Tavern of the Blue Hand

Darren Brimhall · 01-12-2011, 12:20 PM

Agreed...

Making the Fun too much work, and demanding they adhear to it, would drive Players (even exsperienced Players) away from a place.

Darren Brimhall

KaVir · 01-12-2011, 01:08 PM

Some muds take that route, and they are classified as "Roleplaying Encouraged", but not everyone likes them - because while the carrot can encourage some people to roleplay, the stick is sometimes necessary to stop certain players from disrupting others from roleplaying.

Will · 01-12-2011, 01:43 PM

Yeah, it's a careful balance.

But there's a big difference between disallowing OOC chitchat in-game and forcing players to meet an arbitrary role-playing standard.

Jazuela · 01-13-2011, 09:00 AM

It's not an arbitrary roleplaying standard. It's the very precise roleplaying standard that the administrators of that particular mud has determined is appopriate for their mud.

KaVir · 01-13-2011, 10:30 AM

You can't prevent OOC chitchat, the only question is whether you offer OOC channels within the mud itself, or if the players have to use an external application such as IRC or Skype.

But regardless of which option you go with, "implementing rules that force people to role-play" is the only way to prevent certain players from disrupting the roleplaying of others. These rules can be hardcoded, policed, or some combination of the two, but if you don't have any then the mud is "Roleplaying Encouraged", and will appeal to a different audience.

Darren Brimhall · 01-13-2011, 06:47 PM

In Marrach, it was the Player's option weither or not they wanted to recieve a 'Page' from another player--this was out form of OOC Chat when the players wern't together in the same area.

In Ironclaw, the best possible is @message--which is only good when the players are in the same area.

In both, OOC chat is allowed--but only if Players are in the same area.

These are what I'm exsperienced with.

Darren Brimhall

Delerak · 01-13-2011, 11:00 PM

I have a simple answer; the same reason Halo is like the highest grossing video game of all time and has the revenue of a small country, and I'm pretty sure you don't roleplay on Halo.

Parhelion · 01-14-2011, 05:27 AM

Hey, look everyone, a smart-ass response that makes little to no sense.

Using your logic, I can counter that World of Warcraft is an even larger franchise, with an even closer gameplay model, and people DO roleplay on WoW (there are countless groups devoted to it, in fact).

Nothing specifically "turns people from RP." Rather, each person has their own individual style. Luckily, there are a thousand different MUDs out there and they all cater to a different type of audience. Sometimes, we want to play games that don't cater to our particular play-style, and we get angry about that. Then, we get even angrier and go home all butt-hurt when we get rejected for doing things "our way", which, obviously, is the better way. In the end, the best thing you can do for your own sanity and (assuming you actually care about your community) everyone else's is to LEAVE the game and go find something that fits your style.

There is nothing wrong with a non-RPing PvP game. There is nothing wrong with a casual roleplaying game where you are invited to just kick back and have fun and be yourself. There is also nothing wrong with a "hard-core" environment where you are expected to make a serious effort into following certain game-setting rules. Those game-setting rules are there so that the people who LIKE those types of games can play them without someone who wants to play a casual game coming along and ruining their experience.

My problem is, and will always remain, with games that try to cater to more than one style -- specifically, targeting the 'hardcore' audience for more players while not providing the right environment, or assuming that PvPers and RPers are going to get along (cuz they won't -- one group likes to antagonize the other).

KaVir · 01-14-2011, 08:53 AM

Well you could (rightly) argue that all muds have to provide the right environment for their target audience, regardless of how broad or narrow that audience might be - in fact I'd argue that knowing your audience is one of the most important aspects of mud design. Catering to more than one style of player may require extra care, but that doesn't mean it can't be done; personally I'd be interested to see a .

Darren Brimhall · 01-14-2011, 01:19 PM

A MUD that combines different playstyles that's dependent on the Player...

Sounds interesting.

Darren Brimhall

Will · 01-15-2011, 09:54 AM

I guess the thing that worries me about a game like this is that it divides the players into very seperate populations. One of the biggest issues faced by text games today is the ability to grow, and it takes a crowd to bring in new blood. In my opinion, the design described on the linked page would isolate two-thirds of the players from each other and essentially create three separate games. I don't believe it's ever a good idea to implement built-in barriers to interactivity and communication. The pool of people interested in text gaming just isn't big enough, no matter how good a game design is.

KaVir · 01-15-2011, 11:49 AM

Only if you assume that the players would normally all be playing together. The point of the Ice Age design is to target three separate audiences that wouldn't normally play the same game at all. In other words, you're not splitting the playerbase into three, but rather you're combining the playerbases of three very different games and allowing them to interact with each other in a controlled way that promotes, rather than disrupts, each other's gameplay.

However if you have strong feelings about OOC social interaction, there's no reason why you couldn't offer channels where the players of all three factions can communicate OOC using their account names. This would allow the players to chat and offer advice while keeping IC and OOC separate.

Delerak · 01-15-2011, 01:50 PM

Uh I disagree that you can roleplay properly on WoW. Roleplay is also subjective. What you consider roleplaying might not be what I consider to be roleplaying. Just like in real life you have actors that think they can act but really can't.

Will · 01-16-2011, 11:40 AM

I hadn't thought of it that way. It's a very cool idea.

Darren Brimhall · 01-19-2011, 07:21 PM

There was something very simular to what KaVir proposed at Marrach.

It was called 'The Conclave', a very destitute location deep with in Mount Ardan (atop of which the Castle was loocated) where the Castle Disidents (and other undesireables) were sent to. Innitially, those players had their own little world which to play in. But most of those sent there soon returned to the Castle, their players citing lack of RP opertunity with the other characters down there--citing RL issues and those players running 'Alt Characters' up in the Castle, because there was nothing going on in the Conclave plotwise.

These were a highly competant bunch who very likely could have gone on to being StoryGuides and StoryHosts there. But for want of a Coder, who only had to check in on them from time to time to create nessicarry RP objects to make thier plots go, the ideal fizzed.

Eventually most Players either had their characters return to the Castle, and were imprisioned, or the players themselves simply left the Game. Some with imprisoned characters left as well, as they grew tired of waiting for the wheels of justice to start turning. That partictular problem has dogged that Game, along with a host of others.

And when such problems are added up, it comes as no surprise that the place is currently a mess.

Its sad really, very sad.

Darren Brimhall

RP Kris · 01-26-2011, 04:33 PM

Nothing turns me away from RP in general. I absolutely refuse to play a MUD that isn't truly RP enforced. When I just wanted to play a game for mechanics or combat I will play a console game. If I just wanted that in a multi-player environment I would play an MMORPG. I play MUDs to be a immersed into a story and maybe even play a small part in it.

I've never seen anything close to good RP on a MMORPG. If you think it is out there point me/us to the game, server, and clan. I'd love to take a look. (PM me if you feel more comfortable.)

That being said, I really hate the style of RP on some MU*s. Paragraph long, self centered emotes don't equate to good RP in my opinion. Some of the people complaining about "RP" on this thread are talking about this very style. There are MUDs out there with faster paced RP and I greatly prefer them.

KaVir · 01-27-2011, 04:49 AM

Ah, see, I'm the opposite. When I want to roleplay, I play a tabletop roleplaying game (I've done live action in the past as well, but that requires a lot more effort and organisation). I guess if I moved to another town and couldn't find a new local group, I might be tempted to play online with a small group of real-life friends, but only as a last resort - and only as a means of communicating, using a private talker rather than a mud.

On the other hand I play muds because I want an online game where I can interact with other players, with mechanics and competitive gameplay, challenges and goals, combat and puzzles.

MMORPGs are muds as well, and I don't really view them any differently from a roleplaying perspective - in my opinion the quality of roleplaying depends on the participants rather than the medium.

But to get back to the original question, which I realise I never really answered: The thing that turns me away from roleplaying on muds is the people and the medium. I like roleplaying with real-life friends, and I like to interact with them in person. Sitting alone in front of a computer and emoting with anonymous strangers really doesn't do it for me.

dentin · 01-27-2011, 10:01 AM

I know better than to respond to this, but:

I dislike online RP because the rules are arbitrary, inconsistent, and subject to interpretation to a much greater extent than I prefer. I enjoy figuring out complex but well defined systems and seeing what I can do within the bounds of those systems; RP in general is pretty much undefined and free form.

When I want RP, Ill head back to real life, where I can find any number of fully immersive RP scenarios that actually have strong rulesets.

There's a phrase I've heard frequently when reading about developing countries: A government with consistently enforced bad laws is better than a government with inconsistently enforced good laws. That seems appropriate here. I dig consistency.

-dentin

RP Kris · 01-27-2011, 11:08 AM

Our difference in preference is ironic considering our mutual love for tabletop RP. Back in college when I couldn't find a good consistent D&D group with the same gaming preferences, I started playing Muds and became hooked. Don't get me wrong. I still tabletop game and enjoy it, but it can't compare to the consistency of a 24/7 Mud.

Thinking about my present tabletop group now, we are supposed to get together weekly and it seems to happen only every two weeks if we are lucky. We also are playing Dresden Files which is alright, but I prefer D&D. I still tabletop because I like my friends, but mudding has been more consistent for me for years.

I do agree that the quality of roleplay depends upon the participants. Along with that though, I've found the key to even a decent RP environment is enforcement by the administration and player base. That is one thing I've found laking on every MMORPG. If your model is to get as many players as you can, RP enforcement isn't going to be at the top of the list. You would have to have a fairly large group of dedicated RP'rs that primarily interacted together to create an immersive RP environment. I know it is possible, but I've yet to find it on any MMORPG.

RP Kris · 01-27-2011, 11:15 AM

Are you talking about MU*s without any solid coding or mechanics in place? If I am interpreting what you say right, you don't like games where the outcome of the game or combat is based solely on RP vs. solid code? I'm not a fan of those games either.

RP and challenging defined gaming systems aren't mutually exclusive, thank goodness. There are games out there with both! It is a matter of finding the right game.

01-12-2011, 12:20 PM	#81
Darren Brimhall Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 243	Re: What turns people from RP? Agreed... Making the Fun too much work, and demanding they adhear to it, would drive Players (even exsperienced Players) away from a place. Darren Brimhall

01-12-2011, 01:08 PM	#82
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Re: What turns people from RP? Some muds take that route, and they are classified as "Roleplaying Encouraged", but not everyone likes them - because while the carrot can encourage some people to roleplay, the stick is sometimes necessary to stop certain players from disrupting others from roleplaying.

01-12-2011, 01:43 PM	#83
Will Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 90	Re: What turns people from RP? Yeah, it's a careful balance. But there's a big difference between disallowing OOC chitchat in-game and forcing players to meet an arbitrary role-playing standard. Last edited by Will : 01-12-2011 at 01:49 PM.

01-13-2011, 09:00 AM	#84
Jazuela Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New England Posts: 849	Re: What turns people from RP? It's not an arbitrary roleplaying standard. It's the very precise roleplaying standard that the administrators of that particular mud has determined is appopriate for their mud.

01-13-2011, 10:30 AM	#85
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Re: What turns people from RP? You can't prevent OOC chitchat, the only question is whether you offer OOC channels within the mud itself, or if the players have to use an external application such as IRC or Skype. But regardless of which option you go with, "implementing rules that force people to role-play" is the only way to prevent certain players from disrupting the roleplaying of others. These rules can be hardcoded, policed, or some combination of the two, but if you don't have any then the mud is "Roleplaying Encouraged", and will appeal to a different audience.

01-13-2011, 06:47 PM	#86
Darren Brimhall Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 243	Re: What turns people from RP? In Marrach, it was the Player's option weither or not they wanted to recieve a 'Page' from another player--this was out form of OOC Chat when the players wern't together in the same area. In Ironclaw, the best possible is @message--which is only good when the players are in the same area. In both, OOC chat is allowed--but only if Players are in the same area. These are what I'm exsperienced with. Darren Brimhall

01-13-2011, 11:00 PM	#87
Delerak Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Name: Dan Location: New York Posts: 716	Re: What turns people from RP? I have a simple answer; the same reason Halo is like the highest grossing video game of all time and has the revenue of a small country, and I'm pretty sure you don't roleplay on Halo.

01-14-2011, 05:27 AM	#88
Parhelion Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Name: Sarah Location: Tempe, AZ Home MUD: Ethos Posts: 71	Re: What turns people from RP? Hey, look everyone, a smart-ass response that makes little to no sense. Using your logic, I can counter that World of Warcraft is an even larger franchise, with an even closer gameplay model, and people DO roleplay on WoW (there are countless groups devoted to it, in fact). Nothing specifically "turns people from RP." Rather, each person has their own individual style. Luckily, there are a thousand different MUDs out there and they all cater to a different type of audience. Sometimes, we want to play games that don't cater to our particular play-style, and we get angry about that. Then, we get even angrier and go home all butt-hurt when we get rejected for doing things "our way", which, obviously, is the better way. In the end, the best thing you can do for your own sanity and (assuming you actually care about your community) everyone else's is to LEAVE the game and go find something that fits your style. There is nothing wrong with a non-RPing PvP game. There is nothing wrong with a casual roleplaying game where you are invited to just kick back and have fun and be yourself. There is also nothing wrong with a "hard-core" environment where you are expected to make a serious effort into following certain game-setting rules. Those game-setting rules are there so that the people who LIKE those types of games can play them without someone who wants to play a casual game coming along and ruining their experience. My problem is, and will always remain, with games that try to cater to more than one style -- specifically, targeting the 'hardcore' audience for more players while not providing the right environment, or assuming that PvPers and RPers are going to get along (cuz they won't -- one group likes to antagonize the other).

01-14-2011, 08:53 AM	#89
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Re: What turns people from RP? Well you could (rightly) argue that all muds have to provide the right environment for their target audience, regardless of how broad or narrow that audience might be - in fact I'd argue that knowing your audience is one of the most important aspects of mud design. Catering to more than one style of player may require extra care, but that doesn't mean it can't be done; personally I'd be interested to see a .

01-14-2011, 01:19 PM	#90
Darren Brimhall Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 243	Re: What turns people from RP? A MUD that combines different playstyles that's dependent on the Player... Sounds interesting. Darren Brimhall

01-15-2011, 09:54 AM	#91
Will Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 90	Re: What turns people from RP? I guess the thing that worries me about a game like this is that it divides the players into very seperate populations. One of the biggest issues faced by text games today is the ability to grow, and it takes a crowd to bring in new blood. In my opinion, the design described on the linked page would isolate two-thirds of the players from each other and essentially create three separate games. I don't believe it's ever a good idea to implement built-in barriers to interactivity and communication. The pool of people interested in text gaming just isn't big enough, no matter how good a game design is.

01-15-2011, 11:49 AM	#92
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Re: What turns people from RP? Only if you assume that the players would normally all be playing together. The point of the Ice Age design is to target three separate audiences that wouldn't normally play the same game at all. In other words, you're not splitting the playerbase into three, but rather you're combining the playerbases of three very different games and allowing them to interact with each other in a controlled way that promotes, rather than disrupts, each other's gameplay. However if you have strong feelings about OOC social interaction, there's no reason why you couldn't offer channels where the players of all three factions can communicate OOC using their account names. This would allow the players to chat and offer advice while keeping IC and OOC separate.

01-15-2011, 01:50 PM	#93
Delerak Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Name: Dan Location: New York Posts: 716	Re: What turns people from RP? Uh I disagree that you can roleplay properly on WoW. Roleplay is also subjective. What you consider roleplaying might not be what I consider to be roleplaying. Just like in real life you have actors that think they can act but really can't.

01-16-2011, 11:40 AM	#94
Will Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 90	Re: What turns people from RP? I hadn't thought of it that way. It's a very cool idea.

01-19-2011, 07:21 PM	#95
Darren Brimhall Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 243	Re: What turns people from RP? There was something very simular to what KaVir proposed at Marrach. It was called 'The Conclave', a very destitute location deep with in Mount Ardan (atop of which the Castle was loocated) where the Castle Disidents (and other undesireables) were sent to. Innitially, those players had their own little world which to play in. But most of those sent there soon returned to the Castle, their players citing lack of RP opertunity with the other characters down there--citing RL issues and those players running 'Alt Characters' up in the Castle, because there was nothing going on in the Conclave plotwise. These were a highly competant bunch who very likely could have gone on to being StoryGuides and StoryHosts there. But for want of a Coder, who only had to check in on them from time to time to create nessicarry RP objects to make thier plots go, the ideal fizzed. Eventually most Players either had their characters return to the Castle, and were imprisioned, or the players themselves simply left the Game. Some with imprisoned characters left as well, as they grew tired of waiting for the wheels of justice to start turning. That partictular problem has dogged that Game, along with a host of others. And when such problems are added up, it comes as no surprise that the place is currently a mess. Its sad really, very sad. Darren Brimhall Last edited by Darren Brimhall : 01-19-2011 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Didn't go far enough with my reasonings in the Post

01-26-2011, 04:33 PM	#96
RP Kris New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20	Re: What turns people from RP? Nothing turns me away from RP in general. I absolutely refuse to play a MUD that isn't truly RP enforced. When I just wanted to play a game for mechanics or combat I will play a console game. If I just wanted that in a multi-player environment I would play an MMORPG. I play MUDs to be a immersed into a story and maybe even play a small part in it. I've never seen anything close to good RP on a MMORPG. If you think it is out there point me/us to the game, server, and clan. I'd love to take a look. (PM me if you feel more comfortable.) That being said, I really hate the style of RP on some MU*s. Paragraph long, self centered emotes don't equate to good RP in my opinion. Some of the people complaining about "RP" on this thread are talking about this very style. There are MUDs out there with faster paced RP and I greatly prefer them.

01-27-2011, 04:49 AM	#97
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Re: What turns people from RP? Ah, see, I'm the opposite. When I want to roleplay, I play a tabletop roleplaying game (I've done live action in the past as well, but that requires a lot more effort and organisation). I guess if I moved to another town and couldn't find a new local group, I might be tempted to play online with a small group of real-life friends, but only as a last resort - and only as a means of communicating, using a private talker rather than a mud. On the other hand I play muds because I want an online game where I can interact with other players, with mechanics and competitive gameplay, challenges and goals, combat and puzzles. MMORPGs are muds as well, and I don't really view them any differently from a roleplaying perspective - in my opinion the quality of roleplaying depends on the participants rather than the medium. But to get back to the original question, which I realise I never really answered: The thing that turns me away from roleplaying on muds is the people and the medium. I like roleplaying with real-life friends, and I like to interact with them in person. Sitting alone in front of a computer and emoting with anonymous strangers really doesn't do it for me.

01-27-2011, 10:01 AM	#98
dentin Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Home MUD: Alter Aeon Posts: 245	Re: What turns people from RP? I know better than to respond to this, but: I dislike online RP because the rules are arbitrary, inconsistent, and subject to interpretation to a much greater extent than I prefer. I enjoy figuring out complex but well defined systems and seeing what I can do within the bounds of those systems; RP in general is pretty much undefined and free form. When I want RP, Ill head back to real life, where I can find any number of fully immersive RP scenarios that actually have strong rulesets. There's a phrase I've heard frequently when reading about developing countries: A government with consistently enforced bad laws is better than a government with inconsistently enforced good laws. That seems appropriate here. I dig consistency. -dentin

01-27-2011, 11:08 AM	#99
RP Kris New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20	Re: What turns people from RP? Our difference in preference is ironic considering our mutual love for tabletop RP. Back in college when I couldn't find a good consistent D&D group with the same gaming preferences, I started playing Muds and became hooked. Don't get me wrong. I still tabletop game and enjoy it, but it can't compare to the consistency of a 24/7 Mud. Thinking about my present tabletop group now, we are supposed to get together weekly and it seems to happen only every two weeks if we are lucky. We also are playing Dresden Files which is alright, but I prefer D&D. I still tabletop because I like my friends, but mudding has been more consistent for me for years. I do agree that the quality of roleplay depends upon the participants. Along with that though, I've found the key to even a decent RP environment is enforcement by the administration and player base. That is one thing I've found laking on every MMORPG. If your model is to get as many players as you can, RP enforcement isn't going to be at the top of the list. You would have to have a fairly large group of dedicated RP'rs that primarily interacted together to create an immersive RP environment. I know it is possible, but I've yet to find it on any MMORPG.

01-27-2011, 11:15 AM	#100
RP Kris New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20	Re: What turns people from RP? Are you talking about MU*s without any solid coding or mechanics in place? If I am interpreting what you say right, you don't like games where the outcome of the game or combat is based solely on RP vs. solid code? I'm not a fan of those games either. RP and challenging defined gaming systems aren't mutually exclusive, thank goodness. There are games out there with both! It is a matter of finding the right game.

Tavern of the Blue Hand

What turns people from RP?