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Old 05-11-2005, 09:09 AM   #1
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Many MUDs are RP-optional and don't have a real framework in place for enforcing character immersion for players. But I'd like to hear from players of that sort of game who have tried to inject a little character development and story into the experience. How did it work out? How did other players react, positively and negatively?
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Old 05-11-2005, 10:41 AM   #2
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I am not part of the specific group to which you ask the question, nevertheless, I play Aardwolf, which heavily tends towards leveling, getting better equipment in order to be able to compete against other characters in many different fields offered by the mud. Now, the "RP-role" I have seen in game is to set guidelines for existing or new clans, for the people requesting a new clan have to submit a story, background, role of the clan in the mud, etc. Some clans also require RP-like stories in order to join their ranks.

Now that you know more or less what the environment is, I must say that people who really enjoy role-playing (and I have only met a handful in many years of playing) are usually looked at like they were a bit weird. The reasons must be obvious, since a roleplayer would not be killing the "sparrow" hundreds of times without a good reason for doing it. This, and certain game requirements (as minimun quests to remort, etc) make it very hard if not impossible for a pure role-player to play fully RP-immersed. Now the brigth side, I think, is that middle-point roleplay is somehow abundant, being a large community, each person really assumes a role for their characters, the character develops a "personality" and there are things that characterize that character. I say this knowing fully that I cannot compare to RP like the one you would need in Arm or many other MUDs, but the fact is that if I am a Pirate Captain, I act like that somehow when I interact with others, I am bloodthirsty, therefore PKeager, etc etc. Others, like the Bards, hold public performances every now and then, are pacifists so they do not join PvP fights, etc. So, within limits, RP is present.

The short version is, a pure RPer would be looked at as a weird thing, mainly because if the environment is not set for RPing, and the norm is not "being-a-RPer" many will not understand the motif for someone to go through all the "annoyance" of "developing" their "character".

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Old 05-12-2005, 10:49 AM   #3
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That's a pretty interesting phenomenon. Has anyone else tried this?
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:53 PM   #4
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"Roleplaying" on Non-RP MUDs (hereafter refered to as H&S, since that's what we're talking about) is possible. Of course, so too is cooking a meal in your car. It's just not the best place to do so.

I have found that most RPers are looked poorly upon by non-RPers on H&S MUDs and subject to ridicule, abuse, and harassment. That's one of the reasons I left H&S forever many years ago.

As for MUDs that claim to integrate aspects of both RP and H&S, it's like being pregnant. Either you are or you aren't. Anything in between is really just delusion or propaganda (ie, "Unlimited levels! Easy XP mobs! Great RP!" ads). H&S and those who are solely interested in it will, in most circumstances, interfere with sustained RP (you're RPing in a town and some H&Ser comes by and slaughters everything in sight, only to return hours later and do the exact same thing).

Point is, if you want great RP, go to a MUD that is designed around RP (RPIs in other words). If you want H&S, play a H&S MUD. Playing two games isn't that hard (certainly not horribly impossible), but trying to RP on a H&S is terribly difficult to achieve all the time and with any great amount of quality and acceptance.

Take care,

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Old 05-12-2005, 02:01 PM   #5
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Yep. That's generally my feeling on it too. But I suspect that somewhere out there, you've got games that *do* have a fairly nice integration of both. It's like seeking a perpetual motion machine or a virgin in a cathouse ... tough to accomplish, but not beyond the realm of utter possibility.
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Old 05-12-2005, 02:13 PM   #6
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Well, I don't like RPing in RP-encouraged games.  I hate to sound like a RP-elitist, but sometimes I don't really want to RP in a MUD unless it is a RPI.  I say this because, in my experience, it seems that  if there are levels to gain and gold to loot, everyone will be doing that  instead of RPing.

For example, I played on a game that was supposed to feature H&S, RP and PvP.  Most of the RPing elements were there, but for some reason everyone was out trying to gain levels.  This was a fairly new game and it opened before the highest hunting areas were completed.  So when the players reached the highest available level, they complained because they couldn't level any higher.  There was a lot to and a lot of players and interact with. This game had the various "psychic" channels that everyone in the game heard. But, except of OOC, they were silent.

Now, I know someone is going to say "Why don't you just start up some RP" Well, to answer that I did. When I got tired, I just left to my lovely RPIs.
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Old 05-12-2005, 02:16 PM   #7
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I've seen this phenomenon on MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, which has RP-specific servers ... and, by and large, no one really RPs.
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Old 05-12-2005, 04:38 PM   #8
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I find the whole two facets only thing quiet befuddling. Are you saying there is only RPI and everything else is just H&S?? does that mean because I have never played an RPI beyond getting bored of the first 10 very isolated and boring minutes while I try find a purpose for being that I am not a roleplayer. Sorry I just feel like every time I see these kind of comments that I am being called a non roleplayer because I choose to not play RPI. And i feel it like a bit of a slap in the face to my rp abilities because I am not some mindless moron who tears around an area killing everything in sight then idles waiting for 'repop' so I can do it all again.

I like to play in worlds where I will be granted another stab at life by a divinity or similar, maybe it doesn't make sense to a hardcore eliteist but to me it means I can really throw myself into a character and perhaps take a few more risks in how I interact with other characters. Do I PK? never, but somehow I end up playing characters that can be confrontational and question others... So yeah, I like that saftey net of more than one life as without that my time as anay character would be short lived.

So I will hunt a bit, I will stop and roleplay with those who cross my path, by and large the majority of others will also keep in their role. PK only happens when a conflict arises and the situation calls for it, not as a experience gaining tool. I play muds where there are other ways to gain skills and experience aside from just bashing. And even bashing can be a roleplaying experience when a group sets out for a hunt together

There are many many different muds out there, all have a different feel. I've found RPI's where people were standing around talking ooc and I was killed for interrupting the conversation with an 'excuse me sir, could you please direct me to an inn or somewhere I might find a meal' end of the roleplay experience in that realm. It really comes down to the administration what they find acceptable and where they are prepared to put their foot down counts for a lot

I try not to judge anymore based simply on the RPI or RP encouraged, labels. I have seen the good and bad in both, and I have to say I have seen the majority of memorable roleplay in rp encouraged games. RPI just doesn't do it for me

Ok that was kind of a long winded way of trying to say there is MORE out thre than just RPI or H&S nothing is black and white and just because it is not RPI doesn't push it to the other extreme.

Now then, roleplay in a H&S mud.. tried that once and got the weirdest looks possible in a text based game, well at least I imagine they were weird on the other side of the screen. Then someone so kindly whispered to me 'We don't do that here' *laugh* I say if the world does not already support it, don't try
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Old 05-12-2005, 05:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Kaleisha @ May 12 2005,16:38)
I find the whole two facets only thing quiet befuddling. Are you saying there is only RPI and everything else is just H&S?? does that mean because I have never played an RPI beyond getting bored of the first 10 very isolated and boring minutes  while I try find a purpose for being that I am not a roleplayer. Sorry I just feel like every time I see these kind of comments that I am being called a non roleplayer because I choose to not play RPI. And i feel it like a bit of a slap in the face to my rp abilities because I am not some mindless moron who tears around an area killing everything in sight then idles waiting for 'repop' so I can do it all again.

<snip>

I'm sorry. I'm terrible with words. I didn't really want to offend anyone who does find RP in MUDs over than RPIs.  I can only judge from the experiences I've had and so far, for me, it wasn't the best.  Maybe I've just been to the wrong games so far.
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Old 05-12-2005, 05:24 PM   #10
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I used to play a game that advertises itself as an RP game, but isn't. At all. Not even remotely. But having no prior experience to any kind of RP game (D&D tabletop, live action, or muds), I had nothing with which to compare it. And so I went along blissfully unaware that I was not roleplaying to the extent that I was able.

Then I left that game, when I discovered other games out there that were more RP-friendly. I went back to the first game a year later...and was "poofed" in on by a mentor who promptly greeted my character by name and said he was there to help me.

I figured I'd get into character immediately so the mentor would know I don't need help, and asked how she knew my name. And my character behaved suspicious, looked around for the spy who told this total stranger who she was...

And the response? The mentor whispers to you, "I can read it on the screen, your name is right there."

So much for mentors who exist to help new players get into the "roleplay" aspect of the game (in addition to helping with mechanics, which they happen to be pretty good at).

I walked out that day and never went back. It was such a disappointment that people were SO used to -not- roleplaying that they didn't recognize it when it bit them in the face.

I don't know how anyone can roleplay in a non-roleplay game. I find it disruptive to try and start plotlines, only to have someone tell me to chill out it's just a game and ask me what level I am. I find it agonizingly annoying to attempt to have my character behave like a person living in the fantasy world created for my entertainment, only to have people complaining about "their weather" (they claim it's an IC way of saying there's game lag on their end). Or to jump around happily and proclaim, "Only 2,000 more pages til I reach 36 trains!" (they claim THAT is an IC way of saying they need 2k experience points til they level again).

The very notion of it makes me shudder with disgust, and you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that kind of atmosphere.

HOWEVER...I don't begrudge ANYONE the right to enjoy H&S type games that have little or no roleplaying, or that feel that masking OOC references with IC vernacular constitutes "Staying IC." To them, that's what it is, and that's fine. They enjoy it, and it works for them, and it's what they're looking for in entertainment. I've found another venue, the RPI venue, and I'm much more comfortable with that and couldn't ever return to the first game, except perhaps as a goof for a day.
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Old 05-12-2005, 05:49 PM   #11
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And the reasons to not want to even think about trying a RPI again continue here. OMG no wonder people find 'roleplayers' to be eliteist snobs. I shall now crawl back into my tiny little hole of H&S disillusionment and pretend I never heard this. I shall continue to enjoy the roleplay I experience in NON RPI muds and if one person happens to slip and mention something about their 'weather' I won't let it ruin my day, it's a game something to enjoy and not a test of ultimate perfection

And again I say, the code does not a roleplaying game make. It is the people who inhabit the world that make it either an enjoyable experience or a waking nightmare.

Now to get this back on topic, it can be fun bringing some roleplay into a game that is already semi receptive to it, in fact it can be rewarding upping the level of rp if the majority of players are open to the experience. After all some may not even know that better exist and will enoy the new twist on their experiences. But there are just those places where any kind of rp is not going to fly,people enjoy playing theose games for what they are, in fact many will play them to escape from the rp element. You can usually tell within a few minutes if a game is suited to your tastes or receptive to the idea of roleplay though
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Old 05-12-2005, 07:03 PM   #12
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wotmud.org has a pretty good blend of RP and HnS. Alot of people will wander around, levelling mindlessly until someone starts to RP with them, then they'll follow along. If you can deal with fifty Aes Sedai tugging their braids repeatedly and the same, cookie-cutter, stoic warder, then this is a good place to blend that HnS and RP that you crave.

Just got tired of half-measures, myself. I play muds so I can immerse myself in a role. If I want to talk about baseball, the merits of Coke vs Pepsi, or the irritation cause by Trojan rubbers, I can do that offline, with my RL friends, or over AIM. While I'm logged into a mud, though, I really -do- want to pretend I'm a half-elven desert rider, or a club-wielding goblin raider. I want to create my own, believable story.

If I'm deep in a tavern scene, I don't want someone to pop in, slaughter the bartender, loot the corpse, and wander off to find another. That just ruins the entire mood for me, so I stay away from places that aren't RP required.

*shrugs* I'll never play Hack and Slash muds because, well, it's not my style. I want immersion and to be surrounded by other believable characters. If that makes me elitist or arrogant, so be it. I'll never come into your mud and force you to RP with me, so by all means, stay out of my mud if you have no wish to RP.
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Old 05-12-2005, 07:49 PM   #13
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You have to shop around...each mud has it's own personality & RP level. Now I prefer to roleplay, over H/S, but I don't have the time in R/L to play on some of the RP required muds. For example, I had a goblin in Shadows of Isildur, which is a RP required mud - no global channels, no OOC, permadeath, etc. Now the RP is excellent, but I don't have the free time necessary to get involved with that world in order to succeed. However when you try to RP in a H&S, you takes your chances that you will find other players willing to RP. I remember turning off some player who kept talking "in character" about movies. My character, an orc barbarian, tried to give her a hint by asking " Whut be moovie?? Kin ya eat it? Where its lair?" She finally gave up & moved on. Sometimes you just have to turn on "deaf" or "quiet" & only speak in character, & hope the other players will play along. As far as Imms, or newbie helpers beaming in to help/assist when you first start playing, you have to take it with a grain of salt...Look at it from their point of view...they don't know if you're a veteran mudder or if you haven't a clue, so they try to find out. I just say advise them while I'm new, I prefer to find out about their mud myself instead of being lead around, & they will generally leave you alone. I find also that writing a description is not usually required on H&S muds, but is a good signal to the other players that you are RP oriented when you have one. I find I can tell within the first hour or so how serious the RP is, just by listening to the different channels, then I toggle quiet, & play on. One beef I always had is the "tell" command. For example, on Carrion Fields, you gain more experience in groups so you will get a "tell" from another player of the same race but who is on the otherside of the world, asking to meet up with you to group. Now since when is instant communication possible across the world without a cell phone?? So I toggle deaf, & the problem goes away.
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:15 PM   #14
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Any more thoughts on this topic?
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Old 05-28-2005, 09:57 AM   #15
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Not to improperly bump a 'dead' topic, but Brody asked. ;>

In playing an-RP "encouraged" MUD, I must say, we are probably NOT the best environment for a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore RP player. There is no real opportunity for full-bore RP, because every new player WILL be greeted, usually by name, on public channels. We've had RP'ers stop by, and it usually lasts all of 10 to 30 minutes. ;>

It is very difficult for the populace on my game to adapt to an RP'er. Our HnS ways are just too ingrained, and the fact that eq doesn't save at logout (for GOOD, solid, in-game reasons, mind you) often forces the 'regulars' to really try and help newbies to understand 'how things work HERE.' This does NOT lead to an immediate immersion in the type of RP other places offer.

I know that our several of our admin over the years have mourned the lack of true RP opportunities on the game. I myself mourn that the true RP crowd only gives us 20 minutes, because I'd like to see more of 'em stick around. But, sadly, we're not to their taste, and I can't blame 'em. I don't give *their* games over 40 minutes, m'self, so, how can I complain? ;>

I do think that RP-encouraged games offer the same types of history, racial and guild/clan type affiliations, and basic structure for low-level RP, or long-term RP, but immediate immersion is sadly not 'feasible' most of the time. Player interaction is not 'rewarded,' and Imms are not actively involved in the comings, goings, and doings of the mortals.

But I've seen many players who spoke in vernacular, much like our Pirate friend earlier in this thread. They added an enormous dimension to the game, and their voices are missed greatly. However, we DO tend to annoy true RP'ers, because everything under the sun is chatted about everywhere from rooms to global channels. We non-RP types tend to ruin the immersion experience for the hardcores. But I've seen RP'ers just ignore all of us, and continue on RPing for years, developing characters who were Guild leaders, and inspirations to many of us.

Slog, Slayfist, Flp, Elros, Quex (not that you are likely reading this, heh)... I miss y'all. You showed me that RP *CAN* exist in RP encouraged environments, despite all the chatter. Thank you.
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Old 05-28-2005, 01:18 PM   #16
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Greetings all!

I just like to add a comment from Prof1515, cause well, as Kaleisha mentioned it, you can't limit the Mud universe with a black'n White dualism.
!Of course a colorfull balance between words and numbers, roling and playing is possible! Now it all depends from your base,code and players.
Well, got it in head...
But sure, first you'll got to remove levels, numbers, rigid classes and names (short desc), refusing OOC.
Dartmud managed it rather well...
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Old 05-28-2005, 02:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Kaleisha @ May 12 2005,18:49)
And the reasons to not want to even think about trying a RPI again continue here. OMG  no wonder people find 'roleplayers' to be eliteist snobs. I shall now crawl back into my tiny little hole of H&S disillusionment and pretend I never  heard this. I shall continue to enjoy the roleplay I experience in NON RPI muds and if one person happens to slip and mention something about their 'weather' I won't let it ruin my day, it's a game something to enjoy and not a test of ultimate perfection

And again I say, the code does not a roleplaying game make. It is the people who inhabit the world that make it either an enjoyable experience or a waking nightmare.

Now to get this back on topic, it can be fun bringing some roleplay into a game that is already semi receptive to it, in fact it can be rewarding upping the level of rp if the majority of players are open to the experience. After all some may not even know that better exist and will enoy the new twist on their experiences. But there are just those places where any kind of rp is not going to fly,people enjoy playing theose games for what they are, in fact many will play them to escape from the rp element.  You can usually tell within a few minutes if a game is suited to your tastes or receptive to the idea of roleplay though
Heh, of course all of us who play RPIs are "eliteist (sic) snobs" because just as most MUDs will penalize PCs for looting someone else's corpse or interfering with a kill or stealing exp by killing a mob someone else was engaging, we too want our RP free of interference. *eyeroll*

No, you don't have to have special code to RP, but if you want total immersion, code that doesn't contain glaring signs of non-RP MUDs is a pleasant feature. Additionally, RPIs tend to hide their technical aspects (hit points, etc.) so that they're incorporated and displayed in a manner that is consistent with the setting, not with a game.

And as for OOC references, I and many other RPers DO NOT want to hear about the weather somewhere else (or for that matter where I'm at, if I want to know about the weather, I'll turn on the TV). Joe Bob breaking in to tell us about the weather or how he finally passed the third grade just shy of his sixteenth birthday is just as disruptive to RP as someone coming into the tavern you're in and killing the bartender for his tips.

As for "...upping the level of rp if the majority of players are open to the experience" that's all well and fine, but a majority is by definition only one more than half. While that's no indication that a bare majority will cooperate, all it takes is one to ruin the experience and the mood of the RP. The total immersion and the freedom from non-RPers is why I and many play RPIs. It's not elitism nor are we snobs. We want RP and we choose MUDs that concentrate on RP and RP only.

RPIs may not be for you. They're not for a lot of people. That's not meant to be elitist and no one's excluding people from playing them to RP. In fact, most RPIs are very welcoming to new RPers, though the learning curve is steep. But if they're not looking to RP, there's really no reason for them to be there and H&S actions won't be looked any nicer upon than violations of the rules on any other MUD.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ May 28 2005,15:53)
It's not elitism nor are we snobs.  We want RP and we choose MUDs that concentrate on RP and RP only.
No? Where's the TMS "Hack N Slashers" forum? Hmmm.

I don't think that RPI'ers are by "definition" elitist snobs... I agree with you, Prof1515, that they just choose what they like.

But within the MU* community, HnS'ers *are* looked upon as 'less than.'

Many HnS'ers either don't have the literary skill or simply the desire to RP intensively. But there is very little room for us on this forum. Perhaps that's where the misnomer of "elitist snob" comes in. It is discouraging to give a great portion of one's life to MUDding, and to try and participate in forums that simply have nothing to say to us.
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Old 05-30-2005, 05:42 PM   #19
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Question

A good number of years ago, I joined up with a small group of players (and a couple of Staff) who were trying to start up some RP on a purely hack-n-slash MUD. We were actually moderately successful, primarily because we were given our own little secluded sections of the game in which to do our thing. Other players were just confused if we ever tried to RP with them. (Some getting humorously angry until we explained)

Most of our number quickly became disillusioned with the limitations of attempting to RP in a game that didn't really support it. They left to form their own game, and most of those who I RP'ed with were gone within a couple of months. The less hardcore RPers remained, but I got bored with them and ended up leaving that game. A couple of years later, I tried the spin-off MUD and realized that there was a world of difference between an RPI and a small group of people attempting to RP in a hack-n-slash game.
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