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Old 06-21-2005, 07:41 PM   #41
Maraz
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I'm not sure if others would agree, but I see the point of a RP orientated MUD of being a chance to tell the story of a character. The best thing about it is that you are telling the story with other people. As you are playing with other people you have a responsibility to others to keep in character. If the world is supposed to be based on real historical culture it is fair to expect people to abide by it.

MUDs should provide a variety of settings in which to tell the story of your character. If the setting you want for your story is one where gender inequality exists then what's the problem. MUDs can be about creating your idealised self - but they don't have to be. I never found much enjoyment in creating an idealised character, because I learnt nothing from it and couldn't feel any link to that character. Instead I like to roleplay someone who has faults, emotions and weaknesses that I can explore.

I have no problem with MUDs that allow for self-realisation, that's great, but there is a demand for "realistic" (I don't like using that word but I couldn't find anything better) atmoshperes. Simple market forces dictate that MUDs will emerge that restrict what you can achieve, because there are people who want that.

In intensive roleplay the actions of the character should be based on their own aspirations, rather than the player's. I don't see why a female character should be told what their aspirations should be, but I do think that in an accurate historical world it would be reasonable for the world to work against their achievement of their aspirations. As unfair as this is, it shouldn't lessen the enjoyment of the game if it is for the sake of roleplay. Infact if anything, like others have mentioned, it should increase the enjoyment because roleplaying the struggle of a character is usually more interesting than roleplaying a character who has achived their aspirations. After all if roleplay is seen as the process of telling a story (which it may not be for everyone) it requires an element of struggle and transformation for the character.

I don't think that creating a gender gap (in a roleplayM MUD at least) is anti-feminist. Infact a MUD where gender roles played an important part would more rightly be seen as of interest to feminists. If you read a book about a woman struggling to achieve her goals in a male orientated world you would rightly consider it to be adressing a feminist issue. A MUD which effectively does the same thing is no different.

-PS One in the morning where I am and I've just been out so I appologise for any of this post that is unclear.
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Old 06-21-2005, 07:42 PM   #42
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Alright, this thread is careening off the track and is about to crash into an out and out flame war between the genders.  The fact is, men and women are different.  Whether or not it is conveyed in a MUD, it is a fact in real life.  But people play games as an escape, the same way someone might take pain-killers to "escape" from the real world.  
  I don't think women would want a real-world simulation in a video game because they don't want the real-world, they want someplace where they can be a cowgirl, or a knight, or a warrior.  I can understand why someone wouldn't be keen on an imaginary world where they were barred from doing what they want to do.  I would be pretty ****ed if Rise of Nations forced me to play as Somali Bantu every game because of the color of my skin.
  What I want is an end to the arguing about real-life issues we can't change, and getting back to the subject matter instead of a petty gender war.
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Old 06-21-2005, 07:46 PM   #43
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It's one in the morning? Where do you live, China?
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:00 PM   #44
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>Ilkidarios
Firstly I don't think the idea was that women were forced to play a female character. I don't really understand the point you a trying to make if that's not what you thought.

Secondly I don't think that there has been really much gender war or flaming in the posts I read. Infact for such a sensative issue I thought the thread had stayed remarkably civil.

>Fifi
I think you answered this question with your second post, the struggle could be one way in which it is interesting. However I don't see why it shouldn't be interesting to play out the life of someone who is opressed and accepts it. Sure you wouldn't want to be that person, but roleplay can be simply about exploring different cultures and lives. It might not be fun for everyone, but I think it is fair to challange the idea that MUDs have to be an escape where you live a better life. I don't play MUDs because I want to get away from the real world, I play MUDs because I want to make up characters and create stories. Maybe I am in a minority, but I know I'm not alone.

No, England.
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:14 PM   #45
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Maraz,

I hear you. You make some good points. I'm not saying someone shouldn't make a mud that's reflective of a time that is restrictive. However, I don't know if I want to play there. It's not that I want a fantasy world to be better than real life, but I do want it to be interesting. If I'm going to tell a story, I want to tell a story that appeals to me on some level. Other people can write those other stories. I wonder too, if this society that Prof envisions is restrictive only to women. I think the real glaring differences between the modern world and the middle ages are things like bad teeth, a lack of comfort, entertainment and fullfilment. Even the idea of fullfillment. Most people in the time of chivalry were not knights. They were tenant dirt farmers eeking out an existence and hoping for a better one in the afterlife. And even the knights had lice and wiped their hands on dogs instead of napkins. Gender inequality was a privlege. Most men didn't have enough for women to envy them for it.
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Old 06-21-2005, 10:59 PM   #46
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You don't understand the idea of who a Bantu is.  In being a Bantu, there is much that is entailed in African society.  A Bantu man would be discriminated against by other Africans as an adoo, or "slave" in the native language, becuase historically we were the lower class of African society.  Essentially what I am in modern day America.  I would not want to be a Bantu in Africa.  
Rise of Nations is a poor example because there are other nations in the game that were non-African.  The point I was trying to make was that if I played a game which was composed entirely of African peoples, I would not want to choose Bantu (my ancestors) and be discriminated against, I would want to choose what I am and be equal to other Africans.  Does that clear it up?
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:42 PM   #47
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Research! Research! Research!

There are plenty of historical precedent for strong female roles. Of course, if you're bound and determined to stick to a European medieval theme, you may be somewhat limited. But if your willing to look a little further afield, especially in a fantasy realm, you'll find lots of interesting facts to inspire you. Of course, there are many "wise woman" roles, and many societies that revere the magic of childbirth.

But perhaps it is the role of warrior that may trip you up. However, even then, there is a lot about which may help you gain other perspective. My favorite is the King of Fanti's elite female warriors (circa 1800's), who at their height were 2500 strong and enjoyed equal status with male warriors. They had different divisions, such as the 'blunderbuss women' and the 'razor women'.

Anyway, I'd suggest not be confined to one culture, you could create a hybrid culture or, if you have the resources and inclination, have several different cultures that offer diverse socities that players can choose from. As far as gender differences, maybe females are more dexterous and males are more physically stronger--as long as these statistics balance in the game design. I believe Imperian once tried an Amazon guild open only to women, which I always thought was a novel approach.
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:49 PM   #48
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Female players will not be restricted in choosing only female characters. Never said that and never intended it.

As for male characters, there are limitations upon their behavior as well. And both male and female characters are restricted by social class and economic prosperity. But even powerful nobility would have expectations so far as their behavior is concerned and actions to the contrary would result in gossip, scandal, or even disgrace and ruin.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:24 AM   #49
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We know you didn't intend it, it was an analogy on my part that did not convey my message correctly.
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