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Old 07-21-2006, 11:51 PM   #1
NotL337
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Old 07-22-2006, 10:14 AM   #2
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Is this going to be a pk-oriented MUD? If magic is going to be this weak, there's going to have to be something to prevent melee classes from completely dominating... i.e. if mages are weak, warriors have to be too. If this isn't going to be a pk-oriented game, then balancing one class against another isn't nearly as important, and you could probably make it work.

Having spells that require multiple mages to cast is a neat idea, but for a startup MUD, you're not likely to have enough players on at one time total - let alone just mage players - to let them use any of it. That might be something you should put on the back burner and develop some day down the road when the playerbase could support it.
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:09 PM   #3
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Contributive casting is something we discussed seriously several years ago, along with all the appropriate handwaving, checking for proper sphere of the contributors, many items to be held and used, lots of nifty incantations, etc. We even had spells that required the contributing team members to be standing in the proper terrain - ie swamp for a swamp gas cloud to obliterate their foes.

It looked great on paper.

However, once we modeled it out, included the delays for generating enough mana so that each person could contribute properly based on their spellcraft knowledge, the time spent to cast the spell, and all the ancillary 'costs,' it became evident that there was a lot more dead air and waiting going on than actual fun and results.

What turned out to be a total blast in theory would have turned into a total grind in operation, and would have driven casters to tears of boredom.

We tried striking several steps and requirements to alleviate this tearful potentiality and found that doing so removed the theatrical qualities that had given it the on-paper draw.

We tried cutting back on the number of players needed to power a super-spell, peeling away the onion layers one at a time, until we discovered that -without the necessities that we'd started with- we had little left of any appeal.  Might as well be one guy in a room casting magic missile for all the fun it generated...

Bottom line: what may be great fun in the design stage can lose a lot of sparkle and shine on repetition, and can introduce grind into the processes which can quickly rival that of many crafting systems.  Plus there is the truth mentioned above pertaining to new games - it may be a very long time before you'll get enough players at skill level to actually pull something like this off - if it takes two mages to get anything done, and all the game has is one.. how fun is that?

That said, I'd say it definitely warrants a serious look.  I have no doubt that someone else can take a much more intelligent approach to this than I did, and turn it into a rollicking fun success.  Just because it didn't work for Legends of Karinth doesn't mean it wouldn't work just fine for you.
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Old 07-22-2006, 08:16 PM   #4
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:13 AM   #5
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I'd be happy to offer some suggestions, NotL33T, though as Fern wrote, some things sound a lot better when you're tossing ideas about than when it comes time for implementation.

I'm a big fan of subtle magic.  When spells and magical items are sufficiently rare and subdued it creates an RP atmosphere I find desirable, one of true appreciation and respect for skilled casters and those in possession of unusual items.  It seems that you feel the same way, so let's talk about the biggest obstacles to this and how to avoid them.

Perhaps most important is the question of balance.  Most muds have classes that are clearly distinguishable from one another, typically in some combination of fighting, magic, and stealth.  Usually it's pretty clear to experienced players which classes have advantages in which areas - for instance, pk.  

A quick but necessary aside: I've played a fair number of games, but for this topic I'll be drawing on my time in DartMud.  This is a skill-based game: there are no levels, and exp is gained neither by killing nor by RP.  There is no exp in the classical sense, simply skill points that can be gained by practicing the skill in question.  For mages this means practicing spells in different mediums, crafters craft things of varying complexity, etc.  Each skill is practiced differently and learning them all can be a daunting task, but also rewarding.  It also means that a single character could learn skills from all the traditional classes - there is no arbitrary distinction.  To avoid having every character "maxed out" there is skill opposition, so that it is in fact harder for a fighter to learn magic, but not impossible.

In terms of the system I've described, it isn't necessary to balance the other classes with mages - which is ultimately a losing proposition.  I would use a system in which anyone could learn magic, and reward players who focus on it.  This serves two purposes: the majority of players can use magic without worrying about being underpowered, and it allows people who want to focus exclusively on magic - knowing full-well they won't be on par with fighters - to do so and to derive pleasure from it in the way that some players enjoy so much (in the same sense that there are players of disadvantaged classes/races in any mud).  I suspect most of us derive great satisfaction not simply in being 'better,' but in being unique, and in finding subtle rewards for our time and effort.

We've tossed around the idea of linking spells, but I think it would balance far better if it had been included since the mud's inception.  Since you're starting fresh, a few issues I think are important:
 A major pitfall of mudding is that people simply can't play all the time (though I know some of us have proven exception to that rule at one point or another).  While it is very important that characters rely upon one another, don't go so far as to make it inconvenient for people to get things done in a reasonable period of time.
 I'd avoid the 'npc apprentice' bit.  The purpose of group casting is to a) balance powerful spells and b) increase player inter-dependency.  Npc's defeat that on both counts.  I'd argue that making it a challenge to cast some spells is very rewarding for players.  Here's an example: one of the most powerful spells in Dartmud is 'reincarnation' (not terribly surprising in a mud with permadeath).  In terms of aura (aka mana, spell points, etc) it is extremely draining not only to cast but to practice at all.  When Dm was younger and mages weren't as knowledgeable or powerful, it was almost unheard of to find anyone who could skillfully cast a reinc - a fact that would probably shock a lot of our newer players, since mages these days (15 years later) are far doughtier.  Back then, however, groups of mages would have to pool together to support whoever was doing the reincarnation, and far from being a grueling experience you'll often find older players who miss the 'good old days' (well, who doesn't?) when people had to rally together more to get things done.  Bottom line: don't worry if it's hard at first.  As my favorite comic strip dad often says,  "It builds character."

You mentioned players being able to do anything with their character.  Kudos.  Just one caution: a lot of mudders shudder at the mention of "unrestricted PK" because it often boils down to people repeatedly killing each other and generally being complete and unfettered a-holes.  Dartmud has absolutely no PK restrictions, so long as it's done purely in-game.  Griefing is almost unheard of, because few people with time invested in their characters are willing to throw that away for senseless violence.  Permanent death is a heavy penalty, so people RP and band together by necessity.  If you don't have permadeath in your mud (and I'll warn you now, a lot of mudders can't stand the idea), then you'll have to carefully balance how griefers are dealt with by the players.  

Lastly, you wrote that you'd try to balance hack'n'slashing with RP exp.  There may be muds out there that have worked it out to a point acceptable to its (remaining) players, but in my opinion it's a path fraught with pitfalls.  You can hardly find two mudders who'll agree on what level of RP a mud should have, let alone a fair and balanced system that involves two systems of exp rewards *and* at the same time balancing the levelling rate of two wildly different classes (if you take that route of a traditional class system).  My final suggestion for you is to use a skill-based system.  These can be easily tailored to fit the needs of classes and group casting, and I find that it makes more sense to practice what you use than to kill things as a raise-all.  In any case, rewarding RP with exp is a blurry, imprecise, and inevitably subjective area better left alone.  The best systems give players broad power to administer themselves.

I trust I've touched on some points of interest to you.  After so many years of mudding, I hope my experience can be put to some good use.  I've been rather liberal with my sharing of Dartmud's core concepts, so if down the line you do make use of these ideas, I'm sure the creator staff would appreciate any kind mention.  Good luck, and if I happen upon your mud one day I'll give it a try.  You best be nice to newbies!
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:19 AM   #6
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" Good luck, and if I happen upon Aarn one day I'll give it a try. You best be nice to newbies! "

Aarn isnt the name of the game hes creating lol.. That was who he was replying to.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:01 PM   #7
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The SMAUG codebase already has the machinery for multi-caster spells built in (which, incidentally, can be built online with no coding whatsoever, thanks to the SMAUGSPELLS system), although very few SMAUG MUDs make use of it. On the SMAUG flagship MUD itself, various cleric spells were made multicaster, but they were rarely ever used, which sort of lends evidence toward what others are saying.

You might be interested in the magic system at GodWars II, although if it's like I remember, itll take a solid day of playing before you can access any of it. It's not that it's multicaster there, but I'd classify it as more subtle than most: rather than "cast fireball", you manually perform actions (snap fingers, point, clap hands, etc) which, performed in right combinations, invoke the magic.
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:41 PM   #8
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I also like the idea of what I call skill-oriented magic combat. For ages, on Clandestine MUD, we used a "cast blah" see result system that is standard on most MUDs. Most newbies would play spellcasters, as being a caster class was easier to learn than being another class - and we could not easily correct this, as it does not make sense when balancing player-killing to have spellcasters to not be on par with other classes.

Recently, we stripped away that system and went to a chant system for most spells, which requires timing, forethought, counter-spelling, movement, etc - and added in a more complicated-to-use ranged spell system... this has made casting a lot more dynamic and benefits those with more skill who want to play caster classes, without being over-powered.

Specifically, though, for your ideas - here are my suggestions. I really like the idea of a very powerful(but simple) "fireball" spell taking up a ton of mana and dealing heavy damage. Timer it - make sure it cannot be immediately recast. Otherwise, Mages will find ways to quickly restore their mana and keep "bombing" their opponents with powerful attacks. If balanced right, spells that drain a lot of mana and are on various "timers" will allow casters to face meleers, though with caution.

As to your combined casting idea - here is what I suggest and warn of; first - be careful that it is not boring. Simply linking up and casting a spell may be effective, but it won't excite players. Instead, link up and cause a "mini-game" to appear; for instance, some kind of "magic elemental bar" that they have to balance, or some sort of short, but randomly designed maze where they have to find each other's "spiritual" self by moving around and finding each other within a short period of time(say, 30 seconds to a minute, depending on the size of the maze) and then join together to "cast" the spell. All of the sudden, you have a dynamic, skill-oriented, always changing mini-game that runs the ability to team up for spells... casting can be made fun with things like that. We use ideas like that on Clandestine for casting, fusing with other players, escaping from Hades, travelling to remote areas via a doorway, blacksmithing, technocrafting, and more.

In short, anything can be made dynamic and skill-oriented without messing with the "balance fundamentals" of the system. If you can first player-test a system that is balanced(aka, combined casting is not over-powered and mages are comparably strong to meleers), then you can go from there to make all of your skills dynamic, creative, and even into mini-games for certain things(especially combined skills/efforts). I know this has been a mainstay at Clandestine MUD for a long time, and is probably our best feature.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:08 AM   #9
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Thanks for pointing that out, Daedroth... I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the only response to my post was entirely off the point, but I'll certainly fix the error.

As long as I'm posting I'll reopen the question: what do people think of subtler magic and its practical implementation?
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:59 AM   #10
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