Tavern of the Blue Hand

the_logos · 05-08-2005, 06:28 PM

Whoa, what did you say? Did you just threaten to hurt someone's children over the DIKU LICENSE?! You are a piece of ****.

I'm lodging an official complaint with Synozeer, asking that you be banned. That's so out of bounds it's not even funny.

--matt

mudnutx · 05-08-2005, 07:05 PM

For crying out loud, lighten up! Here's a sleeping pill and two shots of valium.

Of course he isn't going to threaten the infamous Medievia CEO or his kids. It is called humour. I thought it was quite funny.

Anyway, what is this whole business of Medthievia about? having done quite a bit of research on it, from reading old debates between Kavir and Highlander [one of the MUD's founders] to reading the comments by former staffers on MEdievia who resigned in protest at the licence usage, in a simplistic sense it boils down to:

1. What code or codebase did Medievia begin with?
2. what is their code now, having entered the beta version of their latest stage of Medievia, Medievia 5 ?
3. What is the definition of a derivative work that must still be bound by the DIKU licence even if the code becomes 100 percent modified?

I am unsure what the answer to [2] is because not being a current coder on Medievia, I have never seen their code.

The answer to [1] appears to be starting with the diku/merc codebase.

Based on [1] above and the MUD's continued derivative status, I think that Medievia probably deserves the accusations. But I can also understand TMS giving them the benefit of the doubt now that they have begun Medievia 5.

This is an attempt to be as balanced as possible on the issue. It requires some effort to do so. I have the bias that I was a builder on Medievia and they sacked me for reacting to their incompetent management of my building work.

so now I build futuristic zones for Tempus instead.

KaVir · 05-08-2005, 07:14 PM

You might also want to read the other threads, such as the one started by the_logos in one of his increasingly unprofessional posts, in which Soleil no longer even bothers to deny being based on the Diku code, but instead just claims that there's nothing the Diku team can do about it. Of course that doesn't bother the_logos here, who apparently seems to think he's extended "professional courtesy" to them by giving them a warm welcome (which, in retrospect, is probably quite fitting).

GuruPlayer · 05-08-2005, 07:51 PM

I posted this reply on another thread, but I figured I'll post it again here:
I am a mud player, I don't know coding, am not & have never been an IMM for any mud, have never reached Hero/avatar status on any mud... just a mud player. Now I've been playing muds for a little over a year, so I guess you could call me a veteran newbie. So I hadn't heard of this Medievia controversy, & didn't know what to make of it. Then I see that Molly O'Hara, someone who's posts I've always found informative, & respectful to all, posts a thread that she is leaving this board. That is a real shame, and I hope Ms O'Hara comes back, the mud community needs her. Be that as it may, I punch "Medievia code theft" on Google, & read a bunch of different sites, & find a very informative one at

Now I have been a professional actor for 30 years & I believe I know a little something about copyright infringement, I would like to thank everyone who has posted their objections to Medievia coming back to this website, if you hadn't, I wouldn't have known anything, & no doubt would have played the mud. Now that I did a little research, I can assure you that I will never try it, I will make every effort to inform other newbie mudders like me. The fact that the thieves had a lawyer look for loopholes tells you all you need to know about their moral alignment.

All in all, I'll be hoping Molly will reconsider, we need her thoughtful insight a #### of a lot more than the logos & others of his ilk...

the_logos · 05-08-2005, 07:56 PM

Yes, clearly, using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil, not an indication that you're running a business. Darn those lawyers. #### them! So much better to listen to random forum posters for legal advice. By your childish logic, basically every company in the world must be evil, since they all employ lawyers to investigate things like what a contract actually says as opposed to what a few forum posters want it to say.

--matt

Yui Unifex · 05-08-2005, 08:05 PM

You missed the point.

What GuruPlayer writes:
What the_logos sees:
Any questions?

the_logos · 05-08-2005, 08:11 PM

Yui Unifex · 05-08-2005, 08:19 PM

Sorry, my post about the particular point you missed was not concerned with the quality of the Diku license. It was only concerned with your humorous attempt to twist "[they] had a lawyer look for loopholes" into "using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil". One does not follow from the other.

If you want your other, more important points to be taken with any sort of respect then you would do well to avoid such mistakes.

GuruPlayer · 05-08-2005, 08:22 PM

Well. that's the difference between me & the_logos, I'm just a player & the_logos, unlike 99% of the posters, is in it for the money...gee...That must be why there's no reviewing of any of your muds, hmmmmm?... Yet every couple of weeks like clockwork, here comes another new promotion thread for one of the IRE muds. See, the "professionals" don't look at things like licenses with the premise: "Is it wrong?", they look at it as: "Will I get caught?"

the_logos · 05-08-2005, 08:22 PM

My partners have asked me in no uncertain terms to stop wasting my time (and thus Iron Realms' time to some extent) arguing with inconsequential random forum posters, particularly when an issue is already settled, such as the Medievia issue (they will be permitted here, they will continue to operate, there's nothing the Kavirs of the world can do about it, etc.). They're right, and I'm wrong.

Enjoy your futile complaints about Medievia! I'm sure you'll continue to have about the same amount of success in preventing them from being successful as you have in the past.

--matt

Jaregarde · 05-08-2005, 08:24 PM

WarHound · 05-08-2005, 09:53 PM

Sad that Molly is leaving.

I would rather Medievia stayed off of TMS, but that's Synozeer's call and I'll leave it to him. But aside from mild distaste, I rarely give Medievia thought. I don't like thieves, but is my dislike so intense I'm going to go out of my way to flame them? That's stupid. I'll just ignore them, and reccomend that others do the same.

I hate people...

-WP

Keriwena · 05-08-2005, 10:34 PM

Iluvatar · 05-08-2005, 11:14 PM

ROFL...Synozeer has always presented as an intelligent person and I've moderated for a bit of time as has KaVir so we've seen him function. Do you honestly think if the public outcry was large enough, Midievia would survive on TMS? I'm sure the advertising coins are nice but I don't think he makes a living off of it. As to continuing to operate, sure they will, dishonor is an honorable behavior when you get to cash the checks, I just don't need to see it in my face.

I was anti-Midievia on TMC and walked away from TMC largely because of their presence and the other children flaming most of the things other people said. Fortunately, we have a decent cadre of intelligent people here and it really never gets as bad as TMC.

edited to fix the backwards quote symbols.

dragon master · 05-09-2005, 12:59 AM

Whoa, I actually agree with the_logos here. Just because somebody's a complete *** doesn't mean you should kill their children, even though it may say so in the bible.

Can't you find other ways to go about this? I hope you were just joking, but even so, that's pretty awful.

Berg · 05-09-2005, 01:25 AM

I see a lot of posts on this topic in one forum or another and i do expect to get flamed....
I voice my view on the matter Diku intented the code to be used for the benifit of many not the enrichment of a few by useing their code for personal gain.
Finding loopholes useing lawers who cares turn your backs on the issue refuse to give it any standing in the mud community and stop supporting those that help it along.
For those that support this immoral use of the law to polute an artist work with commercial gain shame on you.

If you dont like what I say live with it, thats my oppinion

Berg · 05-09-2005, 01:25 AM

sorry i double clicke the post button

KaVir · 05-09-2005, 04:11 AM

By which, of course, you mean that your partners have asked you to stop making even more bad publicity for their muds by associating yourself with and publically defending a well-known mud thief.

You should listen to them more often, and perhaps one day people might even start to take your posts seriously.

Ilkidarios · 05-09-2005, 06:00 PM

Yeah, that is pretty overboard. It's a freaking MUD license! How passionate can you get about this stuff?

05-08-2005, 06:13 PM	#1
gth Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 50

05-08-2005, 06:28 PM	#2
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Whoa, what did you say? Did you just threaten to hurt someone's children over the DIKU LICENSE?! You are a piece of ****. I'm lodging an official complaint with Synozeer, asking that you be banned. That's so out of bounds it's not even funny. --matt

05-08-2005, 07:05 PM	#3
mudnutx New Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20	For crying out loud, lighten up! Here's a sleeping pill and two shots of valium. Of course he isn't going to threaten the infamous Medievia CEO or his kids. It is called humour. I thought it was quite funny. Anyway, what is this whole business of Medthievia about? having done quite a bit of research on it, from reading old debates between Kavir and Highlander [one of the MUD's founders] to reading the comments by former staffers on MEdievia who resigned in protest at the licence usage, in a simplistic sense it boils down to: 1. What code or codebase did Medievia begin with? 2. what is their code now, having entered the beta version of their latest stage of Medievia, Medievia 5 ? 3. What is the definition of a derivative work that must still be bound by the DIKU licence even if the code becomes 100 percent modified? I am unsure what the answer to [2] is because not being a current coder on Medievia, I have never seen their code. The answer to [1] appears to be starting with the diku/merc codebase. Based on [1] above and the MUD's continued derivative status, I think that Medievia probably deserves the accusations. But I can also understand TMS giving them the benefit of the doubt now that they have begun Medievia 5. This is an attempt to be as balanced as possible on the issue. It requires some effort to do so. I have the bias that I was a builder on Medievia and they sacked me for reacting to their incompetent management of my building work. so now I build futuristic zones for Tempus instead.

05-08-2005, 07:14 PM	#4
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	You might also want to read the other threads, such as the one started by the_logos in one of his increasingly unprofessional posts, in which Soleil no longer even bothers to deny being based on the Diku code, but instead just claims that there's nothing the Diku team can do about it. Of course that doesn't bother the_logos here, who apparently seems to think he's extended "professional courtesy" to them by giving them a warm welcome (which, in retrospect, is probably quite fitting).

05-08-2005, 07:51 PM	#5
GuruPlayer Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 73	I posted this reply on another thread, but I figured I'll post it again here: I am a mud player, I don't know coding, am not & have never been an IMM for any mud, have never reached Hero/avatar status on any mud... just a mud player. Now I've been playing muds for a little over a year, so I guess you could call me a veteran newbie. So I hadn't heard of this Medievia controversy, & didn't know what to make of it. Then I see that Molly O'Hara, someone who's posts I've always found informative, & respectful to all, posts a thread that she is leaving this board. That is a real shame, and I hope Ms O'Hara comes back, the mud community needs her. Be that as it may, I punch "Medievia code theft" on Google, & read a bunch of different sites, & find a very informative one at Now I have been a professional actor for 30 years & I believe I know a little something about copyright infringement, I would like to thank everyone who has posted their objections to Medievia coming back to this website, if you hadn't, I wouldn't have known anything, & no doubt would have played the mud. Now that I did a little research, I can assure you that I will never try it, I will make every effort to inform other newbie mudders like me. The fact that the thieves had a lawyer look for loopholes tells you all you need to know about their moral alignment. All in all, I'll be hoping Molly will reconsider, we need her thoughtful insight a #### of a lot more than the logos & others of his ilk...

05-08-2005, 07:56 PM	#6
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Yes, clearly, using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil, not an indication that you're running a business. Darn those lawyers. #### them! So much better to listen to random forum posters for legal advice. By your childish logic, basically every company in the world must be evil, since they all employ lawyers to investigate things like what a contract actually says as opposed to what a few forum posters want it to say. --matt

05-08-2005, 08:05 PM	#7
Yui Unifex Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 323	You missed the point. What GuruPlayer writes: What the_logos sees: Any questions?

05-08-2005, 08:11 PM	#8
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305

05-08-2005, 08:19 PM	#9
Yui Unifex Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 323	Sorry, my post about the particular point you missed was not concerned with the quality of the Diku license. It was only concerned with your humorous attempt to twist "[they] had a lawyer look for loopholes" into "using a lawyer is an indication that you're evil". One does not follow from the other. If you want your other, more important points to be taken with any sort of respect then you would do well to avoid such mistakes.

05-08-2005, 08:22 PM	#10
GuruPlayer Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 73	Well. that's the difference between me & the_logos, I'm just a player & the_logos, unlike 99% of the posters, is in it for the money...gee...That must be why there's no reviewing of any of your muds, hmmmmm?... Yet every couple of weeks like clockwork, here comes another new promotion thread for one of the IRE muds. See, the "professionals" don't look at things like licenses with the premise: "Is it wrong?", they look at it as: "Will I get caught?"

05-08-2005, 08:24 PM	#12
Jaregarde New Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 25

05-08-2005, 09:53 PM	#13
WarHound Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Locked in a place where no one goes... Home MUD: Armageddon.org Posts: 219	Sad that Molly is leaving. I would rather Medievia stayed off of TMS, but that's Synozeer's call and I'll leave it to him. But aside from mild distaste, I rarely give Medievia thought. I don't like thieves, but is my dislike so intense I'm going to go out of my way to flame them? That's stupid. I'll just ignore them, and reccomend that others do the same. I hate people... -WP

05-08-2005, 10:34 PM	#14
Keriwena New Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11

05-08-2005, 11:14 PM	#15
Iluvatar Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mississippi USA Posts: 142	ROFL...Synozeer has always presented as an intelligent person and I've moderated for a bit of time as has KaVir so we've seen him function. Do you honestly think if the public outcry was large enough, Midievia would survive on TMS? I'm sure the advertising coins are nice but I don't think he makes a living off of it. As to continuing to operate, sure they will, dishonor is an honorable behavior when you get to cash the checks, I just don't need to see it in my face. I was anti-Midievia on TMC and walked away from TMC largely because of their presence and the other children flaming most of the things other people said. Fortunately, we have a decent cadre of intelligent people here and it really never gets as bad as TMC. edited to fix the backwards quote symbols.

05-09-2005, 12:59 AM	#16
dragon master Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 106	Whoa, I actually agree with the_logos here. Just because somebody's a complete *** doesn't mean you should kill their children, even though it may say so in the bible. Can't you find other ways to go about this? I hope you were just joking, but even so, that's pretty awful.

05-09-2005, 01:25 AM	#17
Berg New Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7	I see a lot of posts on this topic in one forum or another and i do expect to get flamed.... I voice my view on the matter Diku intented the code to be used for the benifit of many not the enrichment of a few by useing their code for personal gain. Finding loopholes useing lawers who cares turn your backs on the issue refuse to give it any standing in the mud community and stop supporting those that help it along. For those that support this immoral use of the law to polute an artist work with commercial gain shame on you. If you dont like what I say live with it, thats my oppinion

05-09-2005, 04:11 AM	#19
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	By which, of course, you mean that your partners have asked you to stop making even more bad publicity for their muds by associating yourself with and publically defending a well-known mud thief. You should listen to them more often, and perhaps one day people might even start to take your posts seriously.

05-09-2005, 06:00 PM	#20
Ilkidarios Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Name: Lamont Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 436	Yeah, that is pretty overboard. It's a freaking MUD license! How passionate can you get about this stuff?

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