[Rundvelt]

I was re-reading the rules the other day, happy to see the suggestion made it in.

So, please allow me to make another suggestion. Perhaps it would be a good idea to take this "reward" theme and take it one step further.

I'd say it would be a great idea if muds could not give rewards to all players if they win a certain position. So, for example, if a mud breaks into the top 5, all players will get a day of double exp (let's say).

The way it seems to be phrased is that you cannot individually reward players. (that's the way I read it, I could be wrong).

Anyways, I think the reasons for this are pretty self evident, but I'll go through them anyways...

1) Basically sidesteps the "no individual reward" theme of the rule. I believe the intent is to have people vote because they like the mud, not cause they're working together for more gold earned or whatever.

2) Encourages cheating, espicially if someone is going to get something (even if everyone gets the same thing).

Anyways, just a thought.

[Kinnith]

I agree, while giving something for voting, shouldnt be allowed, it really can not be controled, how ever, the generalized "If we get into the top 10, Double quest points
gains for everyone!" is a great thing.

I myself, only have been open to voting for the last couple days, (due to an error of typing) am now sitting in 49th place.

I told my players that if we could at least get onto the list, I would run a large quest, if we were to get past a certian target mud, the prizes would get better, and if we got into the top 10, go us.

I cant force them to vote, but they vote because they like the mud, and in enjoying the mud, they want to see cooler prizes.

I just wanted to post anyways, this is like my second post ever.

[Brody]

I could be wrong, and you may not be surprised to hear we've had this conversation on TMS so many times before that it gets to feeling like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day, but I'm pretty sure that rewards of any kind for voting are frowned heavily upon.

I used to do what Kinnith did - reward *everyone* if we got to a certain point in the listings, whether it was a plot or experience points. I ceased doing that because of Synozeer's clarification that *no rewards of any kind* should be allowed to encourage voting. And, I have to agree with that, really, because it's one thing for players to vote for your MUD out of loyalty and pride - and quite another for them to do it because you're effectively bribing them - even if it's totally well-intentioned.

[Dulan]

Ditto Brody.

Rewarded everyone, all that before.

Thing is, the intent of the rule really seems to imply that no rewards of any kind should be given.

But eh. That's too hard to enforce .

[Rundvelt]

Oh sorry, didn't know this was already brought up.

I figured with the last policy change to rewards that it was a new topic.

[Kinnith]

Well in response to no rewards of any kind should be given to vote, the fact is my players are very loyal, and have been with me since the starting point.

I just feel that if we get to a certian point, they should get something, I mean, I cant alone vote for it, The game wouldnt even show up on the lists, the fact is, they vote because they care, not because of what might come of it.

Everyone gets lost in playing the game, they forget to vote, and reminding them that after we hit a certian point, special events will happen, Now if you want to call this bribing my players, do so, even if I had not put the game up for voting, they would happen anyways, I just feel better about doing it, and drawing in more players at the same time.

Becides, the number one mud currently and has been for quite some time, is a play to pay server, and according to the owner, has over 700 players on at one time, dont you think that a mud like that, first place almost all the time, should reward their players with such loyal voting?

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (Kinnith @ Aug. 27 2004,19:37) Becides, the number one mud currently and has been for quite some time, is a play to pay server, and according to the owner, has over 700 players on at one time, dont you think that a mud like that, first place almost all the time, should reward their players with such loyal voting?

What I think is fairly immaterial in this discussion, because the rules are as the rules are - and I'm not entirely sure they need to change. Even if I thought they did, it'd be up to Synozeer. It's his site, his house, his rules.

That said: Any argument in favor of a reward of *any* kind is effectively an argument in favor of rewards of *all* kinds, and defeats the spirit of the site.

My games aren't currently in the Top 20. They were there a lot during the early days of TMS. Do I miss being there all the time? Sure. But I don't worry too much about being on the front page just for the sake of being on the front page - if I want to be there, I can and do spend $25 on advertising banner placement. The expense is worth the effort saved in trying to rally or bribe the troops all the time, as it were .

New games are going to struggle on this list. So are plenty of old games with smaller player bases. I'd worry less about rewards for voting getting the attention, and instead do more of what you're doing: Contributing to discussions here at TMS, keeping your game's name out there, posting in the Advertising for Players board once a month or so, just to keep your game's name on the radar.

And, if you can afford it, do some advertising with TMS. It's a good deal and it's a decent equalizer when it comes to a game's visibility.

[Kinnith]

Your right, rewards arnt allowed. I dont care what place im in really, as long as I am on the list. I dont completly expect you to understand nor anyone else, Hey if he wants to remove me from the list for giving a little something extra into what ive already planned to do, more power to him.

My players take their time to go and vote, and as long as they do so they will get a special type of event once per month, they arnt getting rewarded for placement as per say, but being on the list.

We just opened last friday, and are in 49th place, Not because of any "reward", but because I had told them that the event would be a bit better if we were at least on the list.

Of course I have a rival mud, and most are from there, so they voted even more to pass them, in which we did.

Rewards dont mean cheating, my players know not to cheat, and if they did so would be punished, as I said, the "reward" they are reciving is something that was going to happen anyways, but just a bit better.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Kinnith @ Aug. 27 2004,19:37) Becides, the number one mud currently and has been for quite some time, is a play to pay server, and according to the owner, has over 700 players on at one time, dont you think that a mud like that, first place almost all the time, should reward their players with such loyal voting?

Actually, Achaea doesn't get 700 simultaneous players. We nearly broke 700 once, but daily peaks a bit over 500 are more common. The 700 figure you may have seen me use was from adding Achaea, Imperian, and Aetolia's numbers together whenever I happened to post.

And we do reward our players with such loyal voting. We work on our games ceaselessly to improve them, and isn't that the best reward? I have no fundamental problem with rewarding people to vote, but the rules are, I think, fairly clear that it's not allowed.

--matt

[Kinnith]

Originally Posted by And we do reward our players with such loyal voting. We work on our games ceaselessly to improve them, and isn't that the best reward? I have no fundamental problem with rewarding people to vote, but the rules are, I think, fairly clear that it's not allowed.

Just decides how you wish to look at that, I realize that it may not seem it, but someone could take that as, Hey if we stay at number one, <instert name here> is going to be put in, But I do however understand what your saying, the word "rewards" is a very touchy thing, because anything could be considered such, IE, say for some reason We hit number 1, and Im so happy I give my players like X amount of gold. Not preplanned or thought of as a reward, but would be considered such.

The Line is thin, and we have large feet.

[Valg]

The Line is thin, and we have large feet.

The line isn't thin at all. Coercing your players to vote by bribing them with goodies isn't allowed. It's against the letter and spirit of the rule in question.

[Kinnith]

Valg, You are either an idiot or missed my point.

The thin line is that of what is considered rewarding someone for voting, or rewarding your game for reaching a goal.

As I said before, what if I come and vote, and see my mud at number one, im going to be excited, but if I log my mud, and say hey we are number one, lets do this or that, while not planned, it could, and could not be a reward for voting.

The line is thin as to what is considered a reward and what is not, because anything could be misconstrued as rewarding a player or players.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (Kinnith @ Aug. 27 2004,23:44) Valg, You are either an idiot or missed my point.

Oy. Another victory for rational discourse. Sound the horns, lads.

[Kinnith]

You got me, I havent the slightest clue as to what you ment.

But hey, fun times.

[Cierel]

You cannot bribe players to vote. You cannot reward players for voting. You cannot reward the MUD for the result of all the voes. There line is large and clear.

If you're excited by your ranking, fine. Just don't even imply to your players that whatever you do has anything to do with their voting.

Look, when I was your age, we had to vote by pressing a button that took all our strength to move, and it was electrified, so every time we voted it gave us a huge shock. And we had to do it seventy times just to record one vote! Today's whippersnappers get reward enough by just being able to click with a mouse. Hmph.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (Cierel @ Aug. 28 2004,01:54) Look, when I was your age, we had to vote by pressing a button that took all our strength to move, and it was electrified, so every time we voted it gave us a huge shock. And we had to do it seventy times just to record one vote! Today's whippersnappers get reward enough by just being able to click with a mouse. Hmph.

HA! Nice! So, you're a Florida voter too, eh?

[Khadgar]

Just out of curiousity.. anybody out there punish their players for not voting?  

No votes! No Mud!  *cracks the whip*

I suppose that would make playing the mud a reward.. Hmm...

I do agree though that voting should not be *influenced* in any way.

[Jazuela]

Kinnith is referring to an "afterthought," and not a planned or intended effort to get votes. It's still against the rules, but I just wanted to clarify that so at least HE would know that someone understands wht he's talking about.

Planned or intended - you know in advance that people respond to rewards, and let them know that a reward will be forthcoming if you get the results you want.

Afterthought - you don't tell'em nuttin' and they vote anyway, without any prompting from you other than a "Please vote" and the link. You get the results you were hoping for and are so happy about that you give your players a little perk to thank them.

Yes, I understand the difference Kinnith, and your afterthought idea is very generous and a nice thing to do. But it is still against the rules, and I also understand why that is so: If you thank them once, they'll turn into Pavlov's dogs and start voting even more because they begin to expect a reward. And that...right there...is against the spirit of the voting process.

The fault wouldn't be yours, you're just trying to be nice to your players and thank them for doing something they did without your prompting. But the results would be the same regardless.

What you -could- do however...is place a banner or header on your main website, something like: "Thanks to our Players, we are now # (whatever number) on the TopMudSites voting list!"

And let them know in that way, that you truly appreciate their vote.

[Kinnith]

Jazuela, all I have to say is, you rock.

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (Kinnith @ Aug. 28 2004,11:24) Jazuela, all I have to say is, you rock.

I have my moments