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Old 09-11-2003, 11:42 PM   #21
Delerak
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I thought I was stating that as common sense already Eagleon, thank you for clarifying to those here who didn't realize I meant comparison from when America was founded and not the entire history of Europe! Haha. That actually made me laugh. I am majoring in history and of course Europe has more blood spilt in all. But since 1776, Europes wars compared to America's are nothing, #### Britain gave up. Threshold take a look at that timeline of yours and compare each war from when america was founded (one country) to all of the wars in Europe. You will notice that America's were far bloodier and far stupider. At least the countries in Europe were fighting to further their own territory, america claims to fight for freedom, and equality or something like that, I don't even know why we wen't to Iraw now, hah, I won't even go into the politics, I hate politics. Nice of the_logos and Threshhold to educate us though, they seem to be packed full of knowledge.

-Delerak
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:45 PM   #22
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Even though I am american born I have to agree with that entire post, and I am paranoid and I bet it will go back to the new deal.
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Old 09-12-2003, 01:35 AM   #23
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Old 09-12-2003, 03:25 AM   #24
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Old 09-12-2003, 03:27 AM   #25
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So then, if territorial ambition is not a stupid reason for war in your opinion (one of the stupidest and most juvenile reasons in mine) where is all this blood that's been spilled on American soil since its founding for stupid reasons? Do you think the Civil War was stupid? Cause that's the only significant bloodletting caused by war that's happened on American soil since it was founded.

Americas wars were -not- bloodier, by a long shot. About half a million people died in the Civil War. (Of course, if you don't think a war about territorial ambition is stupid then it's hard to call this a stupid war given that the war was all about maintaining the territory of the US.)

- A few tens of thousand people died in the Mexican war.
- Less than 10,000 died in the War of 1812 and the Spanish American War.
- Many natives died, but 95% of that was by disease, most of which was completely unrelated to war and related simply to the presence of Europeans (go read Jared Diamond's Putlizer-winning Guns, Germs, and Steel for a fantastic discussion that includes an extensive look at this sort of thing.)

Of course, these wars were about territorial ambition which, by your (silly) definition is a good reason for war.

So where are all these deaths caused by 'silly' wars on American soil? America doesn't know what suffering is compared to Europe and that's true regardless of what historical period you choose.

6 million Jews died in WWII for VERY silly reasons that had nothing to do with territorial ambitions. That's more than Americans have -ever- lost in all wars combined, on or off American soil, "silly" or not.

And those 6 million Jews pale in comparison to the 50 MILLION that died in total in WWII. Don't want to talk about World War II? Ok, let's talk about the between 20 and 40 million+ Russians slaughtered by their own government between 1924 and 1953. (There's no consensus number there. Some historians, like Rummel, says it's as high as 61 million, while others, like Wallechinsky say it's around 20 million.) Don't like that? Ok, let's talk about the approximately 15-25 million that died in WWI.

Give me a break Delerak. You should demand a refund on your education because they're not teaching you anything. I have a LOT of problems with America, but that doesn't change facts.
--matt
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Old 09-12-2003, 12:30 PM   #26
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Do you think this is a good excuse for the US government to take away rights granted to its people in the Bill of Rights?? Have you even looked at the so-called Patriot Act?

Typically Liberals advocate better social services for the general populace at the expense of higher taxes. Conservatives typically advocate lower taxes at the expense of social services. So, now that we've cut taxes in a huge way, and also increased our military spending in a huge way, that obviously leaves much less money for our schools. And you say this is on the liberal agenda? Under Bush? Are you crazy?

One day of military operations in Iraq could pay for the entirety of the education budget cuts.

I rest my case...

Good, because the #### thing is bloated! Here are some numbers:

Current Military, $459B:Military Personnel $99B, Operation and Maintenance $133B, Procurement $68B, Research and Development $58B, Construction $6B, Family Housing $4B, Retired Pay $39B, DoE Nuclear Weapons $16B, 50% NASA $8B, International Security $7B, 60% Homeland Security $16B, misc. $5B Note: President Bush does not include any funds for the war on terrorism or the war on Iraq in this budget, which he expects to request later as supplemental funding.

Past Military, $345B: Veterans’ Benefits $63B; Interest on National Debt (80% estimated to be created by military spending) $282B

Human Resources, $593B: Education, Health/Human Services, HUD, Food/Nutrition programs, Labor Department, Soc. Sec. Admin.

General Government, $235B: Legislative, Justice Dept., State Dept., International Affairs, Treasury, Gov’t. Personnel, 20% interest on national debt, 50% of NASA, 20% Homeland Security

Physical Resources, $99B: Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Interior Dept., Transportation, Environmental Protection, Army Corps Engineers, NSF, FCC, 20% Homeland Security

Source:

- Ryan
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Old 09-12-2003, 08:33 PM   #27
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I see we're going to numbers now. And I am not necessarily speaking the wars only held in american lands. Any war america has participated in has been horrific. Compared to Europes. And Lanthum, Europe is a continent not a country. I am comparing every country in Europe from the 1700s to America up to today, America has definitely had more wars, and spilled more blood. And a dictator killng his own people (stalin) doesn't necessarily count. I am talking full-fledged wars here Logos, waged on other countries. Germany and France for example. America and Mexico, America and Vietnam. America has killed more in war than those other countries, and here are some numbers.

America's Wars Total
Military service during war 42,348,460
Battle deaths 651,008
Other deaths in service (theater)13,998
Other deaths in service (nontheater)525,256
Nonmortal woundings 1,431,290
Living war veterans 17,578,5003
Living veterans 25,038,459

And I'm not talking civilian casualties, just soldiers. Hitler killed the Jews for his belief, which started the war, his army was shredded by america, as was Japans, which can be included, how many died because of the bombs?

Hiroshima Nagasaki
Dead Dead
70,000 20,000
Wounded Wounded
130,000 50,000

.. 90% of Those wounded died within months from radiation poisoning. I think the estimate of deaths from America can't even be calculated, I would guess over 20 million, no telling though, all in the name of freedom and equality. Sure, and now in 2003 we aren't even sure if we have it. Let's go kill some more and call it War of Terror.

-Delerak
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Old 09-12-2003, 08:58 PM   #28
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I would agree that America™ has been the most ruthlessly aggressive state in the past 50 years... but trying to prove so by comparing our history to Europes is not a particularly useful way to do so. Europe also has a bloody legacy that is thousands of years old, and don't forget that America inherited its aspirations of domination from the old continent.

This new war on terror is just the same old stuff in new packaging. Remember the cold war? Its all about establishing the rest of the world as Americas™ service sector, in the disguise of democracy and freedom. Democracy for those who agree with us, and freedom for those who can afford it.
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Old 09-12-2003, 10:43 PM   #29
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I don't know where you seem to have been living these past 50 years, but apparently it wasn't on earth. This past war in Iraq was the first war of aggression waged by the US. That's right. A big fat 1. Korea, Vietnam, and the first gulf war were all triggered by expansion of a foreign power. Maybe you would have preferred that the US allow unchecked Russian expansion? Wondering if it would have been fun living under Mao during the "great leap forward"?

Re: Delerak: Compare both Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the Russian capture of Berlin during WWII, in which they lost 300,000 soldiers. Half the total battle deaths of the US in a single battle. The total German military and civilian casualties are unknown to this day.

Or perhaps you'd like to take a gander at the figures for civilian casualties during the German offensive into Russia?

I don't like the current US administration's policies, but the level of historical revisionism that's taking place here is absolutely disgusting.
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Old 09-12-2003, 11:21 PM   #30
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You were likely not taught about the wars that we didn't send troops to, but instead created foreign militias under ruthless men who would be sympathetic to our commercial interest, or just funded the war with weapons and money.
Here's an incomplete list: Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Angola, Panama.

Do the research, its pretty scary.

And thats not even counting all the popular revolutions against oppresive dictators that we squashed in the name of "national security". Vietnam falls under that category. The threat they posed to us is as laughable as the "threat" Iraq posed.

- Ryan
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Old 09-12-2003, 11:30 PM   #31
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Old 09-12-2003, 11:42 PM   #32
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The United States of America is not perfect. But its less imperfect than anywhere in this great big world.

Love it or loathe it, but thats a fact.


-VT, Proud to be an infidel.
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Old 09-13-2003, 12:12 AM   #33
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Out of respect for Snoozer and his staff..I've posted my reply over in


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Old 09-13-2003, 12:56 AM   #34
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To the flames thread then!

Delerak trots away from this thread.
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Old 09-13-2003, 02:13 PM   #35
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Delerak wrote: Delerak wrote:
So now you've gone from comparing the blood spilt for 'stupid beliefs' in Europe and the US to the blood spilt anywhere in the world by America since 1776 with the blood spilt by any single European country since 1776. Nice little series of revisions you've made there, subsequent to being demonstrated as clueless over and over.

Fine. Germany and Russia. Both have spilled WAY more since 1776 than America ever has. How many times do people have to say this to you: 10s of millions killed by Germany alone in WWII. 20-60 million killed by Stalin.

The US doesn't even come close, and frankly, putting the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and don't forget Tokyo in which American B52s killed almost as many people with conventional bombs) in the same category as Hitler's aggression is just dumb. Hitler's war was pure, naked aggression. The American attack on Japan happened only after Japan attacked America with no good reason.

Intellectual dishonesty to support your political position is just sad. America sucks in many, many ways. But there can be no doubt that the blood spilled in America (which was your original argument despite your attempts to wriggle out of it) pales in comparison to Europe, which was essentially one big battleground for 2000 years, and that the blood spilled by America since 1776 pales in comparison to both Europe as a whole and some individual European countries.

--matt
(I chose not to move my post because Tavern of the Blue Hand is explicitly for discussion of whatever you want. )
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Old 09-13-2003, 02:32 PM   #36
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Old 09-13-2003, 02:43 PM   #37
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Yes, my apologies. They were described as darkening the sky over Tokyo so many of them were employed on the bombing runs. Almost as scary as a A-bomb in those kinds of numbers.

--matt
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Old 09-13-2003, 02:59 PM   #38
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So just because America is a young country it is forgiven for all the murders it commited in Vietnam, and all the other wars it's had. Take a look at Germanys history. They never had wars that America has had, aside from the world wars, and Germany is a less-civilized country and much older. If anything the younger a country the less war it should wage, if you think just because America is young then it is okay for it to wage war for it's belief's then you are just a naive patriot.
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Old 09-13-2003, 03:49 PM   #39
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It seems they are seeking for the best intentions, but take a long look at this: If America continues getting involved in wars, no matter what your reason is (freedom, equality, justice, all those other words they use) then sooner or later, most likely later, America will fall like any other empire in the history of the world. Rome tried to do what America is doing, and it is in ruins. Alexander the Great and his father the king of Macedonia, both crumbled because of their wars. If you agree with america's wars then you are just another person who will go down with the country. It is inevitable if it continues.
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Old 09-13-2003, 03:51 PM   #40
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JilesDM, replying to (Delerak?):
Delerak has been excreting a huge amount of fertilizer into this thread, but the above shows a pretty ignorant view of history.

How about the Spanish-American war, and our other dealings in the Phillipines, just for starters? (Since there's such a blatant counterexample to your claim available, I won't for now argue about Vietnam or other recent conflicts)

Grenada was also not exactly storming our beaches when they were invaded by the US. And that's even before we start discussing the arguably non-invasion actions like overthrowing the pre-Shah government of Iran. Remember that if you dismiss an action like the US installation of the Shah as not an act of war, to be fair you'll then have to count the US invasion of Afganistan as an aggressive war on the US's part.

America has had a pretty respectable record in international affairs until recently (looking at both motives going in and how a defeated enemy is treated), but claiming that the record has been perfect is just as ignorant as Delerak's spew.

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