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Old 08-28-2007, 12:58 AM   #161
cratylus
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Welp, I made another post that was not only amusing but
illustrated what I thought of the silliness of this position of
yours, but it got deleted. Alas, all I can do is indicate that
I think your position is silly but without the humor.

Oh well.

In any case, I continue to think this is a good idea:

And I think I've amply illustrated that "free" is simply
not sufficiently descriptive. I keep seeing a bunch of verbiage
about things that are not muds and how "free" is defined by
this group or that group, but I think that muds are a very
specific context in which licenses often spell out things
that inform the use of the word "free" with muds.

It is reasonable to expect people of good intention will differ on what
"free mud" means, as we have seen in this very thread, and that alone
is pretty good reason to want things to be more specific.

-Crat
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:24 AM   #162
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Oh boy. I was really trying to stay away from this argument, but it has finally gotten to it.

When is free not free?

I will try to keep this simple. In the IRE games, the only way you can level your skills is by using lessons. You get 5 lessons per character level. The rest must come from credits. If you level to 70, you will end up getting 100 free credits. This is only enough to only take 1 skill from level 1 to the next to last level (Mythical). The rest (7 other skills plus 7 mini-skills) must come from credits you must obtain through:
The ingenious part of the payment model is that once you start using credits over those you get by leveling, for the most part, either you or someone else has bought them! So in the large sense, even if you grind out the gold (and consider that your own time has no monetary value), they are still credits bought by someone.

The only aspect of "free" in the aggregate is whatever credits that IRE injects over and above their normal sales price. For example, at the moment there is a 30% sale on for the anniversary (a very generous sale, actually). And there are monthly contests called artisanals, and occasional bardics. And a lottery going on at the moment (but that costs gold per ticket).

So, can you play for free?

Maybe if you win your way to credits.

But by buying credits from another with in-game gold, it's like saying I'll buy you a ticket to the movies if you'll mow my lawn. Sure, you didn't pay the theater anything, and you paid me only an hour or two of your time, but the theater got its money anyways.

Is this free?

Not in my book. The difference between this model and all the other ones about "premium" services is that when you go to ESPN, or the Smithsonian, or even a pure pay-for-perks system, you are not paying any consideration to anyone else for using them. In the IRE system, unless you can outright win your "free" credits, you must pay another user something for the privilege, even if it is in the form of play time that you have worked at to build up in-game gold.

And that makes it not free.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:39 AM   #163
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

There are sort of two points embedded in that statement.

The first is that you apparently think that free doesn't have to do with whether something is free to someone but with whether a company gains revenue. That's got nothing to do with free. Broadcast television is free regardless of the fact that the networks generate billions in revenue.

The second is that you seem to feel that if you have to expend effort and time, it's somehow impinges on the state of 'free.' In that case, there's no such thing as a free MUD since I'm not aware of any MUD that doesn't require your effort and time to get ahead.

Having to work to build up an in-game resource makes you not free? Again, in that case, there are no free MUDs.

--matt
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:49 AM   #164
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Zhiroc,

You are being completely unfair to IRE games. They offer their mud to be playable for free. I've been there and seen it. If you want to have extras or support the game you can pay as well which assists their creators and staff to keep the games up to par for what the players expect.

This is very close to the same for all the commercial "style" games.

Why are so many so angry about this? You don't HAVE to play the games. The players that play them LIKE them. Why are we jealous or angry about this? Why is everyone wanting to tear down the commercial games for their definition of FREE. Do you honestly think they are swindling people or trying to "trick" people into playing their game? Do you honestly think people who go there are stupid enough to stay if they think they've been cheated.

I don't.

And so you don't think I'm backing the Commercial games because NW is one. I'm not and NW is not. NW would click the box Completely FREE no donations or registrations or whatever accepted. But I can't stand this constant beating up of well run, fun muds, being hounded because of the word FREE.

Every one of the Muds that posted here that are commercial and have the word free to play in them ARE free to play. Stop this nonsense.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:51 AM   #165
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

I'm not sure what was difficult to understand about Zhiroc's post. I
undertood it the first time around without incorrectly assuming he
meant that effort == not free.

Zhiroc's post describes a situation that involves some player
paying the mud real world money for in game benefit.

The payment system is clever and sophisticated enough that
it lets you describe what happens in many ways. But it
seems disingenuous to suggest that Zhiroc meant that effort
in the game is the same as the game not being free.

If he didn't describe your payment system to your satisfaction,
then perhaps you can simply clarify it, rather than mock Zhiroc.

-Crat
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:53 AM   #166
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Like I said the IRE system is rather ingenious.

What makes it not free is not that I have to buy something from another player. As you say, every game has an economy. (Edit: I take that back. Most MUDs have an economy. I play MUSHes these days, and most of those have no economy.)

It's that this specific purchase (of credits) is an indirect chain from me to the other player, and then to your company. You make the same amount of money (well, disregarding volume discounts perhaps) if 2 players buy the credits from you, or 1 buys them, and I play for "free" by buying the credits from them with time and effort. It's like a sublease.

Broadcast television is free because I don't have to give a consideration to those entities (the advertisers who fund the stations) in order to watch. But in the IRE games, I must either pay IRE, or give a consideration of in-game gold to another player to advance.
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:07 AM   #167
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

I state my reasons for why I think it is not free. You are free to disagree.

Why? I guess because I do have a principle about calling something free. Others here are just as principled about say, licenses, and go on about that even if many of the worst offenders have players that really like the game.

Or about those that may abuse voting rules.

I guess we all pick our windmills.

Now, about all other "commercial" games, I have come to appreciate the straightforward approach of most of the MMOGs. You buy the box, you pay a set subscription. Predictability and transparency. Those are the watchwords in most economic analyses.
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:59 AM   #168
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

If I had wanted to be dismissive I'd have written "IRE's little scam". In Dutch little is often used to indicate the core element of something, which in this case would indeed be the virtual asset sales model rather than your company being little, I reckon this isn't the case in English which has a greater emphasis on politeness?

Asians don't use the European big mother model, so big European companies are likely wary to adopt it to avoid damaging their reputation. Back in the days even charging interest was frowned down upon, which is why Jews went into banking because their religious doctrine didn't forbid the practice.

It's rather obvious that most, if not all, of the objection to the business model is cultural in origin. This however doesn't prove the attitude to be good or false. The only objective issue I can see is that IRE advertises itself as free, which could be considered dishonest, and happens to be what this thread is about.
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:25 AM   #169
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Correct. Just like you don't have to give consideration to Iron Realms to play our games. Just like almost nobody in Korea has to give consideration to Nexon and the other games companies to play their games.

Broadcast television, incidentally, is free only as long as consumers give money to the makers of the products and services advertised on tv. It doesn't make it less free that it is 100% dependent on consumers spending money.

Or win the regular monthly and more contests that we hold. And, of course, if you're suggesting that having to expend in-game gold to achieve something makes a MUD free then any MUD that requires someone to spend an in-game currency on anything at all is not free. I find that to be an insupportable notion.

--matt
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:24 AM   #170
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Well it seems the arguments are still hung up on the definition of "free". Fortunately Lasher's proposal avoids the word completely:

This could be combined with Lasher's second proposal - including a text area.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has objected to both of the above proposals, therefore combining the two seems to be the best compromise.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:27 AM   #171
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

[Snipped by moderator. Please refrain from accusing other forum members of something without evidence.]

Fair play is something that some of us care deeply for, however hard this might be for others to understand.

But, since I suspect that this side tangent, just as the one about 'hobbyists' has as its main purpose to muddy the waters and lead the attention away from the main topic of this thread - (which, in case anyone forgot, is to find a way to separate Muds that accept/not accept payment in the search engine) - I think maybe it's time to start a new thread titled 'What does "fair" men?'.

I'll hold my other thoughts about fairness and fair play for that one.

Last edited by the_logos : 08-29-2007 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:06 AM   #172
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Maybe I haven't actually said it, so yes, I would like this, and a text box to explain is a good addition as well.

If not that, the single choice as to whether the game accepts payment / donations or not, plus the text box.

And as for the rest, I've laid out my opinion, and my reasoning for it, and will try really hard to leave it at that.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:27 AM   #173
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Uh.... no. I didn't skim it. I wasn't addressing the fairness of it. Strictly the definition of free. You're the one trying to add stuff to my argument I'm not putting in there.

Exactly right. The sale of souvenirs is unrelated to the museum being free. Why you aren't understanding this is somewhat of a mystery to me. Don't feel sorry for me. I don't need your pity. Just try to understand. The dinosaur figurine has nothing to do with the museum being free. Selling a t-shirt with my MUD's logo on it has nothing to do with my MUD being free. Got it?

You've just effectively argued then that the museum is pay-to-unlock-levels and thus is no longer 100% free since people with money now get additional access which those without money cannot. It's not an issue of fairness one way or the other. I could care less. But it's no longer 100% free by any stretch.

Actually I think if you ask any rational average person what the word "free" means, they'll tell you simply that it doesn't cost anything. And many of these rational beings don't fall for the "buy 1 get 1 free" scam either. You simply bought two at a 50% discount for each one.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:45 AM   #174
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

The only "fair" system for gauging the MULTITUDE of payment systems for the muds out there is to have one box to be clicked if they accept NO money of any kind. Once there's money involved, people can do their own research as to whether or not they like the payment system. Again, players aren't stupid. They only need to know whether there is outside money involved in this MUD or not. Again, it's very easy to police and very easy to report. I'm really only for the

[ ] This game accepts no monetary donations whatsoever

option. Anything else is semantics. You can play most of the play-for-perks MUDs without ever paying. It may be harder. It may involve more time investment, but there are people who have way more time than money. On the other hand, unless you are selling t-shirts via a total third party and never know the name of the people involved in purchasing your products, you cannot guarantee that it does not affect your adminning knowing that player X has bought 10 t-shirts to support the game while player Y has bought nothing. You can believe you're fair, but there's absolutely no guarantee of it as soon as you know who has bought what. Plus, this is simply impossible to police.

The only thing that can be easily policed is a designation that a game accepts no money whatsoever, and it's the most useful designation. Once a game starts taking money in any way, it's up to the player to find out how it's done and what the results are for paying.

TMS should NOT be expected to be some "babysitter" for MUDs. It's there to be a useful resource and facilitate players finding MUDs suitable for them. Does this MUD take money or no? It's an easy question to answer. It's an easy thing for players to search for. The end.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:09 PM   #175
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

I don't agree with this.

There is a long tradition in many muds of accepting donations
of ram, server space, bandwidth, and/or money for running
the mud, with no reward whatsoever for the individual donor
other than sharing in the improved mud.

There is a vast gulf between that and getting access to a
map system, or a sword, or gold in the game in exchange
for the donation.

The two are simple to distinguish in a checkbox, and I think
that it is fair to do so. Lumping both types of muds into the
same payment category is what I would consider unfair.

However, I don't think fairness is the point. I think that
clarity is the point. And, as keeps getting reiterated, the
tangents of "professional" or "fair" or "free" are just
the things that obscure what people want:

a clear, straightforward description of the mud's
relationship with your money:

-Crat
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:38 PM   #176
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Question Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Crat, how severely damaged do you feel your model is by this extension?

( ) Payment required to play
( ) Payment / donations accepted, not rewarded in-game
( ) Payment / donations accepted, rewarded in-game; all rewards also available without payment / donation
( ) Payment / donations accepted, rewarded in-game; a few rewards only available by payment / donation
( ) Payment / donations accepted, rewarded in-game; most or all rewards only available by payment / donation
( ) No Payment / donations accepted

I think this is important, because I don't feel it's fair to IRE or other games where you can seriously play without paying to lump them in with "oh, you want to advance to level 2? have to subscribe now" games, and by doing said lumping, we're saying to them that they might as well just callously use their free play as a bait-and-switch marketing vehicle, because the community doesn't see a distinction.

Looking forward, I'd like for myself to be able to pick a position in the pay-for-perks space and have some ethics involved and recognized, rather than being categorized and -- you know it's true -- dismissed along with some of the lamest vile-marketing-exercise games extant.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:46 PM   #177
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

I prefer this too as it's simply more relevant information. However, I'm not sure whether we can productively distinguish between "a few" and "most or all". Distinguishing between "you can get everything for free" or "you have to pay for at least some things" is fairly easy but how would you quantify "a few" vs "most or all" in a meaningful way? (There's a big difference between having to pay for Nodeka's map option and having to pay to, say, level up.)

--matt
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:03 PM   #178
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

You guys are still muddying the waters with GREY area boxes that are subjective. You will eventually boil it down to what I've been saying all along and now I will also modify my suggestion to a variation on Mina's as well which is the same type of single box just marking whether you do not accept money vs. you are a commercially viable game.

To it:

[ ] This mud has some donation, registration, and/or payment features.
<Text box with Description and Payment features.>

OR Mina's suggestion (slightly modified):

[ ] This mud does not accept money (donations/registrations/credits) in any form.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:07 PM   #179
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Unhappy Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Some of the difficulty there is that we're addressing another axis of variation -- whether it's possible to have as complete a game experience without paying. For instance, if there's only one perk you have to pay for, and that's leveling, that technically falls under "a few", but, y'know, what the ****?

The litmus test in this area would probably be whether the character of a non-paying player can theoretically equal, given enough playing time or RP contribution or whatever, the character of a paying player. My understanding from people's explanations is that that would be a tough one for IRE. Justifying saying "yes" in terms of someone else paying and credits winding up transferred to the non-paying player... that's kinda weak.

Not real easy to check on, that one. If you have to pay to level, that's easy to see, but more subtle issues would pretty much be on the usual combination of the honor system and the public pillory system.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:10 PM   #180
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Re: What does "Free" Mean?

Tradition doesn't really matter here does it? It doesn't really matter has been traditionally accepted as far as money exchange goes. You're just arguing semantics here, especially when you get into "money for running the mud".

Either your mud accepts money, or it doesn't. Otherwise, we'll sit here arguing about HOW that money is accepted until the internet dies.

Yeah, the big difference is that you see exactly what you get for your money rather than a nebulous "Well, player X donated $200 and player Y donated $1, yet they both want their problems dealt with immediately.... Which one is the admin going to pick to deal with first?" I'm not saying that this is what YOU do specifically, but you can't seriously convince me that this wouldn't be a factor SOMEWHERE if there's an exchange of money.

Unless we want to keep arguing about what's REALLY free, the only way to be sure is to have [ ] Yes, we accept money or [ ] No, we accept no money.

Again, I will state that once players know that money can be exchanged, it's up to them to find out how. It's all semantics otherwise.

It's pretty obvious that "free" is not as clearly defined as people want to make it out to be, or we wouldn't be arguing it. As it is, we've already dumped the word "free". Thus, the best solution is simply to figure out whether or not the mud accepts money in any form because this is what players need to know.

Last edited by Milawe : 08-28-2007 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Left out a parapagh and fixed some typos
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