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Old 08-07-2013, 03:45 PM   #81
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
TMS and TMC get a lot more traffic for their listings. MudBytes has more active discussion forums, but people don't send their players there multiple times per day to click on voting links.
The Mudbytes community is a very small subset of the MUD community. Basically it is a clique that splintered off from TMC/TMS. That's not a slight. A lot of sub-communities form that way.

Raw # of posts is pretty meaningless. That number is easily inflated by people who like shouting into an echo chamber. Mudbytes also includes the biggest trolls from TMC, which makes it a pretty hostile environment for anyone outside that clique.

TMS is a much larger swath of the entire community of game developers, gamers, client developers, and outsiders with interest in MUDs.

Not to mention TMS has a much cleaner and easier to read forum.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:53 PM   #82
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
The Mudbytes community is a very small subset of the MUD community. Basically it is a clique that splintered off from TMC/TMS. That's not a slight. A lot of sub-communities form that way.

Raw # of posts is pretty meaningless. That number is easily inflated by people who like shouting into an echo chamber. Mudbytes also includes the biggest trolls from TMC, which makes it a pretty hostile environment for anyone outside that clique.

TMS is a much larger swath of the entire community of game developers, gamers, client developers, and outsiders with interest in MUDs
TMS has always been a lot more "cliquey" in my experience. I think it's quite clear you don't actually frequent MudBytes since you seem to have a lot of misconceptions about the people that frequent it and the content that's posted on it.

TMC's four biggest trolls of late (Iovan, Ozma, Jodah, The_Fury) do not frequent MudBytes.

That or your idea of a "troll" is: "Someone that has views different than mine" (Not saying that is how YOU define a troll, but it definitely seems to be how a lot of people unfortunately do.)
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #83
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I'm not making drama, I'm posting my opinion. You're the one taking offense with it and creating drama.
Uh huh.

You aren't making drama and yet you changed DarkOzma's name to Icculus multiple times in your post, implying he's a sockpuppet.

I think we're seeing exactly why the forums on TMC and some other sites are such unproductive cesspools. Certain folks there make it a hostile environment for huge sections of the general community, as well as people outside the community who have interest in MUDs.

But they sure do have plenty of free time to jack up those post counts!
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:08 PM   #84
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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I don't typically frequent TMS, but "Who's Fizban?" is certainly not a sentiment that many people on TMC or MudBytes would echo.

Though I'm certainly not claiming that that makes me "famous" by any means either.

Though it is nice to see that Ozma thinks so highly of 4 Dimensions and sees the need to badmouth it when I hadn't made any mention of it in any regard.
Ahem... I think Ozma was referring to TBAMud, Fiz.

Not that I mind some of the... ehrrrrrhm... "fame" rubbing off on 4D. We can take it.

On a more serious note, in case anyone is actually still interested in what happens on TMC, rather than discussing semantics, you can check the News section there, to learn that the Forums are soon going to open again, with a new and more modern software
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #85
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Uh huh.

You aren't making drama and yet you changed DarkOzma's name to Icculus multiple times in your post, implying he's a sockpuppet.

No, that certainly wasn't the intent, hadn't even realized I'd done so till after reading your post. Not sure how the post got made to read that way, but I'd imagine copy/paste errors on my part to be the cause. Either way it's now fixed.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:54 PM   #86
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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You can argue this until you're blue in the face Fizban. It won't change my opinion on the matter. I just think one should be humble in understanding that running a site requires a certain degree of expertise. I don't pretend to tell a doctor how to do his job. It's not my place because I didn't get my medical degree. Therefore, I don't feel I have earned that right out of respect for everything that doctor has sacrificed.

That doesn't mean the lines of communication with feedback should be broken. It just means, there are more constructive ways to send feedback on a end result rather than explicitly defining what one should do or passing judgment their expertise, why they do certain things that you may have no understanding to the reasoning and so on.

That's just me though. My logic, my feelings on the matter.
So, if a doctor prescribes antibiotics for a sore throat without first doing a strep culture, and it turns out to just be a minor allergic reaction to it and now your immune system has been compromised because you took antibiotics you didn't need - you shouldn't judge the doctor?

Or how about when a surgeon operates on the wrong body part - does "woops, my bad," cover it for ya?

If an auto mechanic, who is professionally trained to take care of your old Ford - tells you that you need a new engine, charges you $1400 for a rebuild, and puts it in backward - do you just suck it up and thank him for ruining your car?

Oh I know - the garment industry. You buy a brand new suit at Walmart. An hour before the wedding, you put it on, and then go to be your exquisite self as the Father of the Groom's handsome brother in his shiny new suit. You go raise your hands in applause - and the arm seams rip off. Do you judge the manufacturer, or do you just chalk it up to having particularly flabby arms that day?

Do you truly NEVER question anything? Because if that's the case - I'm a professional bridge-builder and boy do I have a deal for you in Brooklyn!
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:10 PM   #87
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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No, that certainly wasn't the intent, hadn't even realized I'd done so till after reading your post. Not sure how the post got made to read that way, but I'd imagine copy/paste errors on my part to be the cause. Either way it's now fixed.
Fair enough.

We all make mistakes!

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Old 08-07-2013, 07:04 PM   #88
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Molly View Post
Ahem... I think Ozma was referring to TBAMud, Fiz.

Not that I mind some of the... ehrrrrrhm... "fame" rubbing off on 4D. We can take it.

On a more serious note, in case anyone is actually still interested in what happens on TMC, rather than discussing semantics, you can check the News section there, to learn that the Forums are soon going to open again, with a new and more modern software
I love 4D! I can't imagine anyone talking abad about it.

As for new Forums on TMC. I'm all for that, I really didn't like their old forum format.

We've actually never been part of this MudBytes forum, but one of the staff at Ateraan is checking it out. I think it is very worth reviewing and seeing if it has a potential. Hoping it won't be a mistake.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:42 PM   #89
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
The Mudbytes community is a very small subset of the MUD community. Basically it is a clique that splintered off from TMC/TMS. That's not a slight. A lot of sub-communities form that way.

Raw # of posts is pretty meaningless. That number is easily inflated by people who like shouting into an echo chamber. Mudbytes also includes the biggest trolls from TMC, which makes it a pretty hostile environment for anyone outside that clique.

TMS is a much larger swath of the entire community of game developers, gamers, client developers, and outsiders with interest in MUDs.
This is completely not true. I was rarely ever on TMC/TMS. MudBytes also includes professional programmers, digital artists, musical artists, literary artists and a more awesome people.

There are plenty of people to read our forums daily and we have a fiercely loyal user base. Most times a developing issue pops up people go to MudBytes. The last couple MUD protocols spawned from topics in those forums that was developed by various client developers (probably the same ones posting here were posting there...). Extremely jaded to only talk about a small part of the MB community.

Last edited by Davion : 08-09-2013 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:27 AM   #90
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Molly View Post
Ahem... I think Ozma was referring to TBAMud, Fiz.

Not that I mind some of the... ehrrrrrhm... "fame" rubbing off on 4D. We can take it.
Might have been. I wouldn't consider either MUD to be "my MUD", but he surely meant one of the two since they're the only two MUDs I'm in any way associated with.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:16 PM   #91
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
So, if a doctor prescribes antibiotics for a sore throat without first doing a strep culture, and it turns out to just be a minor allergic reaction to it and now your immune system has been compromised because you took antibiotics you didn't need - you shouldn't judge the doctor?

Or how about when a surgeon operates on the wrong body part - does "woops, my bad," cover it for ya?

If an auto mechanic, who is professionally trained to take care of your old Ford - tells you that you need a new engine, charges you $1400 for a rebuild, and puts it in backward - do you just suck it up and thank him for ruining your car?

Oh I know - the garment industry. You buy a brand new suit at Walmart. An hour before the wedding, you put it on, and then go to be your exquisite self as the Father of the Groom's handsome brother in his shiny new suit. You go raise your hands in applause - and the arm seams rip off. Do you judge the manufacturer, or do you just chalk it up to having particularly flabby arms that day?

Do you truly NEVER question anything? Because if that's the case - I'm a professional bridge-builder and boy do I have a deal for you in Brooklyn!
I think you're confusing bad experiences with people, products or services with having the right to judge whether or not those people, products or services are of a certain standard professionally.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion about those things based on a single experience or multiple experiences. That's ideally what separates the good from the bad in the eyes of the end user (i.e.: the consumer).

Experiences however, do not give you the right to make up the minds of everyone who has experiences with those people, products or services nor does it give you the right to judge them on a professional level IMHO.

For example, a doctor may make a mistake in diagnosing your problems. That same doctor may also prescribe something to you that instead helps the problem, makes it worse. Your understanding of the doctors approach to resolving that problem is normally conveyed to you in layman terms, but the medical reason may actually be a lot clearer to those in the medical field.

Regardless of the approach and the end result (which is worse in this example), you are not a medical professional who can professionally judge the doctor overall. You simply had a bad experience in one instance with a particular doctor who may or may not have made a mistake. Because you are not well versed in what is or is not a mistake in the medical field, how could you ever really judge if that one bad experience was truly wrong doing in the first place? That's what the medical board is for, and I assure you, the board or whoever is not composed of random people off the street who are experts simply because they watched every episode of ER or like your example, a group of people who had bad experiences with doctors.

How does that translate to this discussion? The same applies for any profession really. Game development more specifically. Just because you play games, had both good and bad experiences while gaming, does not make you a game developer. People who actually make a living off gaming or even develop games as a hobby, have a certain level of expertise over those who do not develop games period.

That's why I have always emphasized that feedback, good or negative, should always be conveyed as experiences (i.e.: i couldn't kill a goblin with magic missiles) rather than dictation (i.e.: you should adjust magic missiles to 10 damage from 5 so I can kill this goblin.)

Therefore, if you have never ran a MUD site. Who are you to dictate someone who has?

Last edited by Famine : 08-09-2013 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Too blunt!
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:03 PM   #92
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Therefore, if you have never ran a MUD site. Who the hell are you to dictate someone who has?
If you have never been me, who the hell are you to dictate to someone who has? You have never been me. Therefore, by your logic, you have no right to challenge my thoughts, my opinions, my judgments about anything at all. The only time you will ever have that right, is when you become me. Which - you will never do.

I, on the other hand, have worked in mud development. I, on the other hand, have run a forum. I, on the other hand, have been a file librarian for one of the most populated commercial muds in mudding history, and I, on the other hand, have been head builder on two different muds. I have also been playing text-based multiplayer games since the advent of the old BBS systems, since 1991, the year before the commercially-available Windows 3.1x was available to consumers.

I'd say that gives me a "right" to judge with regards to the topic. And it disqualifies you from the "right" to challenge me.

So perhaps before you lecture others on what they can and cannot do, what they should or should not do, and who the hell they are and are not to do what they do, you might find out - who the hell they are, first.
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:36 PM   #93
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Originally Posted by Jazuela View Post
If you have never been me, who the hell are you to dictate to someone who has? You have never been me. Therefore, by your logic, you have no right to challenge my thoughts, my opinions, my judgments about anything at all. The only time you will ever have that right, is when you become me. Which - you will never do.

I, on the other hand, have worked in mud development. I, on the other hand, have run a forum. I, on the other hand, have been a file librarian for one of the most populated commercial muds in mudding history, and I, on the other hand, have been head builder on two different muds. I have also been playing text-based multiplayer games since the advent of the old BBS systems, since 1991, the year before the commercially-available Windows 3.1x was available to consumers.

I'd say that gives me a "right" to judge with regards to the topic. And it disqualifies you from the "right" to challenge me.

So perhaps before you lecture others on what they can and cannot do, what they should or should not do, and who the hell they are and are not to do what they do, you might find out - who the hell they are, first.
Whoa, calm down there sunny. You responded to my post and I offered my retort for further clarification as food for thought. My original post on the matter was my own opinions and not meant to be offered as some sort of challenge towards anyone nor an attempt to lecture others. It's just a mere opinion as this is a open discussion forum the last time I checked.

Last edited by Famine : 08-08-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:44 PM   #94
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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My original post on the matter was my own opinions and not meant to be offered as some sort of challenge towards anyone nor an attempt to lecture others.
Your early posts definitely came off as being an attempt at lecturing others.

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Originally Posted by Famine
Oh, come off your horse now. You have no right to judge him as a person period. If you didn't like the direction TMC was heading, then get off your ass and create your own MUD site that's better.
You have no problem judging and lecturing others, only a problem with other people doing so.

Not to mention that a lot of the people you've tried lecturing and claiming have no business criticizing anyone, have done the things required to have an educated opinion on the matter.

For example, I've never ran a large MUD-based forum, but I have administrated non-mud related forums with far more posters (Forum Tribalwars.co.uk opened in 2009, has more posts than TMC, TMS, and mudbytes combined) and far more activity than TMC has ever had. I've also ran smaller MUD-related forums.

Those are both similar enough to running TMC to have an educated opinion on the matter. I doubt I'm the only person in this thread who's ran sites larger than TMC either, yet you have no problem lecturing and judging us for being opinionated.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:25 AM   #95
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Re: FYI Mudconnector forums shut down

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Your early posts definitely came off as being an attempt at lecturing others.



You have no problem judging and lecturing others, only a problem with other people doing so.
It wasn't supposed to be as my original post was directed at one, not multiple.

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Not to mention that a lot of the people you've tried lecturing and claiming have no business criticizing anyone, have done the things required to have an educated opinion on the matter.
I was just clarifying my stance to those who responded including yourself. I hate leaving things vague if someone has a question or a followup.

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I doubt I'm the only person in this thread who's ran sites larger than TMC either, yet you have no problem lecturing and judging us for being opinionated.
Unfortunately, that's not even remotely true.

As my original post has taken us off the beaten path, I'll just leave it at that. Again, it's just my opinion on a set of comments relating to TMC and the hard work of the administrator of TMC. I feel the site has been a landmark for this community and I was merely voicing said opinion as a way to stick up for someone who has done a great service to us all.

Last edited by Famine : 08-09-2013 at 01:32 AM.
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