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Old 06-15-2005, 06:31 PM   #21
Estarra
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Originally Posted by (Akraasiel @ June 15 2005,14:04)
If roleplay is truely encouraged, then its an RPE, if it is merely allowed, with no tangible benefits within the game to it, then it is RPA, and if it is essential to gameplay, with no other route for advancement, then a game is RPI. If no roleplay whatsoever is coded for within the game, nor encouraged by the staff, then it is Hack and Slash. All of these games have their appeal, but the concept of advertising a RPA as an RPE or a RPA as a hack and slash, I find unsettling. That was the entire point of my original post, and to spark discussion on where the dividing lines lie.
If there is a craft system, and players can design and sell their crafts for in-game currency, isn't this a reward for their RP and thus an RPE by your definition?

If there is a quest that impacts RP of the world, and players can gain experience/items for doing this quest, isn't this a reward for their RP and thus an RPE by your definition?

If there is a political system, and RP campaigning for positions results in being the head of a guild (or whatever) with special privileges inherent therewith, isn't this a reward for their RP and thus an RPE by your definition?

Maybe I'm really not sure I fully understand your definition of RPE. Perhaps you you could give us a list of MUDs that, by your definition, is an RPE?
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by (Estarra @ June 16 2005,00:31)
If there is a craft system, and players can design and sell their crafts for in-game currency, isn't this a reward for their RP and thus an RPE by your definition?
If there is a combat system, and players can use it to kill and loot monsters for in-game currency, then would that be a reward for RP? If not, why is it different to crafting? If so, does that mean every mud with a combat system is RPE?
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ June 15 2005,19:40)
If there is a combat system, and players can use it to kill and loot monsters for in-game currency, then would that be a reward for RP?  If not, why is it different to crafting?  If so, does that mean every mud with a combat system is RPE?
Personally, I do think bashing monsters can be an RP experience, whether or not there is any "loot", especially if there's some RP consequence to bashing monsters.

I guess the question is what is the "tangible benefit" that rewards RP. To me, "tangible benefit" would be experience, positions, gold, special emotes, whatever.
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by (Estarra @ June 16 2005,01:46)
I guess the question is what is the "tangible benefit" that rewards RP. To me, "tangible benefit" would be experience, positions, gold, special emotes, whatever.
Well when most people talk about rewarding RP in a mud, they mean directly rewarding people for the act of roleplaying itself, much like many tabletop roleplaying games do.

On the other hand, things such as combat, crafting and the like are generally recognised as being game elements with their own rewards. This is because the quality of your roleplaying has no bearing on any rewards you might receive - and indeed, the player who spends time acting the part of a baker is likely to be rewarded less than the player who just sits there churning out pies, because they'll be taking time away from the reward-aspect of the system.

I believe that is also the point one of the previous posters was trying to get at when he said that such a system discouraged roleplaying; it rewards those who place the game mechanics before roleplaying.
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:16 PM   #25
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Crafting for currency, fighting monsters to gain experience, going through a quest for a powerful item, all of these are achievements and don't automatically imply roleplaying. That's what makes the difference between environments where roleplaying is encouraged and where roleplaying is just a static factor. When all actions are expected to have elements of a character's personality, a unique flavor that's all theirs, when that sort of behavior's just expected, I'd call it RPI. When it can be said to just add to the experience, but not be required, I'd call it RPE.

The thing is, though, it all comes back to the issue of consistancy. If your character passionately hacks his way through a cluster of small fuzzy mammals one moment and then, under similar circumstances, just passively kills them to gain EXP, there's not that consistant environment. What would cause your character to act differently?

In RPI MUDs, there's also the element of entertaining others and adding to the gameworld with your roleplaying, rather than just using it as another way of achieving things you could do alone. That even if nobody gets a gidget out of the experience, it can still be worth it, rather than have everybody clammor for EXP at the end of an event.

But these are my personal feelings on the issue. I've played both types of games, and it should be obvious which sort I prefer, though I don't look down on MUDs where roleplaying isn't as emphasized. I just think they happen to resemble Progress Quest more often than not.
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Old 06-16-2005, 10:52 AM   #26
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Actually I hold 'roleplaying enforced' in rather high esteem, the thing is to be sure about the general standards for what roleplaying is.

If staff themselves cannot agree, and enforces roleplaying differently depending on the admin online or the player involved - 'roleplaying enforced' is just a greek tragedy with the only difference it is the admins that are picking on you instaed of the gods.

I have heard stories about such things, and experienced it first-hand as well in at least two of the big free muds that are 'roleplaying enforced', can only say that the only one's I respect is the ones that can edmit it can be a problem.

Having one admin come in and critisise your butt off (or even worse trying to educate you although you been around the game longer then he/she has) for something another player was rewarded for last week by another admin is not 'enforcing roleplay' - it is enforcing madness.

Otherwise I must agree with Gabocha.
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Old 06-19-2005, 12:32 PM   #27
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This thread illustrates why I don't think labels like "RPI" are very meaningful. Different people have different ideas of what is IC and what is OOC.

If forced to propose one, I suppose a good boundary is whether or not other players know you (inside the game) as a player and character, or only as a character. In a role-playing-enforced environment, there shouldn't be any way to tell who is playing who within the game.
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Old 06-19-2005, 01:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Estarra @ June 16 2005,01:46)
I guess the question is what is the "tangible benefit" that rewards RP. To me, "tangible benefit" would be experience, positions, gold, special emotes, whatever.
Well when most people talk about rewarding RP in a mud, they mean directly rewarding people for the act of roleplaying itself, much like many tabletop roleplaying games do.
I think the question of what tangible benefits are rewards for RP misses the point. Tangible rewards is just one type of encouragement. Whole reams of educational literature have been written on how to encourage children to learn, for instance, and rarely do those methods have anything to do with giving the children tangible rewards for learning. Instead, the encouragement is usually built into the structure of the system, much like in most RP-encouraged MUDs. Most successful examples of systemic encouragement designed to elicit particular sets of behaviors do not use the hand-the-dude-a-lollipop type of encouragement. For instance, a classic example of a way to discourage crime in a crappy neighborhood is not to give people lollipops (or whatever) for behaving lawfully. It's to change the culture of the area by, for instance, repairing broken windows, cleaning up graffiti, etc. In this way, people are encouraged to keep their neighborhoods freer of crime and cleaner generally (well-documented to work too) and that encouragement is part of the 'system' of the neighborhood.

--matt
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Old 07-06-2005, 10:26 PM   #29
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It is quite simply folks. "Roleplaying" is playing a role, assuming an identity other than your own. Nothing will ever change that. "Roleplaying" is not defined by the degree of how you choose to act out this identity.

Simply put, all MUDs have "roleplaying"... it is circumstances presented that complicates interpretation. What are these complications? It is the world, it is the code, it is how you play, interaction and reaction. So do not claim that a certain class of MUD lacks roleplay. In fact, it is safe to say that the existance of roleplay does not make the MUD or even make it better but the essence of the games lies in how the players play the role.

"Roleplaying Encouraged"... what does that mean to you? If its purpose is to encourage player to interact with their world and other players on a level, a personal level apart from "hacking" and "slashing" ... then that is not the best term to use.

To me, "Roleplaying Encouraged" means simply to stay in character.

To me, it does not mean to react and interact with the environment is a specific, stereotypical way.

What if "hacking" and "slashing" is an important part of a certain MUD and certain character, whether it is circumstance, their choice or how the game is designed? We cannot criticize how a certain group plays when how one goes about playing depends on, again, the game itself. If the game is designed for "more specific roleplaying" (using the expression for lack of a better term), it is only natural that they will interact differently.

So, "roleplaying" is self explanatory. It is a principle of gameplay, an important part of all MUDs.

I think this post is more about the degrees of IC and OCC because there here is a difference between "hacking" and "slashing" because of your character's survival, path, training and personality, and "hacking" and "slashing" to improve your numbers and rankings in order to have some L337 STATS.

It is the OCCers that ruin the game.

A couple words of advice, always remember to stay IC ^_-.
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Old 08-11-2005, 11:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by (Akraasiel @ June 15 2005,14:21)
Youre giving players a framework, within which to roleplay, but this isnt actually encouraging your players to roleplay.  It goes back to my previous analogy of giving someone the tools to do something, does that mean they will do it? Of course not. But if you give them some form of tangible encouragement for it, as well as the tools to do so, then you bet that they will go out of their way to do it. That's the difference between roleplay encouraged and roleplay allowed.
Most of my mudding has revolved around an RPG where (from my personal experience), roleplaying seems...optional rather than encouraged for the most part.  New players who come there seeking roleplay-intensive interaction are encouraged by fellow players but it seems extremely difficult to self-sustain an RP environment yourself if you're the sole contributer.   Occasionally I've noticed a domino effect of "this person is rp-ing so I will" but that doesn't seem to last long.  

For my part, it's possible that despite years of RP-ing with this specific MUD my PC experience has been limited enough to give a biased slant on the game type, (so pardon me if I've misinterpreted it) but I don't believe my summation to be that far off.  But finally, for my question:

If the administration doesn't support a  reward base for RP or acts as rp-enforcers, how then can one spur roleplay?  Any suggestions?
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by (golden_child @ Aug. 11 2005,11:56)
If the administration doesn't support a reward base for RP or acts as rp-enforcers, how then can one spur roleplay? Any suggestions?
Consider 'rewards' in a less narrow fashion. For instance, hold roleplaying events in which non-roleplayers are simply not going to have fun. Build up the value of roleplaying by "rewarding" good roleplayers with roleplaying interaction with, for instance, in-game Gods or important NPCs, etc. Provide histories and a coherent world to give roleplayers something to build off of. Etc.

--matt
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:29 PM   #32
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If you are a player of a game where admin doesn't support RP, and you want RP to be more inclusive, enforced, and supported, then the only thing you really can do is find a different game.

You might also consider that some games are built with code that doesn't support RP-intensive game play. An example is a game with a massive verb-list, and limited emote system. By providing "canned" emotes, you are essentially telling people "this is the ONLY way you can express your character, there are no other options. You MUST smile cheerfully, you MUST frown with disapprovement, you MUST sob like a baby, you MUST hop around like a cottontail. You cannot smile, frown, cry, or hop any other way, for any other reason. Furthermore, everyone else who smiles, frowns, cries, or hops, will do so the exact same way you do."

If you find this limiting, then you need to find a game that provides less limitation. There are many out there, but the primary three RPIs (where roleplay isn't an option, it isn't just encouraged, or just enforced, or just "intense" - it fits a very strict and specific criteria) are Armageddon, Shadows of Isuldur, and Harshlands.

There are also the MUSH-type games, where EVERYTHING is emoted/posed out - but it sounds like you're looking more for a game that supports coded commands for doing stuff AND serious roleplay. An RPI would be more fitting to that criteria than the average MUSH (though I'm sure there are exceptions).
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:40 PM   #33
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Sorry for all the targetting IRE games, you guys. But im gonna talk a little about their rp problem. YOU HAVE TO HACK N SLASH FOR A YEAR BEFORE ANYTHING YOU DO MATTERS. Most, not all, but most players will ignore any ideas or comments made by the average character. The PCs who are strong, buffed up guys/girls who run guilds or cities (or advisors to such characters) are the only ones that really make a difference on anything in the world or society. In other words, any rp you do is worth about as much as a rag covered in snot.

Here are some basic guidelines you must meet in order to make a difference in most RPE games.

a) Played for a very long time, reached high up position in guild/city or godliness. (applies to builder, administrator and the people who monitor the game)

b) Know a very high up character/immortal or several of these. (they can back up your rp and MAKE what you say or do important)

c) SPECIAL IRE RULE: Buy a thousand dollars in credits, become buddy buddy with everyone with important positions in the game by buttering their palms. You can also become the richest most powerful PC in the game by simply using a few of your credits yourself, and selling a few on the credit market.
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:53 PM   #34
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That's what I didn't like about IRE games.  I felt worthless, like in real life.  I felt like I was back in high school with class divisions.  All the cool people who were impossibly well established and had MILLIONS of friends are the polar opposite of me, the veritable "nerd" of the game who didn't know anybody and spent his time on lone raids.  I made it to level 11 and quit.  It just got unbearable, I wanted to make a difference and I couldn't.

I also fell immediately into the droll stage of online games within the first few days of playing. There's just not enough variety in things to do. I mean, there were lots of things to do, but they were mostly the same. Like I said earlier, I didn't get very far, but I made up a list of everything I saw. You could hunt rats, hunt pixies, hunt pygmies, hunt kobolds, hunt butterflies, hunt wildcats, and pretty much do variants of the same thing over and over. No offense to people who like IRE games, but it's just not my thing.
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Daedroth @ Aug. 11 2005,17:40)
b) Know a very high up character/immortal or several of these. (they can back up your rp and MAKE what you say or do important)
I don't think this would be true. I may know Matt here, but he probably wouldn't give jack squat about "Tithesus the Garbage-Digger" in Achaea.
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Daedroth @ Aug. 11 2005,17:40)
Sorry for all the targetting IRE games, you guys. But im gonna talk a little about their rp problem. YOU HAVE TO HACK N SLASH FOR A YEAR BEFORE ANYTHING YOU DO MATTERS. Most, not all, but most players will ignore any ideas or comments made by the average character. The PCs who are strong, buffed up guys/girls who run guilds or cities (or advisors to such characters) are the only ones that really make a difference on anything in the world or society. In other words, any rp you do is worth about as much as a rag covered in snot.

Here are some basic guidelines you must meet in order to make a difference in most RPE games.

a) Played for a very long time, reached high up position in guild/city or godliness. (applies to builder, administrator and the people who monitor the game)

b) Know a very high up character/immortal or several of these. (they can back up your rp and MAKE what you say or do important)
Yes, to have a big impact on the world, you have to stand out from the other players in some way. You can't just log in and be taken seriously any more than you would be taken seriously by voters if you just randomly ran for office, for instance. You have to do something that other players are going to respect or admire for whatever reason first.

What that has to do with encouraging RP though, I don't know. Roleplaying exists in everything from great achievements to flirting with another character in a tavern. Roleplaying saving a kingdom or roleplaying a castle maid are equally valid as roleplaying. One may be less exciting than the other, but excitement is also not limited to roleplaying.

Perhaps instead of attacking popular games that you happen to not like, we could actually have a discussion on encouraging roleplaying?

--matt
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Aug. 11 2005,17:29)
If you are a player of a game where admin doesn't support RP,  and you want RP to be more inclusive, enforced, and supported, then the only thing you really can do is find a different game.

You might also consider that some games are built with code that doesn't support RP-intensive game play. An example is a game with a massive verb-list, and limited emote system. By providing "canned" emotes, you are essentially telling people "this is the ONLY way you can express your character, there are no other options.
Pardon this, but I'm going to address several parties here...

Jazuela,  I've actually played SoI as well as an IRE game and I can see what you mean (with the former) about roleplay being a strict requirement.  Without flaming anyone, you definately get a sense of what the limits are for asking IC and OOC information and it was a shock having never been in a RP-intensive environment like that before.  I do think that perhaps there are ways of incorporating more custom emotes as a player and relying less on the game's standards if you want to encourage roleplay, but, as other threads have previously discussed, you don't want to go overly flowery.  Perhaps that's a start in the right direction.

To Daedroth and Ilkidarious, aren't most MUDS just a reflection of real-life set in a fantasy world?  If you "feel worthless", Ilkidarios, remember one bright lady said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."  (Eleanor Roosevelt).  In my own roleplaying experiences everyone starts at that bottom rung and working your way up to prominence is part of the "fun" (as well as dying repeatedly and occasionally cursing the gods for stupid restrictions on player killing).

Finally, to the Logos...
Your reputation preceeds you and I admit I've got to give credence to your suggestion about a reward system.  I think what you're suggesting about "roleplaying interaction and activities where non-roleplayers won't have fun" (paraphrase) would work assuming the player in question was of some prominence.  

From what I've personally experienced, to really work over change, or activate NPC's, you're talking more along the lines of a divine or administrative role.  While I agree gods/admins play a HUGE  part in the direction of where a land heads, the majority still falls on the side of the common man, so...I *think* chances fall on our side of success for making a difference despite admins.  

Any continued ideas are most welcome...thank you all for the prompt and informative replies and excuse my ramblings!
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Aug. 11 2005,19:17)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Daedroth @ Aug. 11 2005,17:40)
Sorry for all the targetting IRE games, you guys. But im gonna talk a little about their rp problem. YOU HAVE TO HACK N SLASH FOR A YEAR BEFORE ANYTHING YOU DO MATTERS. Most, not all, but most players will ignore any ideas or comments made by the average character. The PCs who are strong, buffed up guys/girls who run guilds or cities (or advisors to such characters) are the only ones that really make a difference on anything in the world or society. In other words, any rp you do is worth about as much as a rag covered in snot.

Here are some basic guidelines you must meet in order to make a difference in most RPE games.

a) Played for a very long time, reached high up position in guild/city or godliness. (applies to builder, administrator and the people who monitor the game)

b) Know a very high up character/immortal or several of these. (they can back up your rp and MAKE what you say or do important)
Yes, to have a big impact on the world, you have to stand out from the other players in some way. You can't just log in and be taken seriously any more than you would be taken seriously by voters if you just randomly ran for office, for instance. You have to do something that other players are going to respect or admire for whatever reason first.

What that has to do with encouraging RP though, I don't know. Roleplaying exists in everything from great achievements to flirting with another character in a tavern. Roleplaying saving a kingdom or roleplaying a castle maid are equally valid as roleplaying. One may be less exciting than the other, but excitement is also not limited to roleplaying.

Perhaps instead of attacking popular games that you happen to not like, we could actually have a discussion on encouraging roleplaying?

--matt
So, IRE games are "popular" now, are they? Maybe you should follow your own advice, and talk about RPE muds instead of trying to sneak in gloating messages about your "success".

I dont see how my statement wasnt about RPE muds. Unless im mistaken, your games are RPE. My point was, that players arent going to rp if it means absolutely nothing to anyone. So im suggesting thought on a way to make it somewhat better to rp in such cases, a way to make your rp maybe worth a little more than useless text that no one cares about.
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:55 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by (Ilkidarios @ Aug. 11 2005,18:58)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Daedroth @ Aug. 11 2005,17:40)
b) Know a very high up character/immortal or several of these. (they can back up your rp and MAKE what you say or do important)
I don't think this would be true.  I may know Matt here, but he probably wouldn't give jack squat about "Tithesus the Garbage-Digger" in Achaea.
Sorry about the two posts in a row, but...

What I mean on that part, is that if tithesus a lowly garbage-digger was real life friends, or even over-the-internet friends, with an immortal or king of a city, tithesus would have a powerful voice backed up by a king, and would likely advance beyond garbage digger faster than say Urelthin, who knows no one who plays the mud. See what i mean now?
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:51 PM   #40
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I have to agree on this. Its precisely why I have avoided RPI, etc. types. If you are not in some fashion in the 'in crowd', you won't advance, you won't be noticed and you won't become one of that crowd unless you play in a way that doesn't fit your style in the first place. At least with H&S, I know that if I played 4 hours a day for a week, I could get more powers, even if it means repeatedly killing the same things over and over. In an RPI, its may be all just words. Unless I posted logs of everything I ever did on a web site, most of everything I did do would mean jack. Anything 'real' that became part of the game, like eq would be even more useless than the stuff I can afford to buy or get off mobs in a H&S, etc. If I wanted to write everything I do for no reward, I could write a rather poor book and spend months trying to get someone to publish it. And unlike the game, I might get lucky, have it published and make enough to by a bloody XBOX. lol

Point is, reward in the strictest ones comes from meeting 'other' people's expectations, the middle ground ones let you advance in spite of other people, but seem, from what I have seen people describe, to be scitzophrenic about how much and in what way. H&S is at least consistent, if on some levels boring. Seems, for now you can't win, no matter what you would prefer.
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