Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > Mud Development and Administration > Legal Issues
Click here to Register

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-31-2003, 04:42 PM   #81
Stroh
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2
Stroh is on a distinguished road
It seems to me that you're saying Aardwolf's intent doesn't matter but the DIKU license's intent does.. there is no explicit definition of what the license means by 'profit' within the wording of the license itself.. so you are using the writer's intent as the basis of your argument..

you can't have it both ways..
Stroh is offline  
Old 10-31-2003, 06:21 PM   #82
 
Posts: n/a
I take it that Aardwolf players aren't willing to donate to keep the game alive without in-game rewards.   I would suggest that using the donations to pay for advertising goes beyond keeping the game alive, that they are being used to promote the game.
 
Old 10-31-2003, 10:40 PM   #83
Jazuela
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 849
Jazuela will become famous soon enoughJazuela will become famous soon enough
I'd say "in any possible way" is about explicit as anyone can possibly be.

Profiting in any possible way would, by definition of the phrase "any possible way," include gross profit, net profit, yo mama's profit, stupid profit, cheesy profit, and profit with hot fudge sauce on top.

That isn't even the point I was making, and had nothing to do with my post. My post was regarding in-game rewards for out of game coin. THAT is not allowed. Even if they're not making any profit, in any possible way. I don't see how they're even breaking THAT rule. They are, however, breaking the rule of giving in-game rewards for out of game payment. And that is against the rules.

Not just a little against them, because you can't only "slightly" break a rule. You either are breaking it, or you're not.
Jazuela is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 03:27 AM   #84
John
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 252
John is on a distinguished road
If the reward makes people donate when they weren't going to originally donate, then it's more then just a "little itty bitty reward". If it's so small, why is it necessary to get people to donate?
John is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 09:15 AM   #85
Ilysia
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9
Ilysia is on a distinguished road
Well I do not donate to Aardwolf to get the reward but now it is htere I migh as well take it.
I would donate nomatter if I get it or not, if I got the money to donate.
I do not belive it is nessesary. I am sure a rew donates to get it but I would not be suprised if we could do it without.

I do not know if it breaks the license but I doubt it breaks the spirit as the reward is so little that I in 1-1½ hour I get what is donated for 1 dollar and this is just qp/tp not lvs and gold. It is exstremly rare people buy the qp to ge strong.
Ilysia is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 10:21 AM   #86
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
It does.
KaVir is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 10:46 AM   #87
arkanes
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3
arkanes is on a distinguished road
To be clear: There is no such rule. The "rule" is an interpertation of the "no profit allowed" clause in the license.
arkanes is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 02:10 PM   #88
Jazuela
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 849
Jazuela will become famous soon enoughJazuela will become famous soon enough
The rule is defined by the creator of the code and distributor and co-writer of the license, as follows:

Now, prior to August 2000, anyone who didn't know of Staerfeldt's intent, might have gotten away with breaking the intent, because it hadn't been discussed until then (to my knowledge). But this information has been around for over three years, and anyone who is currently offering in-game services for out-of-game money is breaking the license. I don't know about other countries, but in the USA, "ignorance of the law" is not an excusable justification for violating it. It is the game-creator's responsibility to find out what the intent is, prior to even thinking about teetering on any line within it.

The intent has been made clear, as of August and September 2000 (respectively), and Aardwolf should stop offering in-game rewards -of any sort- for out of game money, whether they want to call it a donation or a "thank you present" or a corned beef sandwich. The fact that they've only been giving in-game benefits as of a relatively recent timeframe indicates to me, that they probably knew it wasn't a good idea in the first place.

You can't justify it by saying "well it isn't much" or "anyone can get this benefit by just playing," because it doesn't matter. The point, is that if anyone can get it by just playing, then anyone SHOULD get it by just playing, without the added option of paying cash. That option - the option of paying cash to receive in-game ANYTHING - even if it's just a one-time hair color change for your character, is against the rules, as defined by the person who wrote the rules.
Jazuela is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 05:04 PM   #89
Favonius
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 8
Favonius is on a distinguished road
there's so much quoting going on in this thread, it makes my eyes want to bleed. i kind of sit back on this forum and watch discussions, but i wanted to point something out.

Whether you like it or not, if you are popular you have to take on a few responsibilites if you want to be seen well in the public eye. Because you are popular, you are a role model for the community. You should be proud of that. Other MUDs want to be like you. That's why its an outrage to the community that you break a rule even it it is only "a tiny teeny weeny little bit".

That's why the public freaked out at Kobe Bryant. All the little boys want to be Kobe Bryant, a great basketball player. But he raped (supposedly) a woman... does this mean its alright for the little boys to rape women in the future? If there is no public outcry then it may seem that way. Same thing with Martha Stewart. Same thing with every single celebrity that commits a crime.

So no, your crime isn't being popular. Your crime is you are a horrible role model in the community.

You've lost one fan.
Favonius is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 05:09 PM   #90
Delerak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Name: Dan
Location: New York
Posts: 716
Delerak is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Delerak Send a message via AIM to Delerak Send a message via MSN to Delerak Send a message via Yahoo to Delerak
You all are still posting in this thread? Whoever continues posting on this pointless subject should have their balls ripped off so they can't contaminate the rest of the human gene pool. Wait a minute...
Delerak is offline  
Old 11-01-2003, 08:27 PM   #91
Fiendish
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19
Fiendish is on a distinguished road
I took the liberty of asking a lawyer. I know, a crazy idea. Why bother asking a real lawyer when we can all just vomit unqualified opinions?

Here is my question, and the response given so far. More responses may follow. If I receive any, I will post them.

Question: If a software license appears to mean one thing, but the copyright holders say they meant another thing in a logged discussion, but the copyright holders have made no efforts to alter the license agreement that is distributed with that software, what rule should the user follow? Should they follow the agreement or the proposed intent of the copyright holders, even though they have made no efforts to defend their product according to their intent and have made no efforts to correct the license agreement?

Reply: An agreement requires a "meeting of the minds." If the written agreement is clear in its meaning and was entered into by both parties, they cannot now say they didn't mean it. Clear meaning represents a meeting of the minds. Ambiguous meaning permits the parties to claim no "meeting of the minds" and, therefore, no contract.

Reply Posted By:
Sheldon G. Bardach
Law Offices of Sheldon G. Bardach
via LawGuru.com

This means that any claimed restriction on what you can or cannot do with the DikuMud code outside of the strict wording of the license is invalid (This is why EULAs are usually so strictly worded, duh). This means that if you allow donations to support server costs, then you allow such donations regardless of a reward system as no distinction is made in the distributed license agreement as long as no profit is made.

For the record, there is no gross profit made on this venture, so any distinction between net and gross profit is irrelevant.

---
I love you, Delerak, even if your threat is sexist.
Fiendish is offline  
Old 11-02-2003, 04:13 AM   #92
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Which is hardly the question here. We're talking about a software license which isn't completely clear in meaning, but which has later been clarified by the copyright holders in such a way as to still fall within the wording.

Unfortunately for the budding license violators, this "contract" is the only thing giving them permission to copy, modify, distribute or display Diku mud. So yes, you can claim "no meeting of the minds" - but then you no longer have permission to run your mud.
KaVir is offline  
Old 11-02-2003, 02:41 PM   #93
Fiendish
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19
Fiendish is on a distinguished road
Oh, no. You misunderstand. The license is absolutely clear. It says you may make no profit. That's 100% clear. The copyright holders may not then go back many years later and say, "Wait a minute, we didn't mean that. We meant something else." That is the point of the lawyer's response. The changes that you claim they wanted to make, absolutely do not fall within the wording of "Thou shalt make no profit. Thus spaketh the lord." I'm sorry you missed it. I'll explain further.

Since this is the only document distributed with the software that stipulates any restrictions on use, then it IS the contract. The user must agree to whatever it says in order to use the DikuMUD code. The person has no legal obligation to agree to whatever else the copyright holder said later on that is not a part of the contract. This is not a case of the user claiming ambiguous meaning. It is a case of the copyright owner claiming ambiguous meaning. In that event, it is entirely the copyright holder's fault for not making a contract that says what they meant. Since both parties agreed at the time of the writing of the contract that the wording of the contract was accurate, then neither party can then go back and say "Wait a minute, this means something else." This means that the DikuMud copyright is not violated by a mud taking donations as long as donations do not constitute profit, regardless of in-game rewards, because that is exactly what the license says.

Please remember that this is all from a lawyer, and anything you say, until shown otherwise, is not.
Fiendish is offline  
Old 11-02-2003, 03:18 PM   #94
Hephos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: www.sharune.com
Posts: 359
Hephos is on a distinguished road
Hephos is offline  
Old 11-02-2003, 04:32 PM   #95
Estarra
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Home MUD: Lusternia
Posts: 191
Estarra is on a distinguished road
I wonder what the statute of limitations, if any, is on the ability of the diku holders to instigate a claim if they ever choose to. In other words, if sleazymud were to write to the diku team, "I'm going to use the code for commercial purposes." And if there is no response (or even if there is a response and sleazymud retorts with "I'm going to do it anyway"), the ability to make a claim against sleazymud may eventually lapse from the time the diku team knew of the violation. (I'd hazard a guess that the statute of limitations may run for 2-3 years before diku loses their rights to make a claim.) Anyone know if there's a statute of limitations (if any)?
Estarra is offline  
Old 11-03-2003, 04:26 AM   #96
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Actually it says "You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way". And as I've already demonstrated, even going by the IRS definitions there is more than one "way" to define making a profit.

A new poster appears, and with his first post claims to have spoken to a lawyer. Fair enough - except that not only did you ask him an extremely misleading question, you've also taken your own interpretation of his answer and started citing it as a legal opinion!

And FYI, the quote I gave in the previous thread concerning intent came from a Justice as part of a judgement in a case.
KaVir is offline  
Old 11-03-2003, 10:26 AM   #97
Burr
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 123
Burr is on a distinguished road
Regarding the statute of limitations, I doubt it would even be relevant until A) the person actually offends the license (rather than simply stating an intent to do so) and B) the owners of the license learn of the actual offense (and not simply the intent).

The license owners might also be able to sue for the stated intent if the civil court sees it as the financial equivalent of assault before battery, but I doubt that as well. But if so, then the statue of limitations might be relevant to that offense, but it still wouldn't yet be relevant to the other, I don't think. I'm just going by what seems to make common sense to me, though, not any significant legal training.
Burr is offline  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:23 AM   #98
KaVir
Legend
 
KaVir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
KaVir will become famous soon enoughKaVir will become famous soon enough
Please don't forget that the statute of limitations would apply for each violation. So unless we're talking about a mud which violated the license on one occasion then didn't do anything for a few years, the point is really moot.

As an example, the statute of limitations for property damage and theft of property (called conversion) is usually three years from the date of the incident. But if your "victim" doesn't bring a lawsuit against you, that doesn't give you free reign to destroy/steal their property as much as you like for the rest of your life.
KaVir is offline  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:32 AM   #99
Valg
Senior Member
 
Valg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Carrion Fields
Posts: 643
Valg will become famous soon enough
We're off topic. No one is suggested bringing legal action against Aardwolf to my knowledge. What they are seeking is the removal of Aardwolf from a privately owned website. If the owner(s) of the website decide that they don't like how Aardwolf sells in-game rewards, they can remove Aardwolf from the list.

In the past, this has been done to other games that violate the spirit of license agreements that led to solid, publically available codebases. Whether or not their actions would stand up once the lawyers get their paws on it doesn't matter at all.
Valg is offline  
Old 11-04-2003, 02:14 AM   #100
Lanthum
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 138
Lanthum is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Lanthum
Well Deathwing, you have completely missed the point of what KaVir was saying.  The reason it discourages individuals from contributing is not JUST because they are giving away rewards, it is because they (and everyone who supports them) is trying to twist the DIKU's intent behind releasing the code in the first place.

I wasn't going to post, because I felt everything was being said nicely already, until I came across your post Deathwing.  It makes me sick to know that there are many, many people out there like the Aardwolf Owner(s), yourself, and everyone else who is begging the others to shut up about the truth!  If this kind of behavior continues, it makes others not want to contribute because we know, that no matter how hard we try, there will always be someone out there trying to pervert and subvert our intentions.  No matter the DIKU team didn't want people to GET/MAKE money of any kind, no instead you guys just TRY to figure out a loophole around it.  People like that don't even try to make their own completely original code to make money on - they just use someone else's, and then break the rules for use claiming "no violation".  All the while sitting behind a human wall of zealots who defend for them saying "nothing can be done until the vanished DIKU team makes a claim against them".

Utterly sickening.  But, I guess when the dust settles, everyone out there on the other side of this legal fence will feel some sense of accomplishment for finding a loophole around what has been commonly stated.

And Fiendish - yes, you can claim "no meeting of the minds", but the Justice Dept has already ruled that that doesn't give the "end user" free legal right to continue to use the item/object/product.  I'll let you and Google find the rest.

And to all those people out there who wish to argue the legal stand point of "gross profit/net profit allows us to get around the agreement" ... better point your favorite browser to and take a look at the meaning of Non-Profit and Tax-Exempt.  As someone already said on this thread (that was completely ignored), just because you don't actually make any money from your venture, doesn't make you "non-profit".  The Feds only allow very specific types of business to be non-profit.  And by their qualifications, Aardwolf would never qualify as a Non-Proft venture.  And if you aren't considered "Non-Profit" by the Feds, then you are considered "For Profit" - no matter how good/bad your bottom line is.  And THAT IS AGAINST the letter of the agreement.

So you can try and twist the meaning of PROFIT around every way you want, but even under legal definitions, they are taking in money.  And even if their expenses = take in (which I doubt), they are still considered by the IRS as "making profit", just not doing a good job of running the business.
Lanthum is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools


Aardwolf commercially violating diku licence - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diku license the_logos Legal Issues 86 07-27-2007 08:31 AM
What if there had never been DIKU? Threshold Tavern of the Blue Hand 24 05-26-2006 07:43 PM
The DIKU license the_logos Tavern of the Blue Hand 242 05-06-2006 12:28 PM
original Diku? david Advertising for Players 0 02-16-2006 02:26 AM
Aardwolf presents - Aardwolf Hold'em! Filt MUD Announcements 0 09-05-2005 05:34 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2022