Houston, I think TMC has a bigger problem than Jesus Banner.
Couldn't tell you - I never look at the banners :-P
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:20 PM   #25
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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It is sad, but what I'd like to know is how the heck did he get that banner to even show up.

I ask because we advertised there before and our banners rarely if ever showed. I look around TMC and see tons of banners that show up on other pages in TMC that are completely defunct MUDs that haven't been active for 10 years.

Houston, I think TMC has a bigger problem than Jesus Banner.
I'm pretty sure I've seen the NW banner displayed on (at least) a few occasions.

Though, my ability to ignore ads (and other stuff) is almost Jedi-like. Maybe
this is why modern advertisers are resorting to new (extreme) tactics like
full-screen ads and other gimmicks, the attention space is getting more crowded
and many people are forced to be more selective about information in general
(not just ads).

It used to be the most obnoxious internet ad was that rapidly
convulsing/blinking gif animation that just demanded urgent attention (, I
still see those ads btw), or the one that was underhandedly forged to resemble
a Windows dialog box (with the OK button).

Nowadays, ads will supplant the whole web page and force you to click 'No
Thanks.'

I must admit, occasionally I'll notice a keyword or something that will grab my
attention, this must be why modern marketing is very geared toward targeting
peoples interests. This seems more effective than annoying (or tricking)
people. But I guess it depends on their marketing strategy, which may be to
establish brand recognition or something other than immediate sales.

Sorry, does this thread still have a (relevant) subject? I think TMC is back
up. Maybe we can start a thread on TMC discussing TMS discussing TMC. Now
there's a thread that could potentially last forever.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:46 PM   #26
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Achon View Post
Sorry, does this thread still have a (relevant) subject? I think TMC is back
up. Maybe we can start a thread on TMC discussing TMS discussing TMC. Now
there's a thread that could potentially last forever.
TMC is up, but in a read-only manner, no one can post.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:03 PM   #27
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

Oh, I thought they were discussing a new forum policy or something.
Maybe that's an older thread.

I haven't actually attempted to post anything there.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:12 AM   #28
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

The thread just barely started to stray in the wrong direction, if you ask me. It's hard to talk about the TMC situation in general terms without talking about the content of the heated discussion over there. Two people here already took measures to make sure the readers here know which side of that discussion was the more offensive one, and another person started naming names.

Forgetting the whole religion issue, I think the core question is: Do we, as internet users, have a right to control the type of content we see and are exposed to? Meaning, if I were to go to a news website expecting to read today's headlines, and I saw a banner ad for a porn site (let's assume no graphic images, just maybe slightly provocative ones, with a clear indication that the ad linked to a porn site), when I wasn't looking for or expecting pornographic material, should I be offended and feel as though I've been violated somehow? Let's say I have a moral objection toward porn, but on the whole, I respect everyone else's right to make their own decisions regarding that industry, so I'm not offended by the nature of the material, specifically, more by the fact that I feel I have a right not to have that type of material slap me across the face unexpectedly. Is this something I ought to make a stink about, because my rights were violated?

I think most people would say yes, because pornography is one of those special things that is, per se, offensive. A lot of places have laws about that type of content and those types of ads.

Let's say I go to a website for hardcore roleplaying muds, and while I'm there, I see a banner ad for a hack and slash mud that doesn't tolerate roleplaying. I click on the ad and waste time reading about this mud, before I figure out that it's a non-rp mud. I went to that roleplaying mud website expecting to read information about roleplaying muds, and against my will, was presented with an ad for a different type of game. I wasn't looking for or expecting that information. I was even fooled by it. I'm not offended, specifically, by the fact that some people enjoy non-rp muds, but I didn't look for or want that information in the ad. It was shoved down my throat, and I feel tricked. Is that something I ought to make a stink about?

I think most people would say no. I think even if that ad for a non-rp mud was an ad for a grocery store, or a webcomic, or anything else I wasn't interested in, people would say it's not a big deal.

Where things went wrong in TMC is that if you're a devout atheist (by "devout," I mean one of those atheists who doesn't just not ascribe to religion, but strongly believes that religion is wrong, stupid, and is a bane in the world, so you zealously advocate against religion as strongly as religious people advocate for their religion), then religion is closer in your mind to pornography than to an ad for an unrelated type of computer game. And if anyone dares to speak anything even slightly against religion, you get equally...let's just call them passionate...types responding.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:02 PM   #29
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by SnowTroll View Post
Forgetting the whole religion issue, I think the core question is: Do we, as internet users, have a right to control the type of content we see and are exposed to?
I don't recall anyone saying Icculus didn't have the right to host the banner, in fact most posters went out of their way to point out that it was his site and he could do as he wished.

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Let's say I go to a website for hardcore roleplaying muds, and while I'm there, I see a banner ad for a hack and slash mud that doesn't tolerate roleplaying.
So then you ask "Why is a banner for this mud on the banner rotation? It's not at all RP related". Is your question acceptable? The owner of the RP website says that he's the one who added it, because he thinks its a great mud and that everyone should play it - that's his right, it's his site, and nobody disagrees. But do other members of the site have the right to give feedback if they disagree with the owner's decision? Or should they be expected to remain silent and vote with their feet?

Which response would you rather have as a site owner? How about as a mud owner? Would you rather your players spoke up when they disagreed with a new feature you'd added? Or would you rather they all just left and found another mud?
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:14 PM   #30
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

The website owner has exclusive control over what takes place on their site.
Website users have the power to refuse services offered, and to seek
alternatives (assuming there exists alternatives).

It's not in a websites interests to drive off it's users.

If the website owner refuses to let users voice their opinion on it's forums,
then he's deprived them of an important service.

However, there are more personal factors to consider. TMC has given users many
good years of service and has been particularly generous by allowing users to
promote their own services with free banner advertisements. The owner is
obviously very dedicated to this community. Nobody is perfect. Everybody goes
through changes in their lives and tolerance is especially important at times
like these.

The demise of TMC would be a loss for the whole MUD community. Hopefully this
will not be allowed to happen.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:47 AM   #31
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

So my take away from this is that only a scant few people had a significant issue with religion, or with the people who have an issue with religion. Those people went on for many pages, being offensive to each other. But the primary thing that ticked people off wasn't religion or the debate, but the website owner saying, "I don't care what you people in the community think. I'm doing what I want. You don't have the power here, I do. You don't matter and I don't care if you stay or go."

That's not, exactly, what was said, but that's likely what a lot of people heard.

Last edited by SnowTroll : 08-06-2013 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:27 AM   #32
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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So my take away from this is that only a scant few people had a significant issue with religion, or with the people who have an issue with religion. Those people went on for many pages, being offensive to each other. But the primary thing that ****ed people off wasn't religion or the debate, but the website owner saying, "I don't care what you people in the community think. I'm doing what I want. You don't have the power here, I do. You don't matter and I don't care if you stay or go."

That's not, exactly, what was said, but that's likely what a lot of people heard.
I think your understanding of the situation improved a lot in the course of this discussion.

Anyone who believes that Icculus was a victim should remember that users, no matter how opinionated, don't have the power to shut down forums. Those who have the power must also accept the responsibility.

My best guess is that Icculus has been looking for years for a pretext to quit, and finally found one that would do.

The fact that the pretext had to do with a religious banner is just a distraction.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:42 PM   #33
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I think your understanding of the situation improved a lot in the course of this discussion.

Anyone who believes that Icculus was a victim should remember that users, no matter how opinionated, don't have the power to shut down forums. Those who have the power must also accept the responsibility.

My best guess is that Icculus has been looking for years for a pretext to quit, and finally found one that would do.

The fact that the pretext had to do with a religious banner is just a distraction.
That's an interesting insight.

One question though, wouldn't it be easier to pass this responsibility to
another, than to waste so much time and energy?

Which is exactly how things seem to have been left.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:41 PM   #34
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Achon View Post
That's an interesting insight.

One question though, wouldn't it be easier to pass this responsibility to
another, than to waste so much time and energy?

Which is exactly how things seem to have been left.
I believe that in such cases the song and dance is primarily for the sake of preserving one's own self-image. No-one likes the thought that something they were deeply passionate about and poured countless hours into for many years is just not as exciting anymore. It's typical to want to displace the guilt associated with abandoning something that used to define you in such a big way.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:53 PM   #35
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by plamzi View Post
I believe that in such cases the song and dance is primarily for the sake of preserving one's own self-image. No-one likes the thought that something they were deeply passionate about and poured countless hours into for many years is just not as exciting anymore. It's typical to want to displace the guilt associated with abandoning something that used to define you in such a big way.
Or it could just be exactly what he said it is. That priorities have changed in his own life and the whole incident has made him realize how disconnected from the MUD community he feels, so now it's time to find a new owner.

A separate thread here where people are so quick to discard his own statement and search for the "real reason" just reinforces that.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:10 PM   #36
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Or it could just be exactly what he said it is. That priorities have changed in his own life and the whole incident has made him realize how disconnected from the MUD community he feels, so now it's time to find a new owner.

A separate thread here where people are so quick to discard his own statement and search for the "real reason" just reinforces that.
The reason I opened the thread here, was because the forums there had been closed at the time. No one had any access to read them. So no one had the ability to find out what "events" Icculus was referring to, in his announcement stating that he had closed the forum. I hadn't read the forum in weeks, and had no idea that the subject of his jesus ad had escalated to such heights. I knew it existed, but I figured it was resolved. Obviously - it wasn't. But I had no way of knowing that was WHY the forum was shut down. So I came here and brought it up, hoping someone would clue me in. And a day or two later, Iccy re-opened the forum for read-only access, and I was able to read about it for myself. By that time, though, this thread had already been posted and responded to.

That's why *this* thread exists.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #37
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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That's why *this* thread exists.
Don't think anyone would have a problem with this thread being here. It's big news in the MUD community and there's probably been mention of it on many MUD forums.

My post was more aimed at the apparent need to find the real reason for wanting to pass on control of the site.

Personally, I'll take "Religion recently became very important in my life and has put me at odds with this community" over "I've been secretly wanting to stop doing this for years so thanks for an excuse".
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:38 PM   #38
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Personally, I'll take "Religion recently became very important in my life and has put me at odds with this community" over "I've been secretly wanting to stop doing this for years so thanks for an excuse".
The two are not mutually exclusive, so it could be one, or the other, or a mix of both, or a mix of both plus more that we know nothing about and can't usefully speculate.

But if we accept Icculus' explanation at face value, we should all be worried for him: He successfully ran a site for 15 years in which he must have strongly disagreed with a good number of opinions posted there. So, to suddenly see himself as being "at odds" with a largely imaginary multitude of people with differing views (the MUD community is anything but a coincidental gathering of fervent atheists) is evidence that he is no longer capable of having, let alone facilitating, truly open debate.

If I may venture a guess, the current state of TMC will last a long time, since the site requires little to no maintenance when the forums are frozen. Beyond that, I see several possible scenarios, of which passing the torch to someone else seems the least likely at this point.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:54 PM   #39
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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If I may venture a guess, the current state of TMC will last a long time, since the site requires little to no maintenance when the forums are frozen. Beyond that, I see several possible scenarios, of which passing the torch to someone else seems the least likely at this point.
How exactly is him doing exactly what he's stated that he intends to do the least likely scenario?

I also certainly do not believe he was consciously looking for a reason to quit - though I might agree that he was potentially unhappy with the amount of time running the site was taking up, which made quitting an easier decision to come to when presented with conflict.

Last edited by Fizban : 08-06-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:22 PM   #40
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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How exactly is him doing exactly what he's stated that he intends to do the least likely scenario?
For the 4 years in which I have been active on TMC, he's been absent 98% of the time. He's had plenty of time to delegate limited powers to other moderators and devs, which would be an ideal test for a future admin, yet he did not. I find it best to base my suppositions on what people do, rather than what they say.

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I also certainly do not believe he was consciously looking for a reason to quit...
I agree with you. There is nothing to suggest that he was consciously looking for an excuse to quit. The operative word being "consciously". If he was aware of it, he would have already taken steps, such as for example delegating powers.

Maybe this marks the beginning of the transition process for him, and if it does, he himself has said it will be a long one. I can only hope he has the good sense to see it through, as it will be a pity to see the site festering, or worse, going down.
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