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Old 10-26-2003, 08:41 AM   #21
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Why do people think the license is being violated? Here's the text of it -

"You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way."

Aardwolf claims to not make a profit. No choice but to believe them. Ambiguous between net profit and gross profit, but I don't think anyone wants to stretch so much to say this should be gross profit, instead of net.

"You may under no circumstances charge money for distributing any part of dikumud - this includes the usual $5 charge for "sending the disk" or "just for the disk" etc"

Giving an in-game bonus is not distributing part of the dikumud codebase - which is what they have copyrighted.


I don't see how the license can be interpreted to say rewarding donations for a diku-based non-profit mud is a violation. [b]The license prohibits a profit, and charging for distributing dikumud code.[b]
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Old 10-26-2003, 08:53 AM   #22
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The Diku team have stated the intent of the license. Aardwolf violates that intent - the admin even admitted that "this thread was inevitable".

Why shouldn't they? The license states you cannot make profit "in any possible way", and the Diku team have clarified the meaning. As I said previously, "in any possible way" does not mean "in any way except that which allows me to do exactly what the Diku team have said they don't want".
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:07 AM   #23
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:26 AM   #24
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:37 AM   #25
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How exactly does it 'grind smaller muds into the dirt?'.

Aardwolf didn't GET where it is by accepting donations and we didn't "spend all the money we got" on advertizing to take players away from other muds. The banners you see on TMS this month is the first paid advert we have EVER run, in 7 years online. I would love to see the clickthrough rate, but I'm very sure the hits we are getting is because our players are taking the time to vote, not because of the banner.

Aardwolf got to around average 300 online and then needed help to afford the bandwidth. There are countless players that can confirm  that I financed it completely myself for the first 3 years, then imms helped in year 4. The player help came later.

Slam us on the grounds of license if you like, but bringing 'poor smaller muds' into it just sounds like a politician back to trusty old 'its for the children!'. As I said, this will all be moot in a couple of months anyway.
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:52 AM   #26
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They're not making net profit "in any possible way".  If it's gross profit then every Dikumud accepting a donation is conceivably in violation, whether the reward is giving in-game rewards or just keeping the mud up.
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Old 10-26-2003, 10:24 AM   #27
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In my years as a small business owner, I've never seen any use of the term "gross profit." There is "gross revenue," and there is "profit." I think these two terms are being confused.

Profit is whatever money you have left over after the expenses are paid. Gross revenue is whatever money comes in before the expenses are paid.

If a game owner accepts donations to pay for the server and other operating expenses - not including salaries since the DIKU license forbids "INCOME" to any individual, then the profit would be whatever is left over after those expenses are paid, if any. If there IS anything left over, then yes, the mud operator is receiving a profit. If there is nothing left over, then he isn't.

I ran my small business profitably for a couple of years. That is to say, after I paid for supplies, raw materials to create my product, advertising, and maintenence costs to keep my website up (including the monthly ISP fee), I had money left over that I was able to keep for myself. That leftover - was profit. It was also income, which I had to file and pay taxes on. If I had given myself a set salary according to reasonable and customary wages in my state, I would have operated at a loss, rather than a gain, and my company would not have been profitable.

However, it also would not have been a non-profit organization, because it was a *commercial* venture, meaning, it was designed to make a profit - whether or not it actually succeeded.

That's where "intent" comes in I think. If you ask for money for the express purpose of paying expenses to keep something running, and don't *charge* for it - then you are not operating commercially. If you have money left over from your request, and sink it back into improvements on your game, rather than buying yourself a beer after the hard work you've done, then you are also not -intending- to profit.

If you find yourself with money left over on a regular basis, and stop accepting donations as a result, then you are also not -intending- to profit. If you instead allow the donations to continue pouring in, that's where "intent" becomes questionable. That's where the vaguery shows up. When you are already paying expenses, and the money keeps coming and you don't say "No, we don't need it anymore, thanks" and return it to the donor.

The one diku-based mud I've actually played that accepts donations, has made it clear that they would not accept them if they found themselves with more than they need to maintain the game's functionality.

I even looked up "profit" on and saw a number of different sources and definitions. Not one of them implied that such a thing existed as "gross profit" before expenses.

By definition, profit is what you have AFTER expenses, not before.
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Old 10-26-2003, 10:24 AM   #28
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You need to go no further than Crystal's post on page 1 on this thread.
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Old 10-26-2003, 10:46 AM   #29
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Completely irrevelant legally for a contract, but where is that gotten from?  Would like to read the entire statement if it's stored somewhere.
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Old 10-26-2003, 11:06 AM   #30
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Angry

Dude. You don't even read the whole thread before replying? What good is your opinion if you don't know the conversation up to now?
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Old 10-26-2003, 11:51 AM   #31
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Ask Kavir, he's who I got it from. I'm sure he knows.
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Old 10-26-2003, 01:37 PM   #32
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Dude. I read it a few days ago but forgot, happens at the end of 13-hour graveyard shifts. Give me a break and respond to the hundred words plus I've put some thought into, not give a mocking reply to a single word("Link?")

Those quotes don't mean anything to me, legally or otherwise...these guys aren't articulate enough in English to be exact w/o an interactive dialogue. That reply didn't even mention "profit", the defining word of the license...Assuming the quotes are really from Hans I'd bet the questions were leading away from "profit" and towards the very ambiguous "commercialization". Can't think of any other reason the license would be explained without mentioning profit, when profit is the crux of the legal license.
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Old 10-26-2003, 03:04 PM   #33
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Article 1: Medievia IS violating the DIKU license. It's not including the proper credits to the DIKU authors.

Article 2: SoL doesn't even have -any- license from the Tolkien people.

Article 3: The DIKU license prohibits profit. It does not prohibit commercialization.

Article 4: There are a number of people on this site who have little interest in reality and more interest in promoting an almost religious-style agenda.

None of these facts are really in question.
--matt
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Old 10-26-2003, 06:07 PM   #34
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I still suggest that people should go back and read those threads again. They make such enlightening reading.

Below are some assorted examples of the_logos wisdom from the Diku thread:

the_logos:
and one from the Priests and Zealots thread:

the_logos
I guess part of the problem might be that some of the "religious-style" people don't quite agree about the definition of what is a "worthwhile discussion on mud development".
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Old 10-26-2003, 09:33 PM   #35
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You guys have nothing better to do but talk about this **** over and over again. Heh.
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Old 10-26-2003, 11:20 PM   #36
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So it's obvious that Aardwolf is violating the intent of the Diku licence as stated by the Diku team. So will they be banned?

I could care less but I just love the inconsistencies here.
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Old 10-27-2003, 05:06 AM   #37
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The topic was pretty much identical to the Aardwolf situation. Here's how the conversation went (quoted):

On 29 Aug 2000, I wrote:

A ROM mud by the name of "Dark and Shattered Lands" has started taking donations from the players in exchange for houses/taverns/land ownership within the game. In short:

$10 or more = 2 bedroom house for a character
$20 or more = 4 bedroom house for a character
$30 or more = A dsl-mud.org email alias
$100 or more = All shops but Taverns
$200 or more = A Tavern
$500 or more = Land Ownership to build a Kingdom

The real problem is that the mud owner (Tony Allen) is claiming that you (the Diku team) support this idea. If that's so, it makes it very hard to do anything about Medievia's (or any other muds) donation system - can you please confirm or deny whether he has your support on this issue?


On 29 Aug 2000 Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt replied:

Well, he is clearly using the game for generating profit.

I feel it is important that i make clear how i see the limits of the licence; You should know i am not against donations as such, and he may sell his merchandise as he pleases, but he may not use the game directly for this. The way i usually define this is if the players get some tangible modification within the game for their donations. Then it becomes commercialized. They pay for a service that is within the game.

I have no wish, nor any legal background for stopping donations made from commercials on the website, that offer no compensation game-wise. Nor have i any wish for preventing people selling merchandise on their website, that is related to the game (titled tshirts, mousepads etc..) .. in fact i recommend that you get your money this way.


On 30 Aug 2000, Michael Seifert wrote:

I regret to tell you that Richard is right. It is the intention of the license agreement that you should not receive for donations.

On 30 Aug 2000, Scorn (owner of DSL) wrote:

Would it be safe to assume some of the founders of DikuMud disagree on the license? Also, why is the intent of the license different than the license? The license states you can not make profit. It does not state you may not accept donations such as books, hardware or allowing someone else to pay your co-location fees.

I am not arguing, but I am severly confused at this point why I am being told I am violating an agreement that does not state anything against such activity. Also realzie that I will comply with the wishes of the Diku Team whether it is in writing or not. I have already removed the donation page on my web site but I ask for a fair and reasonable answer to my conerns on this matter.


On 1 Sep 2000 Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt replied:

I do not believe that we disagree on the license.

I am sorry, if my answers have been confusing. I just want to make clear where exactly the licence applies. And that is of course where using the sourcecode we have supplied, or sourcecode derived from our work.

If you give people any in-game benefits for their donations, you are in fact giving a service for the money you have rescieved. That is a commercial transaction, and thus you are commercializing our work. This we object to.

What i wanted to make clear, is that legally and morally we have no control of what you do, that you do not use our work for. Thus, if you want to sell mousepads and whatever from your website, we will not object.

If people want to donate money to you, personally, without having any services rendered using our software, we will not object to this. But if you use our software to render services for money or goods you rescieve, this we object to, as you are then commercializing our software. That we object to.
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Old 10-27-2003, 05:42 AM   #38
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From everything I've read, here and elsewhere, it seems Aardwolf is violating the spirit of the license. The word "donation" shouldn't even be in this thread- they're selling in-game merchandise (points). There is also a precedent for removing MUDs from this site for doing exactly what they are doing.

Whether or not their system would hold up in a court of law, the staff of a privately run website like TMS can exclude them if they wish. In the past, other MUDs have been excluded for selling in-game rewards.

It seems like people are having the wrong debate.
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Old 10-27-2003, 06:50 AM   #39
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Old 10-27-2003, 06:55 AM   #40
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And my own response, three lines later:

"KaVir says 'Because if people violate licenses, we all lose out'"

(followed by numerous nods of agreement).
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