Tavern of the Blue Hand

Samson · 08-04-2002, 04:35 AM

Ugh. Much frustration. Mandrake 9.0b2 failed to install, same reason apparently. Even though the brief kernel message spam indicated it DID see the controller, even identified it by name. But hey, it's betaware. So we shall see if the 8.2 install disk has the same problem.

And holy God. Why does the Redhat site take so LONG to download stuff! ARGH!

Robbert · 08-04-2002, 10:58 AM

What's happening, when you say "failed to install" ? Is it getting everything done and failing on bootup? Or is it hanging at a particular install screen?

Mandrake (and, in fact, Slackware !!!) has three levels of install open to the user: text interface, ANSI graphics (like the old DOS shells) and full graphic. Lemme know where it's hanging, and I can probably talk you through that part of it.

All distros should include RAID support as part of their kernel. Is your RAID card flash-upgradable, and if so have you done the latest upgrade?

In all of the distro's, there is a problem with the LILO boot loader configurator if you have a dual- or multi-boot system. If, when you reboot, you get "LI" on the screen and then it hangs,t his is because LILO has set itself up wrong. This is a known problem and supposed to be fixed in the next distribution(s). I can talk you through what is necessary to circumvent this if this is the problem.

I did some research on NTFS systems, and understand now why you would have the three partitions. I'm not certain, but you may be able to mount that partition through samba services; the documentation isn't clear on whether you can do a local load of it as well as a remote.

When you say three partitions, are you also setting up a fourth as a linux swap partition?

08-04-2002, 12:14 PM

The question is though, WHY would Mr. Average even bother with Linux atm? Linux is more an operating systems for power users or those who hate Microsoft with a passion. Linux for desktop is not that good at best, pretty much compareable to the level of MS Windows 3.1 at the time. Does it have a future as desktop? I don't know and that's a whole different subject. Fact is, Mr Average shouldn't be messing around with installing OSes at all, considering my Win2k install gave me far more troubles then my Linux Slackware 8.1 install. (in which I'm currently using Mozilla to browse the net and later on to do a NFS install of Slackware to my server that doesn't have a CDROM drive)

Anyways, NTFS partitions are only mountable as read-only. NTFS network shares can be mounted using SmbFS though, and they work absolutely fine, both reading and writing. Bad thing is this only works with Windows-mounted and networked partitions, so you can't access your own HD through Linux with this...

Robbert · 08-04-2002, 01:15 PM

I disagree. Windows is nothing more than a gaming platform, if you look at it objectively. Koffice and Staroffice can replicate the inherent utility of MS Office, Mozilla 1.x offers more functionality than MSIE, GAIM 0.5x is more versatile than trillian or any other messaging system on Windows. X and KDE provide more features than any windows system ever did, once one learns the interface, and Gnome is much stabler and more customizable than windows. Enlightenment, FVWM and other window managers all mix customization seamlessly with their own metaphorical intefaces. XMMS provides the same features, with better resolution than winamp ever has, and XINE and the libdvdcss system allows for DVD playback at a better rate than windows software or hardware based solutions do.

Wine replicates the inherent utility of the windows DLL's, but is difficult for Joe Average to configure, and does not provide the same functionality as a true windows platform.

Programming in windows involves either using windows specific platforms or an inordinate amount of work to make the program function properly, and is not cross-platform testable. Programming in Linux is intuitive, native, and simple. Compilers for Fortran, C, C++, Java, GTK, and more are standard includes with all distributions.

Playing games in windows requires unique settings, special drivers, possibly specially configured boot options, and a plethora of other initialization settings.

Playing the available games in linux is simple, so long as you have an understanding of the way linux operates.

I have windows on one of the computers in my house. Win 98. It lasts about 4 days tops before it crashes, even with no activity on it.

The machine from which I'm writing this is my laptop, and has been online for 99 days. I have moved it from the house to my network at work, and restarted the network configuration there without rebooting. It has remained through two power outages, and still is running strong.

My wife's desktop has run for 8 days now, after losing power for longer than the UPS can hold the system up.

We use Linux for its inherent utility and stability.

When we want to play games, we use the windows machine.

When we want to do some serious work, we use linux. Because that's what it's made for.

08-04-2002, 02:42 PM

Well...

I have to admit, the latest programs that run on Linux are indeed a good step closer to the Desktop OS market for Mr. John Doe. Evolution beats Outlook and Outlook Express hands down. Mozilla makes IE redundant as a browser. KDE and Gnome have matured and grown into nicely looking desktops, however...

Like I said, the level of Linux on the desktop market is still compareable to Win3.1 or Win95 at best. There is still a command line interface underneath the GUI and CLIs are things that scares Mr. John Doe halfway into next week. It's time to get rid of the shell scripts and make a clear definition between Desktop Linux distros and Server Linux Distros.

What is needed is something like Windows, with X compiled into the kernel and optimized for speed. Add standard good programs that allows Mr. John Doe to do what he wants, like surf the net with Mozilla, write and read emails with Evolution and write up a pretty letter in OpenOffice. Mr Doe doesn't want the latest Apache HTTP server with mod_perl, PHP 4.3.0CVS, mod_auth_mysql and whipped cream on top of it. Nor would Mr Doe have a small armada of techinical buzzwords thrown at him. Hide Debian apt-get under a nice frontend and make it simple so users can download entire programs with a single mouseclick and have them installed.

But untill we clearly divide Linux Desktop distros and Linux Server distros, (Red Hat being very guilty here) Linux as a Desktop will FAIL repeatedly for Mr Average.

Samson · 08-04-2002, 08:28 PM

mhc · 08-10-2002, 01:20 PM

Robbert · 08-10-2002, 02:46 PM

If you boot your shiny new machine with a Linux distro disk - any distribution - and immediately cfdisk or fdisk your worthless windows OS from the drive, and install Linux, you can get the cost refund of the windows OS from the manufacturer.

To be eligible for the refund, you have to have never used the OS, which means it cannot have been booted up after you owned it.

I've heard that XP doesn't require rebooting after changing the IP information. What a concept....

Operating Systems - Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
MUD Combat systems	Hadoryu	Advanced MUD Concepts	156	08-21-2006 02:59 AM
Remort Systems	sallin	Advanced MUD Concepts	9	07-21-2006 01:38 PM
New Combat Systems	Derk	Advanced MUD Concepts	8	10-31-2003 10:52 AM
Death Systems	Crystal	MUD Administration	9	03-05-2003 11:00 AM
Weather systems	Ashon	Advanced MUD Concepts	16	09-26-2002 03:28 PM

08-02-2002, 06:56 AM	#1
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249

08-03-2002, 06:42 AM	#2
visko Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 98

08-03-2002, 11:49 AM	#3
Robbert Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: #### Paso, Tx Posts: 89

08-03-2002, 09:29 PM	#4
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249

08-04-2002, 04:35 AM	#5
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249	Ugh. Much frustration. Mandrake 9.0b2 failed to install, same reason apparently. Even though the brief kernel message spam indicated it DID see the controller, even identified it by name. But hey, it's betaware. So we shall see if the 8.2 install disk has the same problem. And holy God. Why does the Redhat site take so LONG to download stuff! ARGH!

08-04-2002, 10:58 AM	#6
Robbert Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: #### Paso, Tx Posts: 89	What's happening, when you say "failed to install" ? Is it getting everything done and failing on bootup? Or is it hanging at a particular install screen? Mandrake (and, in fact, Slackware !!!) has three levels of install open to the user: text interface, ANSI graphics (like the old DOS shells) and full graphic. Lemme know where it's hanging, and I can probably talk you through that part of it. All distros should include RAID support as part of their kernel. Is your RAID card flash-upgradable, and if so have you done the latest upgrade? In all of the distro's, there is a problem with the LILO boot loader configurator if you have a dual- or multi-boot system. If, when you reboot, you get "LI" on the screen and then it hangs,t his is because LILO has set itself up wrong. This is a known problem and supposed to be fixed in the next distribution(s). I can talk you through what is necessary to circumvent this if this is the problem. I did some research on NTFS systems, and understand now why you would have the three partitions. I'm not certain, but you may be able to mount that partition through samba services; the documentation isn't clear on whether you can do a local load of it as well as a remote. When you say three partitions, are you also setting up a fourth as a linux swap partition?

08-04-2002, 12:14 PM	#7
Ingham Posts: n/a	The question is though, WHY would Mr. Average even bother with Linux atm? Linux is more an operating systems for power users or those who hate Microsoft with a passion. Linux for desktop is not that good at best, pretty much compareable to the level of MS Windows 3.1 at the time. Does it have a future as desktop? I don't know and that's a whole different subject. Fact is, Mr Average shouldn't be messing around with installing OSes at all, considering my Win2k install gave me far more troubles then my Linux Slackware 8.1 install. (in which I'm currently using Mozilla to browse the net and later on to do a NFS install of Slackware to my server that doesn't have a CDROM drive) Anyways, NTFS partitions are only mountable as read-only. NTFS network shares can be mounted using SmbFS though, and they work absolutely fine, both reading and writing. Bad thing is this only works with Windows-mounted and networked partitions, so you can't access your own HD through Linux with this...

08-04-2002, 01:15 PM	#8
Robbert Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: #### Paso, Tx Posts: 89	I disagree. Windows is nothing more than a gaming platform, if you look at it objectively. Koffice and Staroffice can replicate the inherent utility of MS Office, Mozilla 1.x offers more functionality than MSIE, GAIM 0.5x is more versatile than trillian or any other messaging system on Windows. X and KDE provide more features than any windows system ever did, once one learns the interface, and Gnome is much stabler and more customizable than windows. Enlightenment, FVWM and other window managers all mix customization seamlessly with their own metaphorical intefaces. XMMS provides the same features, with better resolution than winamp ever has, and XINE and the libdvdcss system allows for DVD playback at a better rate than windows software or hardware based solutions do. Wine replicates the inherent utility of the windows DLL's, but is difficult for Joe Average to configure, and does not provide the same functionality as a true windows platform. Programming in windows involves either using windows specific platforms or an inordinate amount of work to make the program function properly, and is not cross-platform testable. Programming in Linux is intuitive, native, and simple. Compilers for Fortran, C, C++, Java, GTK, and more are standard includes with all distributions. Playing games in windows requires unique settings, special drivers, possibly specially configured boot options, and a plethora of other initialization settings. Playing the available games in linux is simple, so long as you have an understanding of the way linux operates. I have windows on one of the computers in my house. Win 98. It lasts about 4 days tops before it crashes, even with no activity on it. The machine from which I'm writing this is my laptop, and has been online for 99 days. I have moved it from the house to my network at work, and restarted the network configuration there without rebooting. It has remained through two power outages, and still is running strong. My wife's desktop has run for 8 days now, after losing power for longer than the UPS can hold the system up. We use Linux for its inherent utility and stability. When we want to play games, we use the windows machine. When we want to do some serious work, we use linux. Because that's what it's made for.

08-04-2002, 02:42 PM	#9
Ingham Posts: n/a	Well... I have to admit, the latest programs that run on Linux are indeed a good step closer to the Desktop OS market for Mr. John Doe. Evolution beats Outlook and Outlook Express hands down. Mozilla makes IE redundant as a browser. KDE and Gnome have matured and grown into nicely looking desktops, however... Like I said, the level of Linux on the desktop market is still compareable to Win3.1 or Win95 at best. There is still a command line interface underneath the GUI and CLIs are things that scares Mr. John Doe halfway into next week. It's time to get rid of the shell scripts and make a clear definition between Desktop Linux distros and Server Linux Distros. What is needed is something like Windows, with X compiled into the kernel and optimized for speed. Add standard good programs that allows Mr. John Doe to do what he wants, like surf the net with Mozilla, write and read emails with Evolution and write up a pretty letter in OpenOffice. Mr Doe doesn't want the latest Apache HTTP server with mod_perl, PHP 4.3.0CVS, mod_auth_mysql and whipped cream on top of it. Nor would Mr Doe have a small armada of techinical buzzwords thrown at him. Hide Debian apt-get under a nice frontend and make it simple so users can download entire programs with a single mouseclick and have them installed. But untill we clearly divide Linux Desktop distros and Linux Server distros, (Red Hat being very guilty here) Linux as a Desktop will FAIL repeatedly for Mr Average.

08-04-2002, 08:28 PM	#10
Samson Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Socialist States of America Home MUD: SmaugMuds.org Home MUD: Arthmoor MUD Hosting Posts: 249

08-10-2002, 01:20 PM	#11
mhc Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Linköping, Sweden Posts: 31

08-10-2002, 02:46 PM	#12
Robbert Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: #### Paso, Tx Posts: 89	If you boot your shiny new machine with a Linux distro disk - any distribution - and immediately cfdisk or fdisk your worthless windows OS from the drive, and install Linux, you can get the cost refund of the windows OS from the manufacturer. To be eligible for the refund, you have to have never used the OS, which means it cannot have been booted up after you owned it. I've heard that XP doesn't require rebooting after changing the IP information. What a concept....

Tavern of the Blue Hand

Operating Systems