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Ogma · 07-27-2003, 05:33 PM

Welcor, I think you misinterpreted what he said.

He said, 1500 hours play experience and another 500 hours as an apprentice before they become a full admin.
That's the equivalent of a year at 40 hours a week, but it is not required to do it all in a year. It can be 2 years at 20 hours a week, 4 years at 10 hours a week, etc. Do the math, there's no requirement to give up your life.

the_logos · 07-27-2003, 06:43 PM

I prefer the most competent people possible who also have the time to make themselves useful. You can extrapolate from that what you will.

What we value are the stakeholders of the mud. That includes the players, the employees, the volunteers, the investors, etc.

I'll tell you what though: While we're in the suite of rooms we we get every year in Vegas (or somewhere else nice) for the admins, you can stop by and ask them how the way we treat them compares to the way they've been treated on any other mud they've admin'd on.

--matt

the_logos · 07-27-2003, 06:45 PM

Thanks. Exactly. The best probably tend to be the people who take 2-3 years to do it. So that's like 15 hours a week, or a bit over 2 hours a day.

--matt

KaVir · 07-28-2003, 11:48 AM

How about instead asking them how they feel their compensation compares to that of all other 40-hour-per-week jobs?

Stilton · 07-28-2003, 01:18 PM

KaVir:
Aside from your continuation of the "40 hours/week solid" claim that Matt and others have already debunked:

Remember, these people started out playing a GAME in their leisure time. They were then offered the opportunity to take a leadership role within the game, a position that comes with responsibilities and perks. They accepted. Characterizing this relationship as exploitation of employees is laughable. Matt's got good legal counsel too- I'm sure he'd have looked into this during the AOL lawsuit.

How much will your GodWars II admins be paid? Nothing? :)

Stilton

welcor · 07-28-2003, 02:20 PM

I think this sounds - quite a bit - more reasonable, and stand corrected.

Estarra · 07-28-2003, 03:12 PM

Going back to the original question (amazing how off topic these discussions become), I'd recommend making enquiries to new MUDS for builder positions rather than established MUDs, who most likely first look to their player base. Try running a TMS search for games that are "hiring builders" and whose status is "not open" or "open for testing". Presumably, if they're still in development and hiring, they don't have a longstanding player base to draw from and are interested in building/expanding. Further, I'd recommend when you make an inquiry, you send an area idea and sample room descriptions. Finally, I'd steer away from asking for a nebulous "admin" position, which most likely will be interpretted as asking to be a god. MUDs are much more interested in creative builders and will reward hard workers that produce quality areas with admin/god positions.

KaVir · 07-29-2003, 03:29 PM

The point is that (1) Matt requires a huge amount of time investment from the staff (comparible to that of an employee), (2) doesn't pay them anything, and (3) makes a living (and from what he's said in the past, quite a good one) from running a successful commercial mud. But the part I really take exception to is the way he seems to think that his staff are getting a much better deal from it than those staff of other muds.

I place no requirements on the other admin (indeed some of them have yet to make any contributions), nor do I make any money from the mud itself.

I can understand you being angry at me for disproving your arguments on the other thread, but that's no excuse for making equally poor arguments and comparisons on this thread. Why not cut your losses, act like an adult, and treat each thread as a separate issue?

Stilton · 07-29-2003, 04:35 PM

From a staff members perspective, what they get for the amount of time they put in is probably much, much more than what they'd get from most free muds.

I see what you mean about the difference being Matt earning money from the enterprise, but if it doesn't bother the staff then it shouldn't bother you or I. If every involved party (players, staff, company) is happy with the arrangement , then who are we to complain? It's not like Achaea is some third-world sweatshop and staff is working for $0.10/hr 20 hrs per day because their families will starve otherwise. These are mostly well-educated people with plenty of leverage.

You haven't actually addressed the points Mason and I made in the other thread exept to point again and again at a single FAQ entry that's not quite applicable AND is obviously intended as a general guide for the general public rather than as a definitive reference, but let's keep that over there.

You've hurled cheap personal insults in both threads. I haven't.

I hope you didn't regard the Godwars II comment as a personal attack; I was pointing out that lots of time and get fun/satisfaction of contributing +neat vacation is arguably getting more for your effort than putting in lots of time and getting "just" the fun/satisfaction of contributing.

I haven't said that I feel your own reaction against helping someone else earn money with your mostly uncompensated effort is unreasonable. I'm just asking you to accept the idea that other people can reasonably disagree.

Choice of how we spend our free time is, after all, a question of opinion.

Stilton

Grey · 07-30-2003, 05:06 AM

I think if someone want to have very hardcore requirements for admin on their MUd then they are entitled to that. In response to the ORIGINAL reason the thread was made; you don't want to be an admin. If you do, do what we all did - wait awhile (EARN it).

macdaddy7 · 07-30-2003, 06:49 AM

Thank you Estarra, those are some good ideas. Now in response to Grey, I didn't post so people could tell me what to do, I asked a question and if you don't have an answer to my question, don't post at all.

KaVir · 07-30-2003, 12:14 PM

That's not the way discussion forums work. You are allowed to post, and other people are allowed to respond. If you don't want other people to reply to your posts in certain ways, then your only option is not to post.

macdaddy7 · 07-30-2003, 12:51 PM

I'm sure you wouldn't like people to tell you what to do. I don't mind him posting his opinion, but he was distinctly telling me what to do, and I don't have to take that if I don't want to.

Tavish · 07-30-2003, 01:39 PM

Now that thin-skinned and defensive are covered, all you need to do is demonstrate a hunger for power and you will fit the prototype for an immortal. Good luck!

Wik · 07-30-2003, 09:54 PM

But we haven't demonstrated exactly how he'll abuse that power yet. Maybe taunt him a little longer?

Grey · 07-31-2003, 08:23 AM

As an admin, you'll have to deal with a lot more than people's opinions. I don't think you know what you're getting yourself into really. Shortcuts are not the path to success. I apologize if my statement seemed out of place, but I think I have a good deal of experience on the matter. or at the very least, a bit more than you do at the moment.

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07-27-2003, 03:41 PM	#21
welcor Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aarhus, Denmark, Europe Posts: 59

07-27-2003, 05:33 PM	#22
Ogma Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: DartMUD Posts: 86	Welcor, I think you misinterpreted what he said. He said, 1500 hours play experience and another 500 hours as an apprentice before they become a full admin. That's the equivalent of a year at 40 hours a week, but it is not required to do it all in a year. It can be 2 years at 20 hours a week, 4 years at 10 hours a week, etc. Do the math, there's no requirement to give up your life.

07-27-2003, 06:43 PM	#23
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	I prefer the most competent people possible who also have the time to make themselves useful. You can extrapolate from that what you will. What we value are the stakeholders of the mud. That includes the players, the employees, the volunteers, the investors, etc. I'll tell you what though: While we're in the suite of rooms we we get every year in Vegas (or somewhere else nice) for the admins, you can stop by and ask them how the way we treat them compares to the way they've been treated on any other mud they've admin'd on. --matt

07-27-2003, 06:45 PM	#24
the_logos Legend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mill Valley, California Posts: 2,305	Thanks. Exactly. The best probably tend to be the people who take 2-3 years to do it. So that's like 15 hours a week, or a bit over 2 hours a day. --matt

07-28-2003, 11:48 AM	#25
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	How about instead asking them how they feel their compensation compares to that of all other 40-hour-per-week jobs?

07-28-2003, 01:18 PM	#26
Stilton Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 100	KaVir: Aside from your continuation of the "40 hours/week solid" claim that Matt and others have already debunked: Remember, these people started out playing a GAME in their leisure time. They were then offered the opportunity to take a leadership role within the game, a position that comes with responsibilities and perks. They accepted. Characterizing this relationship as exploitation of employees is laughable. Matt's got good legal counsel too- I'm sure he'd have looked into this during the AOL lawsuit. How much will your GodWars II admins be paid? Nothing? :) Stilton

07-28-2003, 02:20 PM	#27
welcor Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aarhus, Denmark, Europe Posts: 59	I think this sounds - quite a bit - more reasonable, and stand corrected.

07-28-2003, 03:12 PM	#28
Estarra Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Home MUD: Lusternia Posts: 191	Going back to the original question (amazing how off topic these discussions become), I'd recommend making enquiries to new MUDS for builder positions rather than established MUDs, who most likely first look to their player base. Try running a TMS search for games that are "hiring builders" and whose status is "not open" or "open for testing". Presumably, if they're still in development and hiring, they don't have a longstanding player base to draw from and are interested in building/expanding. Further, I'd recommend when you make an inquiry, you send an area idea and sample room descriptions. Finally, I'd steer away from asking for a nebulous "admin" position, which most likely will be interpretted as asking to be a god. MUDs are much more interested in creative builders and will reward hard workers that produce quality areas with admin/god positions.

07-29-2003, 03:29 PM	#29
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	The point is that (1) Matt requires a huge amount of time investment from the staff (comparible to that of an employee), (2) doesn't pay them anything, and (3) makes a living (and from what he's said in the past, quite a good one) from running a successful commercial mud. But the part I really take exception to is the way he seems to think that his staff are getting a much better deal from it than those staff of other muds. I place no requirements on the other admin (indeed some of them have yet to make any contributions), nor do I make any money from the mud itself. I can understand you being angry at me for disproving your arguments on the other thread, but that's no excuse for making equally poor arguments and comparisons on this thread. Why not cut your losses, act like an adult, and treat each thread as a separate issue?

07-29-2003, 04:35 PM	#30
Stilton Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 100	From a staff members perspective, what they get for the amount of time they put in is probably much, much more than what they'd get from most free muds. I see what you mean about the difference being Matt earning money from the enterprise, but if it doesn't bother the staff then it shouldn't bother you or I. If every involved party (players, staff, company) is happy with the arrangement , then who are we to complain? It's not like Achaea is some third-world sweatshop and staff is working for $0.10/hr 20 hrs per day because their families will starve otherwise. These are mostly well-educated people with plenty of leverage. You haven't actually addressed the points Mason and I made in the other thread exept to point again and again at a single FAQ entry that's not quite applicable AND is obviously intended as a general guide for the general public rather than as a definitive reference, but let's keep that over there. You've hurled cheap personal insults in both threads. I haven't. I hope you didn't regard the Godwars II comment as a personal attack; I was pointing out that lots of time and get fun/satisfaction of contributing +neat vacation is arguably getting more for your effort than putting in lots of time and getting "just" the fun/satisfaction of contributing. I haven't said that I feel your own reaction against helping someone else earn money with your mostly uncompensated effort is unreasonable. I'm just asking you to accept the idea that other people can reasonably disagree. Choice of how we spend our free time is, after all, a question of opinion. Stilton

07-30-2003, 05:06 AM	#31
Grey Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stony Brook/Chestnut Ridge, NY Posts: 68	I think if someone want to have very hardcore requirements for admin on their MUd then they are entitled to that. In response to the ORIGINAL reason the thread was made; you don't want to be an admin. If you do, do what we all did - wait awhile (EARN it).

07-30-2003, 06:49 AM	#32
macdaddy7 New Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 28	Thank you Estarra, those are some good ideas. Now in response to Grey, I didn't post so people could tell me what to do, I asked a question and if you don't have an answer to my question, don't post at all.

07-30-2003, 12:14 PM	#33
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	That's not the way discussion forums work. You are allowed to post, and other people are allowed to respond. If you don't want other people to reply to your posts in certain ways, then your only option is not to post.

07-30-2003, 12:51 PM	#34
macdaddy7 New Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 28	I'm sure you wouldn't like people to tell you what to do. I don't mind him posting his opinion, but he was distinctly telling me what to do, and I don't have to take that if I don't want to.

07-30-2003, 01:39 PM	#35
Tavish Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 130	Now that thin-skinned and defensive are covered, all you need to do is demonstrate a hunger for power and you will fit the prototype for an immortal. Good luck!

07-30-2003, 09:54 PM	#36
Wik Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: OtherSpace Posts: 140	But we haven't demonstrated exactly how he'll abuse that power yet. Maybe taunt him a little longer?

07-31-2003, 08:23 AM	#37
Grey Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stony Brook/Chestnut Ridge, NY Posts: 68	As an admin, you'll have to deal with a lot more than people's opinions. I don't think you know what you're getting yourself into really. Shortcuts are not the path to success. I apologize if my statement seemed out of place, but I think I have a good deal of experience on the matter. or at the very least, a bit more than you do at the moment.

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