[Fizban]

Originally Posted by Aioki_Weyvern As was said earlier in the thread, people who bot & people who dont bot arent in the same competition. If you choose to run a 2k race in hobnail boots, and all your friends are also wearing hobnail boots & you're all going pretty much the same pace, then thats the Hobnail Boot 2k Race. Have fun. But if someone in the lane next to you is wearing athletic shoes, and passes you, and his friends are also wearing athletic shoes, and passing you, but they are keeping pretty even with each other, then dont worry about them. They may be on the same track as you, but they are running the Athletic Shoes 2k Race. If you are so jealous of their speed, put on some trainers. Just know that this is a different race.

I agree with this logic, except. The winner of the athletic shoe race gets a medal, you don't after winning the hobnail boot race because they beat you. You now have the scenario where I bot, I hit level 100 in 4 days and get a ton of eq, you don't bot, hit level 100 after 7 days you are now in my pkill range but equipped less than me because I spent the last 3 days getting eq. I then start pkilling you and looting you. At this point you 'are' competing with me and not simply alongside me.

[Fizban]

Originally Posted by Lasher Originally Posted by Zhiroc Personally, I've always felt that botting was the inevitable outcome of any game where the gameplay was so simplistic, the rewards so necessary, and the experience so boring that a person decides they'd rather not be bothered to play through that part. This is often one of the justifications for botting, but it rings pretty hollow to me. It always sounded like an excuse for bad behavior from someone who knows deep down it is bad. I'm not saying that's how you are using it, I'm just saying I've heard that argument many times before and it always left me with that feeling.

And that to me sounds like the excuse of an administrator too insecure to admit that the reason their players find the need to bot could be due to a flaw with their game.

Originally Posted by Lasher Keep in mind that botting rarely has anything to do with how fun a game is.

Once again, read above, though I'm sure it won't matter, when your players bot you'll keep telling yourself it has nothing to do with the fact that some part of your game is likely tedious and boring.

[Mabus]

Originally Posted by Fizban And that to me sounds like the excuse of an administrator too insecure to admit that the reason their players find the need to bot could be due to a flaw with their game. Once again, read above, though I'm sure it won't matter, when your players bot you'll keep telling yourself it has nothing to do with the fact that some part of your game is likely tedious and boring.

This is all just "to much coffee, and not enough sleep" talk from me, but here is my opinion on that:

"Tedious and boring" are highly subjective. I may find combat interesting, while another person might consider it a "grind". You may enjoy doing a series of complex quests, while another person will have a friend do them and send him a script that does them with little to no inpuit from them but starting the script.

I have never played a telnet-client text-based game that could not be scripted/botted. Never.

To me it is a means of gaining something without spending the time doing it. I can understand on highly repetitive tasks setting up macros, or scripts. Pushing one button instead of typing things over and over is certainly easier, and less prone to typing errors. I have used scripts and triggers on games before, but never while afk. I have never botted, but have helped people script a few bots in the past.

We could say the game is flawed, or could look for players looking for gain with minimal effort. Both may have a partial impact. What is a game's "flaw"? Each individual would a different opinion on that issue, as would each designer. If a game gave a player everything they wanted without any time or effort botting would be a lot less of an issue, but those games would also likely be deserted.

For reward to have its fullest positive impact there must be risk, investment (time or otherwise) and/or means of measuring it against others.

Some play-systems in MUDs will take time. Some will be repetitive. Some will require speed. Some will require accuracy. As long as any of those conditions exist some players will use triggers, scripts and bots. Even proprietary clients would be hacked and the capability added, if enough players played the game. I have seen it.

The best that can be done (in my opinion) is to have a clear, public, consistent policy on these issues, and their use (or inability to use), for each individual game, and for the staff of these games to stand by the policies.

[Fizban]

Originally Posted by Mabus I have never played a telnet-client text-based game that could not be scripted/botted. Never.

I agree. I wasn't intending to assert that if players can bot on your game then it is due to a flaw with your game. I was asserting that if players choose to bot that it may be due to a design flaw in your game. Any game can be botted, text-based or not, there has never been a single game created that can't be botted, some are just hard to make bots for than others, often-times to the point that making the bot would require more time and effort than playing the game the 'right way'.