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Old 03-21-2005, 04:31 PM   #1
the_logos
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A week and a half ago at the GDC (Game Developer's Conference), a panel of games industry people + one crazy lady) (Warren Spector, Greg Costikyan, Chris Hecker, Jason Della Rocca, and the crazy lady, Brenda Laurel) ranted about how they hate the games industry. I had issues with what Warren, Greg, and Brenda had to say, so wrote a response that Terranova published here:


Just thought some of you might be interested. It's been making the rounds, including front page of Slashdot. For those who may not be familiar, Warren Spector is a long-time developer who has worked for Steve Jackson Games, TSR, Origin, Looking Glass, Ion Storm, etc. Greg Costikyan hasn't worked on anything like the high profile titles Warren has, but is still a respected indie-style thinker. I have no idea who Brenda Laurel is, and don't care.

Indie power, bitch.

--matt
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Old 03-21-2005, 11:24 PM   #2
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Old 03-21-2005, 11:44 PM   #3
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Games are games, man. I had a meeting with Seamus Blackley (co-creator of the Xbox and now the head games agent at CAA, the largest full-service talent agency) the other day and he had no problem taking what we do seriously. If he can, I'm sure you can too. Don't write off text MUDs just because they don't have graphics and are very niche pursuits. They are no less valid a form of game than Halo 2 or WoW. The latter games are just more popular.

And don't you see that that's the issue? The implicit message behind what they're saying, particularly in Greg's case (who, in a bit I didn't quote, asked the audience how many of them were in games for a paycheck as opposed to making great games), is that they want to make innovative games. That doesn't really jibe with wanting to make games with $25 million budgets. Few of those games are innovative compared to, frankly, a lot of text MUDs or smaller graphical games like A Tale in the Desert or the upcoming single-player Darwinia by Introversion ()

In one breath they complain about how the graphics bar has risen so high that the only way to make graphically competitive games is to tie yourself to investment money (which just wants a return on investment and doesn't really care about the games themselves), but then they turn around and ignore the fact that you don't need a $25 million budget to make interesting games, and you don't need a $25 million budget to make a good living making interesting games.

--matt
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Old 03-22-2005, 05:33 PM   #4
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I agree with you Matt.  The game industry proper (ie, graphical games) is rather bereft of quality because of their emphasis on graphics over creative gameplay.  They're more interested in graphics yet ignore non-graphical games like MUDs (which quite accurately are still games) which provide far more quality, creativity, and depth to them.

Sadly, the limitations of the gaming industry are tied to and always will be tied to their emphasis on graphics.  Graphics require less creative thought and design than making thoughful, interestingly unique games, but they take up a lot of time and money creating those graphics.  But graphics are just graphics, and there's a lot more to a great game than that. If they spent only a fraction of that time and money on designing a decent game with blocky graphics or just plain text (like MUDs), they'd have something.

Maybe that's why the games (besides MUDs) that I play are all games which came out years (or even decades) ago.  They were creative and interesting then and they still are.  But Rome: Total War, which I received for Christmas, went back to the store within a week and I didn't even bother with looking at Halo 2.  Great graphics, but nothing else innovative enough to make me choose that over anything I've been playing for years already.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 03-22-2005, 05:51 PM   #5
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Weeeelll....that's not quite what I was saying. I mean, I enjoy many graphical games, including ones put out by the big boys. Something doesn't have to be innovative to be fun to play. Just this afternoon I installed Irrational's "Freedom Force vs. the 3rd Reich." I understand it's basically unchanged in terms of core mechanics from the first Freedom Force, but that's ok. I really enjoyed that game and am sure I'll enjoy this one. It's not just that they ignore non-graphical games either. They ignore all games that aren't at the AAA level.


I actually greatly enjoy Halo 2's Xbox Live multiplayer component. No, it's not revolutionary, but it is highly evolutionary and is just a really well-designed experience. It's so nice to have a rankings system that means something, for instance. I also really enjoy getting together online with friends or the people I work with to chat and shoot other people up. Halo 2 makes that a very seamless experience.

This is something that thread on furniture seemed to really miss: Innovation is often not at the core of enjoyable experiences. In fact, it's usually not. It's absolutely necessary overall in the long run, of course, but individual products can be quite enjoyable without being innovative. I really like my for instance, but there's nothing innovative about it. It's just a well-done motorcycle.

That, in fact, is why World of Warcraft is doing so incredibly well. It doesn't innovate at all as far as I've seen. It just evolves the DIKU/Everquest model and polishes the #### out of it.

My point, in summary, wasn't about what kind of game is better. It's about the fact that if you want to make innovative games as opposed to evolutionary games, then you better either be Will Wright or be willing to make games with budgets a lot less than $25 million. The opportunity is there. These guys just don't want to take it, because for whatever reason the idea of working on games won't get them on the cover of PC Gamer or whatever doesn't appeal.

--matt
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Old 03-23-2005, 12:48 AM   #6
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Getting on the cover of PC Gamer is added publicity for their game. Added publicity can translate into added profits. They put making money over making quality. Not much different than many other fields of creative endeavor.

Well, that's my point about MUDs. Doesn't just apply to making money, but to appeal. No offense, but the most innovative MUDs I've seen have been free MUDs, built by people who wanted to create a great MUD, had the talent, and put the effort into them, and weren't concerned with making the most popular MUD of all time but rather a quality one. Commercialism and trying to appeal to a broad audience often leads to lesser risk-taking and fewer attempts at creative quality over proven results in an attempt to appease the masses.

Take care,

Jason

P.S.--Above post not intended as a flame (since cries of "flame" seem to flow freely upon any observation made on these boards) and there are examples of non-MUDs and MUDs which managed to appeal to the masses while being innovative. They're just rare.
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Old 03-23-2005, 01:36 AM   #7
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Getting on the cover of PC Gamer is added publicity, which translates into added revenue for the project. To get there though, you have to spend more money. There's no formula to make profits in the games industry, including getting media coverage. 80% of games lose money, including many games that get a lot of press attention.

And it's not that these guys don't make quality games. Warren Spector has made some extremely quality games (System Shock, Thief, etc). There's a reason games like GTA or Halo sell really really well: They are built by some of the most talented developers in the industry and built with a great attention to detail. They aren't innovative (well, GTA isn't anymore. It was once.), but innovation and quality have little to do with each other most of the time. Warren is, flat-out, one of the best developers in the history of computer games.

Well, I'll just say again that I think you're confusing quality and innovation. If I eat a really great steak, I'm enjoying a quality experience, regardless of the fact that a steak is about as far away from innovative as you can get. Similarly, I could cook up an innovative dish composed of peanut butter, tuna, Tabasco, white truffles, and durian fruit, but it would be a horrible thing to eat and a total offence to taste.

--matt
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:25 AM   #8
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And smell...... especially thanks to the durian.
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:04 AM   #9
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Threshold wrote on Mar. 23 2005,08:25
I suppose the conclusion you'd like people to draw from this brilliant argumentation is, that everything innovative stinks, and that only outdated 3-year old dishes are worth savouring?

If so, that's a bit pathetic, really.
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Old 03-23-2005, 04:22 PM   #10
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I imagine it is a lot easier to just attack a straw man than to actually read what someone said and respond to it, eh?
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Old 03-23-2005, 04:36 PM   #11
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Molly O'Hara writes
Put in a similar language and argumentation, a valid answer yo you, Molly, would be:

I suppose you'd like people to think, from your brilliant post, is that you are very mind-limited person, that you cannot read more than one paragraph at a time and that anything you write in response to anything having to do to with the_logos comes from a mis-quote or is just part of your inherent stupidity?

If so, that's a bit strange, really, that you'd have us thinking you're all that.

Take care, read the whole thing again, maybe visit the links given for you to follow and then post again. Or ....

Dismiss all posted, quote this:
I think Achaea's name is too short and make a thread about how the choice of said name has driven IRE to bankrupcy and all people involved with that company to ... perhaps your paragraph quota has been filled and you are no longer able to follow the idea anyway.

With immense respect for you,

Me.
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Old 03-23-2005, 05:44 PM   #12
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Thumbs up

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Old 03-24-2005, 04:06 AM   #13
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Or perhaps I am a thinking human being not blinded by jealousy who is able to express his own opinion honestly.

You should try thinking. It is a lot more productive than your incessant, knee jerk trolling.
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Old 03-24-2005, 09:19 AM   #14
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Actually, I've already added substance to this thread. While my opinion is independent of the one posted by the_logos, it's at least partially concordant. However, it's worth pointing out that while a AAA-type game can be constrained by large-scale market forces (such as pleasing Wal-Mart, etc.), commercial games like IRE runs are also subject to their own set of market forces which change their content in the same direction, to a different magnitude. As I pointed out, it's still very much to their advantage to not take chances, which is why much of their content is, in my opinion, derivative. This doesn't inhibit their success any more than it inhibits the success of TGIF. But it does make them a different beast than a lot of the games discussed on TMS.

After all, why else is the_logos bringing his original post to TMS, if not to discuss it with the broader MUD community? (I know the answer, but humor me.) If he brings such content here, don't be surprised when that community joins the discussion.

In contrast, you've continued with your usual- three 1-2 line posts attacking posters who disagree with him for any reason. All it has done for me is to harden your reputation as his yes-man. Please don't occupy your time any further with my "knee jerk" "trolling" of "jealousy" then- the_logos is capable of discussing his own opinions, and I'm sure you have boot polish to buy.
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Old 03-24-2005, 09:24 AM   #15
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I thought about that possibility, but, no, I'm pretty sure it was the first thing.

I disagree with a fair bit of what the_logos posts, but on his better days the man definitely has some interesting ideas. I remember a time when that was true of you, too, but lately it's just one big leg-hump fest.
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Old 03-24-2005, 09:35 AM   #16
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I don't think that's been in question. He brings a lot of content (like the original post to this thread). I often disagree with his interpretation (and/or manipulation) of said content, but I don't think I've listed 'garden-variety stupid' among his flaws.

Points for being more concise than I was. Brevity not being the soul of my virtues, unfortunately.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:27 AM   #17
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I must say I'm not entirely sure what they were ranting about on Burning Down the House... yes, if you want to make games with a huge budget that will sell massive amounts of copies and make vast sums of money, you have to bend to the publishers, marketers and masses a certain amount. If you want to have more freedom, you can cut out external marketers, possibly even publishers if you want lots of freedom, and work on a smaller budget and sell less copies.

I don't see a problem with either of these methods, it depends on who you are, and what your priorities when it comes to game design are. It's really not that difficult to downsize your operations and cut out parts of your development cycle (much easier than it is to build them up) if you want more freedom.

I also found both Brenda Laurel's parts in the rant and Matt's comments on Brenda Laurel's parts in the rant in his response truly hilarious, and it really cheered me up after dealing with some difficult players.
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:27 PM   #18
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Then how about you stop the jealousy inducted, knee jerk trolling in the first place?

Honestly, no more than 1-2 lines are needed to squish green eyed miscreants like yourself.
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:28 PM   #19
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Translation: When you disagree with the_logos, you're interesting. If you agree with him, you are leg humping.

Pretty open mind you have there........ not.
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Old 03-24-2005, 02:53 PM   #20
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No, Threshold.  If you'll notice, I said I agreed with Matt (and disagreed a bit with his interpretation, but who agrees/disagrees on very point...ah, I'll get to that) but I disagree with your entering of the conversation just to attack people.  You have been accusing everyone else of "knee-jerk trolling" but that really applies equally, if not more so, to your responses.  In both this discussion and the furniture one, your posts have been devoid of any real thought.  Instead, they're unsupported by reasoning as to why you say what you do.  In the other, you over-hyped the ordinary feature of furniture as something it was not.  Here, you began attacking anyone that didn't agree 100% with Matt's post, leveling charges of "jealousy" against all the "trolls" while failing to notice that you're just as black as the kettle, if not blacker.

A person can be just as close-minded by agreeing completely as they can be by disagreeing.  Instead of blind agreement, put some substance into your posts, citing the reasons why you agree/disagree with someone instead of relying on exagerration and accusations of jealousy and trolling and maybe you won't be labeled a kiss-ass.

Disagreement is a natural part of life.  As Ruth Graham said, when "two people agree on everything, one of them is unnecessary."  You're coming across as unnecessary.

Just something to consider.

Take care,

Jason
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