Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Roleplaying and Storytelling
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-27-2005, 11:57 AM   #21
Realedazed
Member
 
Realedazed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: AZ
Home MUD: Armageddon
Home MUD: Harshlands
Home MUD: DartMUD
Posts: 157
Realedazed is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Realedazed Send a message via Yahoo to Realedazed
I may need to re-read the thread but I think both of you are saying similar things. Teach your daughter she can do anything thing she wants and support her in her decision. The difference, to me, it seems is that one side is saying: your daughter can do anything. On the other: you daughter can do anything, as long as its not a "traditional woman's" job.

As a woman, I feel I can do whatever I want, but society will always have something to do say about it. For example, my male cousin joked about becoming a stripper. Everyone laughed and even thought he'd be good at it. I joked about the same thing, and everyone thought it'll be nasty. As long as it is treated in a professional matter (read: no sexual favors), isn't it the same exact job?

Well, to get a little bit back on topic. Like I said, in this world anyone can do what they want even if it is a traditional woman's role. Even those traditional roles are changing or evolving. What about the woman who wants to stay home with the kids. Some are doing it for various reasons. Some are homeschooling, some have a home business, while others have other reasons. I have nothing against that woman. Heck, there are guys staying home with the kids, too. So, is something wrong with that? I have nothing against models. Some of these models may also run their own modeling agency or other company. I have nothing against the women in adult films. Many of those woman are actually running the show (I watched something about that a while ago on HBO). Other woman have started huge businesses in what we could call woman's work: cooking, cleaning, beauty, etc.

I don't know, I wanted to be a veterinarian ever since I was a little girl. I also wanted to be a model. My grandmother supported me in both dreams. If I should have a daughter, I'll teach her to be a strong woman. I'll support her in whatever decision she should make in life. In the end, its her decision.
Realedazed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 12:00 PM   #22
Fifi
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 227
Fifi is on a distinguished road
I am not saying anything but a traditional woman's role. Prostituting yourself is not the definition of a traditional woman's role.
Fifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 12:56 PM   #23
Realedazed
Member
 
Realedazed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: AZ
Home MUD: Armageddon
Home MUD: Harshlands
Home MUD: DartMUD
Posts: 157
Realedazed is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Realedazed Send a message via Yahoo to Realedazed
Opps, Fifi, I'm sorry. I really wasn't focusing on prostitution. I was focusing on other things. For example, you have said that you didn't care for models. I just wanted to say that a woman could do more in that industry than just being a pretty face.
Realedazed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2005, 01:53 AM   #24
Earthmother
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Home MUD: GateWay MUD
Posts: 68
Earthmother is on a distinguished road
Unhappy

(I'm not quite ready to let this drop yet, all, sorry for the ongoing verbosity. )

Realedazed, I think you're right, Fifi and I are not *too* far apart in our ideologies. We'd both like to see women stand on their own two feet, be confident in themselves, aspire to great things, and achieve great things.

And, Fifi, gal... I'm not out to get you, nor to criticise you personally. You have a great question/topic here, it is well worth discussing. I *like* discussing this, especially with other women. I do want to clarify my positions a bit, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prostitution,cronism and synchophantism all work, they're all effective, and I suppose easy and fun for those involved, but is that what we want to encourage paople to aspire to?
I'm wasn't trying to encourage prostitution, cronyism, or sycopantism. Defend them, yes, but not particularly encourage them. I defend them because they are all things that women do to gain power, and they are pathways to power that work. I particularly do NOT encourage prostitution, no matter how much I may defend it, because I think it is detrimental the the emotional and physical health and well-being of the women who are engaged in it. (I have no citation to back up this statement, as with all my ramblings, it's a 'gut-feeling' thing.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I guess you got me, I do have a problem with it. But I don't think that makes me someone who doesn't value traditional faminine roles.
I can see where my statements about traditional women's roles can be construed this way. You've defended that you value these roles, so, let me ask this: why does it bother you so much that the women on MU*s behave the way they do? What are these women doing on your game that caused you to start this topic? ARE they all flocking to prostitution? Are they 'getting ahead' somehow via sexual conduct? Are they all taking 'mother' roles, rather than house/clan leader roles? What kind of roles would you like to see them taking, as opposed to the ones they currently take?

I think I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I don't think gigglling and spreading one's legs are the best that women have to offer the human race,even if we throw in batting eyelashes and sultry voices. And I don't think that equating mothering, nursing etc, is fair to most mothers nannies, nurses, kindergarten teachers, and so forth.
I definitely want to say that I wasn't trying to equate all 'female' jobs with prostitution. EEP! But, (please take this next statement with the tone of a grin, please, please...) I've gotta say that all mothers spread their legs somewhere along the line. ;>

And, that is PRECISELY why I defend sexual actions by women so strongly... without the flirting, the giggling, the batting eyelashes and the sultry voices... we might not get the opportunity to BE mothers. Flirtation also gives us the opportunity to make choices among men, and choices about who we will have sex with, and who will become the fathers of our children. I do not think our sole purpose is to flirt; I do not think that is the best thing we have to offer the human race. But I do think that motherhood is one of the best things we as women DO have to offer the human race. I do not think our sole purpose is to bear children, but I DO think it IS a benefit of womanhood. The fact that sex plays a part in this benefit is something I am unwilling to overlook. I take sex and flirtation seriously, because it is a serious business, and motherhood is a job.

I do not mean to equate all traditional female roles with prostitution. I only want to defend womens' decisions to play up the sex angle, both in real life and in MU*s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I am not saying anything but a traditional woman's role. Prostituting yourself is not the definition of a traditional woman's role.
I know this was in response to Realedazed, but I also want to ask you about this statement, and I hope you respond to it (and all the questions in this post)...Do you think that prostitution is a traditional woman's role? (I do, incidentally.)

Mostly, I'd really like to know what roles in MU*s you'd like to see women take more of, and which ones you'd like to see them take less of. (I'd like these questions answered by anyone, too, not just Fifi! More discussion, please! ) That way, we can get back to your original question of HOW to get gals to take those roles.
Earthmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2005, 11:41 AM   #25
Fifi
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 227
Fifi is on a distinguished road
First, I want to say, I think it's wonderful that we can have a heated and passionate debate without bearing any personal rancor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
....so, let me ask this: why does it bother you so much that the women on MU*s behave the way they do? What are these women doing on your game that caused you to start this topic? ARE they all flocking to prostitution? Are they 'getting ahead' somehow via sexual conduct?
I've recently left the game I played for four years, but the it was evident on the game I played before, and I see it on the game on which I've recently begun. And women are not playing the mother role with depth and passion. While many women do play the ritual of seduction, procreation and reproduction, once they produce these imaginary offspring they do not blow any depth into their rp of mothering. They drag their offspring into smoky noisy taverns. Their children magically disappear when they want to run out and spar, or troll the bars for their next sperm donor. I'd love to see a woman on a mud scold her naughty rug rats as they interfere with her conducting her livlihood. I'd love to see them sacrifice for their children. I don't believe that lovely peasant girl A B and C can all afford private nurses. Why aren't any of these women running day care centers? Why aren't any of them stressed out about the magnitude of balancing their jobs as leathal warriors and the care of their children? The children born in muds seem to be more like a form of jewelry than small people that bring joy beyond their flawless cuteness, and bring worries and fatigue. The people playing mother roles are often not playing them realistically. But really this thread is about a different type of one dimensional rp.

More on point, I have trouble telling one honey voiced femme fatale from the next. This is a great pc concept: Ariana is a beautiful young woman from the poor side of town, who works hard to polish herself and use her sweet face to attract powerful men, and ensnare them in her invisible silken webs of intrigue so she can run the world through them.

The problem is with Ariana is that ninety percent of female pc's are Ariana. And less than one percent are: Mary, a woman from the poor part of town, who worked as a weaver until her fingers bled to pay to learn to read. She managed to get a job as an aide, where her sound judgement and hard work earned her a job as top administrator. She saved every penny she ever made and raised an army one warrior at a time, solidifying each man and woman to her through the sheer force of her personality and is now taking over the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I know this was in response to Realedazed, but I also want to ask you about this statement, and I hope you respond to it (and all the questions in this post)...Do you think that prostitution is a traditional woman's role? (I do, incidentally.)
I think that prostitution is a traditional woman's role that originates from societies where women are less valued than men.  I don't have any data to draw on, but perhaps I should do some research. Your question makes me wonder this: How common is prostitution in matriarchal societies vs. patriarchal?

Also, most of the prostitution in mud, is not money for sex. But the selling of one's very being including sex for second hand power.

I would also be happy to see more of the women who play these roles play them proudly. See them stand up and say, I slept my way to the top. Where there are men  willing to be manipulated by their penis, I am smart enough to profit. Instead most women who get ahead through sex deny they've done so, further emphasizing that what they do is shameful. If this is a role women insist on embracing (in spite of my very vocal protests) then let's embrace it without shame.

As for what roles I'd like to see women in, I'd like to see women in as many roles as they can imagine. And I'd like to see them imagine more than two. The man-like woman warrior and the woman who is a source of sexual desire first and hunter-gatherer-philosopher-weaver-warrior-mother second are both cliches. I want to see women not playing cliches. I want to see women who believe they don't need to flutter their lashes and stick out their perfect breasts for what they say to be interesting. Nor do I think they should have to remake themselves into men to be taken seriously.
Fifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2005, 02:17 PM   #26
Jeena
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 49
Jeena is on a distinguished road
Maybe I've missed it commented on earlier in the topic, however it seems to me the issues are stereotypical female characters, i.e., femme fatale, fainting flower, blushing beauty, man hating swordswoman, etc....

In the few roleplaying games I've taken an active part in, I found it disconcerting to find myself competing for rp time with other players (particularly males) when ravishing sexpots were roaming the land. On one game, it was like 75 percent of the women were possessed by drama-loving succubi while the other 25 percent were angry and resentful.
To make matters worse, very few of the males were put off by the behavior. All guys find the drama entertaining in rl? I doubt it.

I think at issue is this, in a "real world" scenerio, 75 percent of the women are not beautiful manipulative women, or helpless, or
drama queens.

The biggest problem with playing a "stereotype" in an rp mud is the lack of desire to give those characters flaws, issues, and real deep personalities. The very definition of a stereotype defies depth.

This isn't just a problem that female players face, but male players as well. I've seen white knights AND evil sorcerers who all imagined themselves to be darkly handsome and completely irresistable to women. Too many "perfect" characters and rp loses interest, depth, and story.

This isn't an argument saying there shouldn't be sexy women on rp games, women who stay home and raise children, or women who don't want to do anything but tend the gardens. At the same time this isn't an argument saying that all women in the game should be ravishing drama queens.
What it is saying is... flaws, not perfection, make the characters. RP is boring as #### when 75 percent of the game is playing the same type of character just with a different name. This is the number one reason I don't RP anymore on MuDs. Whereas at least on mushes, where characters are approved, you have a greater chance of meeting characters with depth, flaw, history, and personality.




Jeena
Jeena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2005, 02:29 PM   #27
Fifi
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 227
Fifi is on a distinguished road
I think you sum up nicely what I was trying to get at, Jeena.
Fifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2005, 04:29 PM   #28
Jazuela
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 843
Jazuela will become famous soon enoughJazuela will become famous soon enough
Regarding the whole motherhood in MUDs thing Fifi...I just HAD to laugh about that. You know that "Pregnancy Doc" on the website of the game you just left? Well - I wrote the original. If you had seen that original, you'd be laughing right now too.

The whole point of my writing it was to DIScourage players from RPing pregnancy and motherhood, because I have yet to see a single one of them RP one even *remotely* realistically.

In fact, the original title was:

"So, Ya Wanna Be a Zalanthan Breed Mare?"

It degenerated from there I wish my computer hadn't crashed a couple of months ago, because I had it in a text file on my hard drive. I'd share it with y'all here so you can see exactly what I believe Fifi is talking about regarding this particular segment of the thread.
Jazuela is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Old topic: Feminism and mudders - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
non-mudders zombiedepot Newbie Help 13 07-11-2008 11:44 AM
Topic Deleted? yagiska Tavern of the Blue Hand 2 01-26-2003 06:47 AM
Young Mudders vs. Old Mudders Enzo Introduce Yourself 59 11-10-2002 10:19 PM
TO all mudders! Soup_Nazi Tavern of the Blue Hand 5 05-29-2002 02:45 AM
Editing topic titles Neranz Laverani Bugs and Suggestions 3 05-18-2002 02:00 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014