Advanced MUD Concepts

Dulan · 05-01-2002, 08:59 PM

My comments:

What I posted was not flames. Blunt, yes, but they were not flames. (Trust me on that).

Now, what I am looking for is something that makes Alexander credible. He hosts on Geocities. Just that, in itself, makes me want to run for life (and reproductive organs) for a GDG club being hosted there.

See, Alexander comes off as a 'fanboy' to me. As Threshold pointed out many times, his research seems extremely....limited, and not particularly well-done. NWN is NOT revolutionary. Many games, pointed out by other posters, have entered the ground it has. Honestly, I think he is as full of it as Xanferious. Is that flaming? Not really. I think he is full of it - but, I'm not insulting him in that statement. That is a statement based on my opinion of him, and what opinions he has given out.

Honestly, while he may have been working on -games- for 20 years (And if he uses that definition, I've been working on games for 15+ years), I do not see how that applies towards _online_ games. If anyone doubts - an online game is a whole different breed than an offline game. I can tell you that from personal experience. Claiming to have experience in game design of offline games when you speak of online games is like claiming experience in 8 years of (implied) C++, when you have been writing in C for 8, and C++ for a couple months. (I'll maintain that C++ is an entirely different beast than C.) While they do have similarities, by no means are they the same -genre- really.

Sidmouth · 05-01-2002, 09:29 PM

Regardless of his experience, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion on neverwinter. Neverwinter *does* have some potentially quite unique and interesting features. As far as I know, it is the first graphical, online RPG where an end user will be able to assume the roll of a gamemaster. The engine appears to be flexible and we know it to be moddable. There's certainly some legitimate reasons to believe that NWN will have a significant impact on the gaming community.

Regardless of whether or not NWN is revolutionary or not, all Andrew said was that GDG started with NWN and that he believes it has great potential. The latter point seems plausible and the former point is reasonable given the goal of the organization.

Caxandra · 05-02-2002, 08:44 AM

Agreed: Opinions are things each side can have. But, dude, if you don't want to trust it, simple: Don't Go. Since you claim not to want to look at Geocities sites because you're too scared to believe that they're may be a legitimate reason for starting *someplace*, even crappy ol' Geocities, then almost any idea on that entire base will be lost to you.

I hate to think I missed an Idea, due to fear.

Alexander Tau · 05-02-2002, 07:46 PM

The purpose for the Game Directors Guild has been well
described by some of our members already, so I will not go
into those points.

But to the things about me personally.

Did it ever occur to some of you that anyone can get a web page on
places like Geocities? For me it has been a personal site for many
years. I was in fact the first Community Leader for the Reseach
Triangle where it is located.

So if that is the basis of your deductions about the truth of my
background it is rather lacking. The only things on my personal
Site are a couple of documents. The first actual GDG site is hosted
on a private Domain loaned to us by one of our members.

I started to program in 1973 on an army base in West Germany.
Recorded my first program on paper tape via a TTY teletype terminal
attached to a mainframe with 16K of memory for 5 terminals.

The first time I was ever paid for a programming job I was 16 and it
was for the Civil Defense office of a small town. When the BBSs came
along I got involved, created game addons, moderated Echos, and
eventually got involved with a game called Ultimate Universe. Trade
Wars was king, UU was complex.

I made it a hit when I took over as manager of the small shareware project
created by Garth Bigalow, brilliant guy. In a few years he had sold some 500
registrations, in 6 months we sold thousands.

Along the way I won an Art Contest for another game called Land of
evistation and participated in it's development for a few years.

During the time of BBSs, where calling Long Distance was a daily event.
I created a group called (-) Zone Central. Using BBSs in 4 states, we took
simple games and added an RP story on top that involved everyone.
Primative, but fun. Many BBSs were single line affairs, so time shareing
was an art.

Then the move to the InterNet, Muds, and all things online in this new way.
Along the way I fronted a couple of rock bands, and had a few other adventures.

There are other things, money I have made, projects I have released, articles
published in game newsletters, Sites and zines.

But enough of that.

A revolution can sometimes be a single step.

I think NWN is taking a couple, regardless of personal views, AD&D is the
most known RPG, the mother of them all, and that is going to get a lot of
attention. Will NWN be stable enough to be 24/7, guess we will see, but it
is a design goal, so I have faith that any problems will work out.

If it works well enough, more will follow. It is not the holy grail, but it is
something special.

A.T
(-)

Xanferious · 05-02-2002, 08:36 PM

god your such a child, i pitty you.....

Dulan · 05-02-2002, 08:40 PM

Xanferious, in order to pity the one you label as 'child', you should be older than a child yourself.

While you may lay claim to a double-standard, the hypocrisy of one is quickly rendered visible.

-D

visko · 05-06-2002, 05:28 AM

KaVir · 05-06-2002, 07:06 AM

Unfortunately many people in the GW community base their opinion of me on rumours (at least some of which are caused by people pretending to be me), and judge my coding skills by GodWars - which I wrote 7 years ago, was my first C program, and was hacked up horribly by several people before being leaked out. There are plenty of things to dislike about me, but it's very closed minded to make assumptions about a person based on a lack of knowledge.

Perhaps that's why I'm more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

visko · 05-08-2002, 12:04 AM

The original opinion was founded less on knowledge than hearsay. However, my message was more about learning to see past rumors/facades. Lets see how Tau can get this thing going, and maybe we'll get some people excited enough to cause the "new big idea" that'll find us back in the realm of mass hardcore gamers.

-Visko

Threshold · 05-08-2002, 01:35 AM

There is enough real flaming on the internet that one should not label the sharing of one's opinions as FLAMING simply because they are contrary to someone else.

It is my belief, that anyone who feels Neverwinter Nights is "revolutionary" is not very well educated in the history of gaming- and especially not in the history of online gaming.

Furthermore, I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the talent, means, and experience of anyone who cannot even secure quality web space, and thus has to use pop-up/pop-under driven geo****ties to host a page.

When sorting out the wheat from the chaff online, one of the main things you look for is credibility. A complete lack of basic historical knowledge about gaming and the use of geocities creates a significant LACK of credibility.

Alexander Tau · 05-08-2002, 04:48 AM

"It is my belief, that anyone who feels Neverwinter Nights is "revolutionary" is not very well
educated in the history of gaming- and especially not in the history of online gaming."

You are entitled to it, however to assume because you disagree with me that
I am not well versed in the history and depth of games is simply incorrect. Even
people with the exact same background can have a difference of opinion.

"Furthermore, I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the talent, means,
and experience of anyone who cannot even secure quality web space, and
thus has to use pop-up/pop-under driven geo****ties to host a page. "

By making that statement you prove a couple of things, first that you do not
really read very carefully before you launch into this sort of thing, and second
by your continued use of the rude GeoCities spelling that you are rather crude.

One last time, please try to read it.

The GeoCities Site is my PERSONAL page, a couple of the original docs are
available there. The GDG Site is hosted on a PRIVATE LEASED DOMAIN that
was DONATED to the GDG. Got it now?

"A complete lack of basic historical knowledge about gaming and the use of
geocities creates a significant LACK of credibility. "

That is just the most amazing conclusion, and one that is backed up
by nothing whatsoever, have you ever heard of the scientific method?

Are we done with this now?

A.T
(-)

Alexander Tau · 05-08-2002, 05:33 AM

Since I am obviously a bit annoyed at the moment, I am going
to say something I intended not to.

Does it strike anyone as Ironic that I am being so harshly questioned
in a Forum that is my very own creation?

I pitched the idea of an 'Advanced Mud Concepts' forum to Syn, and
was the orginial Moderator. If I am lying then it will come out rather
quickly will it not?

I thought about 4 years ago that enough development had continued
on MU*s despite dire warnings of death that something like this Forum
was a worthy idea. Still around, score one for me.

Threashold,

You started out with a fairly reasonable tone, but you just assumed I
wa a fool and did not ask me anything, this is disturbing. Do you really
know NWN? Have you read the faq, tech info, to really get the full
picture? If you have and you think it is just another kinda nice game
then I accept that opinion. I think differently of course.

A.T
(-)

Threshold · 05-08-2002, 09:29 AM

Aha. Now this whole forum was "your idea."

Because lord knows, the idea of an advanced mud concepts discussion area was never conceived of before.

A certain mailing list called mud dev springs to mind.

The way you try to take credit for things does nothing but further undermine your motives and your credibility.

Vitaly · 05-08-2002, 10:58 AM

visko · 05-08-2002, 08:48 PM

I think we've strayed from the point a bit...

Remember: we're talking about GDG. Whatever Tau's credentials/lack thereof, let's stick to the point of the thread.

-Visko

Alexander Tau · 05-09-2002, 04:24 PM

Thank you Visko,

The Game Directors Guild is doing quite well. People have been picking
KaVir's brain non-stop, and we have recirenly added a couple members
who have significant professional game backgrounds.

I have to apologize for allowing myself to be drawn into these stupid
debates, in any group of people, even the exceptional one here, there
are always a couple of fools who just have to jump on others.

A.T
(-)

Synozeer · 05-10-2002, 01:02 AM

Just a note:

Alexander Tau was a member of TopMudSites.com when it first went up, and he was a very active and contributing member of the forum. He also did indeed suggest the creation of this Advanced Mud Concepts forum because he felt there needed to be a place dedicated to discussing these "higher" concepts.

-Synozeer

Steiner · 05-10-2002, 11:10 AM

I read this thread backwards, since the flaming on the last page was so much fun, I slowly worked my way to the actual POINT.

Threshold, call it what you want, but focussing on the hosting of AT's website is kind of sad. Why don't you go insult his car, and tell him that makes him worthless to the MUD community.

I usually don't really get involved in these types of posts, simply because I dont have the time anymore, and dont want to deal with ego vs. ego. However in this case, it directly affects me, since not only has AT been very helpful to me, but I myself am a game director.

You know how much experience I have creating a game? Little to none. Does that completely destroy my credibility when I have an opinion on something? I'm working my hardest to collect staff, resources, ideas, and support. It doesn't take 10+ years experience to do that. Will I make mistakes? Sure. But I AM entitled to my opinion, and it shouldn't be flushed down the toilet. The same applies to AT who has MUCH more experience than the average MUDder.

IF you have an opinion on his website hosting, on his experience, or on his opinions, it's usually NOT helping the Advanced MUD Concept board. Thats where being an adult, or at least being a mature human being comes into play. Calling it "geo****ties" reflects the fact that you can't keep your opinion in a moderate tone, and show a certain amount of a decency or respect to the person posting.

Try and treat the person who starts posts like this, or any posts in the forum, as if they are standing on a stage in front of a large crowd of people, which isn't that far from truth in a way. You wouldn't yell "You idiot! Look at that yellow tie! Im not listening to anything you say." The same applies here. Ask questions that will be productive, make suggestions, even point out things that might be problematic or you disagree with. But going to attack a person that makes the post outright, is not only immaturely idiotic, but doesn't serve to improve anything.

This might have been just a bit off topic, and for that I apologize. Unfortunately, things like this have to be addressed if this is going to be a productive forum, and not just a flaming attack free-for-all.

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05-01-2002, 08:11 PM	#21
Sidmouth Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 35

05-01-2002, 08:59 PM	#22
Dulan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 354	My comments: What I posted was not flames. Blunt, yes, but they were not flames. (Trust me on that). Now, what I am looking for is something that makes Alexander credible. He hosts on Geocities. Just that, in itself, makes me want to run for life (and reproductive organs) for a GDG club being hosted there. See, Alexander comes off as a 'fanboy' to me. As Threshold pointed out many times, his research seems extremely....limited, and not particularly well-done. NWN is NOT revolutionary. Many games, pointed out by other posters, have entered the ground it has. Honestly, I think he is as full of it as Xanferious. Is that flaming? Not really. I think he is full of it - but, I'm not insulting him in that statement. That is a statement based on my opinion of him, and what opinions he has given out. Honestly, while he may have been working on -games- for 20 years (And if he uses that definition, I've been working on games for 15+ years), I do not see how that applies towards _online_ games. If anyone doubts - an online game is a whole different breed than an offline game. I can tell you that from personal experience. Claiming to have experience in game design of offline games when you speak of online games is like claiming experience in 8 years of (implied) C++, when you have been writing in C for 8, and C++ for a couple months. (I'll maintain that C++ is an entirely different beast than C.) While they do have similarities, by no means are they the same -genre- really.

05-01-2002, 09:29 PM	#23
Sidmouth Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 35	Regardless of his experience, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion on neverwinter. Neverwinter does have some potentially quite unique and interesting features. As far as I know, it is the first graphical, online RPG where an end user will be able to assume the roll of a gamemaster. The engine appears to be flexible and we know it to be moddable. There's certainly some legitimate reasons to believe that NWN will have a significant impact on the gaming community. Regardless of whether or not NWN is revolutionary or not, all Andrew said was that GDG started with NWN and that he believes it has great potential. The latter point seems plausible and the former point is reasonable given the goal of the organization.

05-02-2002, 08:44 AM	#24
Caxandra Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 44	Agreed: Opinions are things each side can have. But, dude, if you don't want to trust it, simple: Don't Go. Since you claim not to want to look at Geocities sites because you're too scared to believe that they're may be a legitimate reason for starting someplace, even crappy ol' Geocities, then almost any idea on that entire base will be lost to you. I hate to think I missed an Idea, due to fear.

05-02-2002, 07:46 PM	#25
Alexander Tau Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 101	The purpose for the Game Directors Guild has been well described by some of our members already, so I will not go into those points. But to the things about me personally. Did it ever occur to some of you that anyone can get a web page on places like Geocities? For me it has been a personal site for many years. I was in fact the first Community Leader for the Reseach Triangle where it is located. So if that is the basis of your deductions about the truth of my background it is rather lacking. The only things on my personal Site are a couple of documents. The first actual GDG site is hosted on a private Domain loaned to us by one of our members. I started to program in 1973 on an army base in West Germany. Recorded my first program on paper tape via a TTY teletype terminal attached to a mainframe with 16K of memory for 5 terminals. The first time I was ever paid for a programming job I was 16 and it was for the Civil Defense office of a small town. When the BBSs came along I got involved, created game addons, moderated Echos, and eventually got involved with a game called Ultimate Universe. Trade Wars was king, UU was complex. I made it a hit when I took over as manager of the small shareware project created by Garth Bigalow, brilliant guy. In a few years he had sold some 500 registrations, in 6 months we sold thousands. Along the way I won an Art Contest for another game called Land of evistation and participated in it's development for a few years. During the time of BBSs, where calling Long Distance was a daily event. I created a group called (-) Zone Central. Using BBSs in 4 states, we took simple games and added an RP story on top that involved everyone. Primative, but fun. Many BBSs were single line affairs, so time shareing was an art. Then the move to the InterNet, Muds, and all things online in this new way. Along the way I fronted a couple of rock bands, and had a few other adventures. There are other things, money I have made, projects I have released, articles published in game newsletters, Sites and zines. But enough of that. A revolution can sometimes be a single step. I think NWN is taking a couple, regardless of personal views, AD&D is the most known RPG, the mother of them all, and that is going to get a lot of attention. Will NWN be stable enough to be 24/7, guess we will see, but it is a design goal, so I have faith that any problems will work out. If it works well enough, more will follow. It is not the holy grail, but it is something special. A.T (-)

05-02-2002, 08:36 PM	#26
Xanferious Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Void Posts: 490	god your such a child, i pitty you.....

05-02-2002, 08:40 PM	#27
Dulan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 354	Xanferious, in order to pity the one you label as 'child', you should be older than a child yourself. While you may lay claim to a double-standard, the hypocrisy of one is quickly rendered visible. -D

05-06-2002, 05:28 AM	#28
visko Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 98

05-06-2002, 07:06 AM	#29
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Unfortunately many people in the GW community base their opinion of me on rumours (at least some of which are caused by people pretending to be me), and judge my coding skills by GodWars - which I wrote 7 years ago, was my first C program, and was hacked up horribly by several people before being leaked out. There are plenty of things to dislike about me, but it's very closed minded to make assumptions about a person based on a lack of knowledge. Perhaps that's why I'm more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

05-08-2002, 12:04 AM	#30
visko Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 98	The original opinion was founded less on knowledge than hearsay. However, my message was more about learning to see past rumors/facades. Lets see how Tau can get this thing going, and maybe we'll get some people excited enough to cause the "new big idea" that'll find us back in the realm of mass hardcore gamers. -Visko

05-08-2002, 01:35 AM	#31
Threshold Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Threshold RPG Posts: 1,260	There is enough real flaming on the internet that one should not label the sharing of one's opinions as FLAMING simply because they are contrary to someone else. It is my belief, that anyone who feels Neverwinter Nights is "revolutionary" is not very well educated in the history of gaming- and especially not in the history of online gaming. Furthermore, I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the talent, means, and experience of anyone who cannot even secure quality web space, and thus has to use pop-up/pop-under driven geo****ties to host a page. When sorting out the wheat from the chaff online, one of the main things you look for is credibility. A complete lack of basic historical knowledge about gaming and the use of geocities creates a significant LACK of credibility.

05-08-2002, 04:48 AM	#32
Alexander Tau Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 101	"It is my belief, that anyone who feels Neverwinter Nights is "revolutionary" is not very well educated in the history of gaming- and especially not in the history of online gaming." You are entitled to it, however to assume because you disagree with me that I am not well versed in the history and depth of games is simply incorrect. Even people with the exact same background can have a difference of opinion. "Furthermore, I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the talent, means, and experience of anyone who cannot even secure quality web space, and thus has to use pop-up/pop-under driven geo****ties to host a page. " By making that statement you prove a couple of things, first that you do not really read very carefully before you launch into this sort of thing, and second by your continued use of the rude GeoCities spelling that you are rather crude. One last time, please try to read it. The GeoCities Site is my PERSONAL page, a couple of the original docs are available there. The GDG Site is hosted on a PRIVATE LEASED DOMAIN that was DONATED to the GDG. Got it now? "A complete lack of basic historical knowledge about gaming and the use of geocities creates a significant LACK of credibility. " That is just the most amazing conclusion, and one that is backed up by nothing whatsoever, have you ever heard of the scientific method? Are we done with this now? A.T (-)

05-08-2002, 05:33 AM	#33
Alexander Tau Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 101	Since I am obviously a bit annoyed at the moment, I am going to say something I intended not to. Does it strike anyone as Ironic that I am being so harshly questioned in a Forum that is my very own creation? I pitched the idea of an 'Advanced Mud Concepts' forum to Syn, and was the orginial Moderator. If I am lying then it will come out rather quickly will it not? I thought about 4 years ago that enough development had continued on MU*s despite dire warnings of death that something like this Forum was a worthy idea. Still around, score one for me. Threashold, You started out with a fairly reasonable tone, but you just assumed I wa a fool and did not ask me anything, this is disturbing. Do you really know NWN? Have you read the faq, tech info, to really get the full picture? If you have and you think it is just another kinda nice game then I accept that opinion. I think differently of course. A.T (-)

05-08-2002, 09:29 AM	#34
Threshold Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Threshold RPG Posts: 1,260	Aha. Now this whole forum was "your idea." Because lord knows, the idea of an advanced mud concepts discussion area was never conceived of before. A certain mailing list called mud dev springs to mind. The way you try to take credit for things does nothing but further undermine your motives and your credibility.

05-08-2002, 10:58 AM	#35
Vitaly New Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1

05-08-2002, 08:48 PM	#36
visko Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 98	I think we've strayed from the point a bit... Remember: we're talking about GDG. Whatever Tau's credentials/lack thereof, let's stick to the point of the thread. -Visko

05-09-2002, 04:24 PM	#37
Alexander Tau Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 101	Thank you Visko, The Game Directors Guild is doing quite well. People have been picking KaVir's brain non-stop, and we have recirenly added a couple members who have significant professional game backgrounds. I have to apologize for allowing myself to be drawn into these stupid debates, in any group of people, even the exceptional one here, there are always a couple of fools who just have to jump on others. A.T (-)

05-10-2002, 01:02 AM	#38
Synozeer Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 59	Just a note: Alexander Tau was a member of TopMudSites.com when it first went up, and he was a very active and contributing member of the forum. He also did indeed suggest the creation of this Advanced Mud Concepts forum because he felt there needed to be a place dedicated to discussing these "higher" concepts. -Synozeer

05-10-2002, 11:10 AM	#39
Steiner Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 31	I read this thread backwards, since the flaming on the last page was so much fun, I slowly worked my way to the actual POINT. Threshold, call it what you want, but focussing on the hosting of AT's website is kind of sad. Why don't you go insult his car, and tell him that makes him worthless to the MUD community. I usually don't really get involved in these types of posts, simply because I dont have the time anymore, and dont want to deal with ego vs. ego. However in this case, it directly affects me, since not only has AT been very helpful to me, but I myself am a game director. You know how much experience I have creating a game? Little to none. Does that completely destroy my credibility when I have an opinion on something? I'm working my hardest to collect staff, resources, ideas, and support. It doesn't take 10+ years experience to do that. Will I make mistakes? Sure. But I AM entitled to my opinion, and it shouldn't be flushed down the toilet. The same applies to AT who has MUCH more experience than the average MUDder. IF you have an opinion on his website hosting, on his experience, or on his opinions, it's usually NOT helping the Advanced MUD Concept board. Thats where being an adult, or at least being a mature human being comes into play. Calling it "geo****ties" reflects the fact that you can't keep your opinion in a moderate tone, and show a certain amount of a decency or respect to the person posting. Try and treat the person who starts posts like this, or any posts in the forum, as if they are standing on a stage in front of a large crowd of people, which isn't that far from truth in a way. You wouldn't yell "You idiot! Look at that yellow tie! Im not listening to anything you say." The same applies here. Ask questions that will be productive, make suggestions, even point out things that might be problematic or you disagree with. But going to attack a person that makes the post outright, is not only immaturely idiotic, but doesn't serve to improve anything. This might have been just a bit off topic, and for that I apologize. Unfortunately, things like this have to be addressed if this is going to be a productive forum, and not just a flaming attack free-for-all.