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Old 02-21-2004, 11:31 AM   #41
Molly
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I think the main problem with some of the more ardent roleplayers is that they tend to take themselves way too seriously. If they could losen up a bit and try to apply some humour to the absurd situations that sometimes occur in a Mud, they would do not only their co-players but themselves as well a big favour.

If a Mud contains combat code that allows you to score exp. points from killing mobs, obviously some players are going to kill those mobs. If you cannot handle that without sneering at the players that do, you should find a mud where all actions, including combat, are emoted.

A fact is that quite a few Muds that announce themselves as RP mandatory still have a strong element of hack'n'slash, and this sometimes can lead to funny situations. The example below is from Threshold.

(Disclaimer: This is not meant as any flame over Threshold, which I actually think is a pretty good game, in spite of my frequent clashes with Aristotle on these boards. It could have happened in any Mud of a similar type. Anyhow, here goes

One of the Newbie areas in Threshold is a small farm with some chicken and cows and other animals, that you obviously are supposed to kill. I was in a room with a cow. I was not 'interacting' with it (not even in any indecent way), just studying it, contemplating whether or not it would be safe to kill.

Now in Threshold you don't see the name of other players until you have introduced yourself to them (a somewhat lengthy procedure, but very IC). So in from the left comes a player, who on my screen looked something like 'a brown-eyed Dwarf' since we hadn't been introduced. Next this Dwarf opens his mouth and says:
'Fair maiden, would you mind if I kill your cow?'

Sure - it was bad roleplay. But after all, the Mud WAS RP enforced, and he obviously didn't want to take any chances, in case some nitpicky imm was lurking in the background.

And it gave me one of my best laughs on line that week.
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Old 02-21-2004, 12:05 PM   #42
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Kavir, I was referring to players that go beyond treating it as a game.  I'm talking about players that are so obsessed with getting or (even more so) staying ahead of everyone else that they resort to behavior that is not considered acceptable behavior in society such as stealing, cheating, lying, etc.  Now, in an RP MUD, where one assumes a role and portrays it, such things are "acceptable" because they're being done in-character, not because the player wishes to have the best equipment or the most money.  That player could then go on to later play another character who's a charitable priest or something.  It's about portraying the role.  But what I was refering to was not in-character behavior, it is player behavior.  Playing the game is one thing; wanting to outdo others to the point of cheating or spoiling their enjoyment even though they're not interfering with you is another.

Now, as for your accusation that "people like you who wish to ban those who do treat the mud like a game", I do not believe in punishing players that stay within the bounds of a MUD's rules.  Players that want to punish someone for simply playing a game by the rules is not something that I condone.  That applies to RPers trying to force RP on a non-RP-enforced MUD and H&Sers trying to justify random killing on RP-enforced MUDs.

Now as for there being a MUD for everyone, I agree completely.  But my point is that if you want to RP, why do so on a MUD that isn't really designed for RP?  After all, there are plenty of MUDs out there.  I mean, if you saw a restaurant and a hardware store next to each other and you happened to be hungry (and you've got plenty of cash), why go to the hardware store to eat just because they've got a vending machine inside?  Same goes for RP.  Nothing says you can't play more than one MUD, one for RP and one to indulge your appetite for H&S.

In regard to talking to mobs, Molly, no it's not all that there is to RP, but it is a good element of RP.  Why?  Well, because the mobs are there to add to the RP environment.  If an RPer's not going to interact with the MUD environment, why not just RP over AIM?

I started MUDding five years ago on H&S MUDs.  After a while, I branched out away from H&S and began playing RPI MUDs as well.  Over the years, I've migrated to RPI MUDs, solely playing them for well over a year.  I quite H&S MUDs because I didn't like playing a game that had veteran players cheating and acting vindictively just because they wanted to get ahead.  And for me, I'm just not a competitive person.  I play MUDs to relax.  The leveling and killing mobs just didn't appeal to me.  In fact, I recently realized that on one RPI MUD I've been playing for 11 monthes now that I haven't killed anything at all in all my time on the game!  I haven't had characters that had any reason to kill anything, be it hunting or self-defense.  But on an RP MUD, you don't have to do that.  That's pretty much the point and you're surrounded by players that understand that because they're the same way, they're trying to portray their character, not race to kill as much as possible.

Personally, I feel that levels and experience points have no role in RP.  With the software running things, all the calculations and data can be stored and processed without the PC ever seeing it, allowing them to focus on their role, not their statistics.  But that's a different discussion entirely.

Yui, strategy has its place in everything.  But I'm talking about the difference between assuming the role of a character and portraying it (RP) and not.  Both can involve strategy.  But there's a big polar difference between doing something because your character would do it and doing something because you would do it.  For example, on one of the MUDs I play, my character has more than enough money to purchase a house.  I would like to get a house for the character because it would make playing the role so much easier (easier to travel, easier to logout, etc.) but I have not purchased a house because my character wouldn't do it.  Their occupational requirements are contrary to settling down in one place long enough to do so and even if that wasn't the case (and I know that there are several good justifications that I could come up with for doing so), my character still has personal reasons for why they wouldn't want to buy a house and settle down in the area.  Hence, while buying a house would be easier for me, the player, I won't do it because it doesn't fit into the personality of my character.

Pris, you've either got some issues or I touched a nerve.  Whichever it may be, I hope you eventually figure it out, because it's really unbecoming.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 02-21-2004, 12:59 PM   #43
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Duh, I know the difference between IC and OOC, and I certainly know that both can involve strategy. The polarization I'm talking about is your reference to RP as if it were the only alternative to mindless gaming activities. It isn't.
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Old 02-21-2004, 03:51 PM   #44
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Prof1515, you quit H&S muds because you couldn't stand the cheating and the way some people played. That's fine, I would do exactly the same. I think all of us would. Where you go SERIOUSLY wrong, and why I label you a troll, is because you then take that experience and use it to canvas every H&S mud in existence.
That's like me saying that every RP mud is filled with the half-elf/vampyre creation that every teenage AOLer wants to make. It's gross misrepresentation designed to garner exactly the response I gave you.

You had a bad experience on a H&S mud. That doesn't define H&S muds everywhere. Any decent H&S game smacks cheaters down as harshly as any decent RP mud slaps down people who refuse to RP. You just found a bad game. It wouldn't matter if it was RP or H&S. A bad game is just a bad #### game.

Yours,
Pris
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Old 02-21-2004, 03:58 PM   #45
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Ok prof1515, but I get to be the insane maniacal armsman tactical genius +2134087, who is truly psychotic and just wants to kill everything in a personal quest for total domination. I'll play it in character, I'll keep to the basic storyline, but you will all die by my hand. Repeatedly. And suffer horribly every time. I'll even emote the branding of your genitals and hot poker to eye part.

But....I don't think you want the insane psychopathic master of arms +2134087 on your MUD. You want to reenact your favorite fantasy novel, or create one of your very own based on the unique interactions of the people who MUD with you, and that's cool.

Just don't come to my MUD. And I won't go to yours. (Usually; sometimes it's fun to run in on a MUD with a bunch of thugs and beat the place bloody until we get banned, but my days as a cowboy are numbered. I'm too old for that stuff anymore.)

To address the "if it ain't RP, it's HnS", there is a MUD called Groundzero. Rarely is it alive anymore, because the learning curve is a bit steep and with the dropping off of MUDders who like to run around and hit things all day as their only means of entertainment, we simply don't get newbies anymore.

Groundzero doesn't save equipment. It reboots about every 90 minutes, depending on some hard-coded infrastructure that can (and should) be subverted occasionally. It has nothing to do with levelling, powereqing, etc. The entire point of the game is tactical combat. RP is *not allowed* simply because it has no place in the game, and because the average maturity level of anyone who plays there is far below that of an accomplished RPer.

I've been realizing the limitations of how deep you can get into the social aspects of a game without RP as of late; I'm mellowing out. However, not everyone is looking to have an in-depth conversation with a Lamia over in Old Thalos. For us, it's more interesting to play with ever-developing MOB AI, create large armies of players and MOBs, and go have a war or three to see what kind of combat tactics we can surprise the other guy with.

You talk about moving beyond the game itself, and I agree with you - it is possible to do so. But not just in an RP fashion; military tactics, spying, subversion, valor, strategy are also thought excercises that move above and beyond a simple interaction with a game. Instead of being reactive to the game, you take advantage of the inner structure of the game, at the code level through testing and experimentation. It's simliar to RP'ing with the entire world, but takes another path. The starting and ending points, in my opinion, are similar enough to be called the same.

This thread started with a different problem: bad MUDs. Our hero (and thread-starter) is simply expressing frustration with overzealous/extremist focuses on a specific way of playing the game, or a specific demographic of game-players. I think he's basically justified in his gripes, and to him I say: make yer own, keep looking, or go back to the MMORPG where WYSIWYG. Especially with the complex nature of MUDs, it's rarely even possible to hold to WYSIWIG, because even the IMPS don't know what some crazy 13-year-old is going to do tomorrow. And whether or not the code will be able to stand up to their intellectual ramblings.

-Visko
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Old 02-21-2004, 04:40 PM   #46
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Heh, most of the complaints sound a lot like me, except for I am the exact opposite and prefer rp enforced, since if it is not, there tends not to be much rp.


I'm currently working on opening my first mud ever, and the primary goal I have is as few rules as possible! LOL I mean, that is the MAIN driving force in my design process. I am SICK of muds with reems of rules trying to get you not to do things that come about because the game is designed in such a way that that is exactly what you think you ought to be doing to enjoy it!

So, bravo this thread, as far as I am concerned.
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Old 02-22-2004, 05:10 AM   #47
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Old 02-22-2004, 03:03 PM   #48
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To be quite certian, an RPI MUD or an RPE MUD is a mud which caters to those who desire strictly IC play. It is designed for those who do not wish the outside world (or, real life, as it is sometimes called) to interfer with their excursion into a fantasy world.

Those who do not wish to be involved in this depth of play should not play an RPI or RPE MUD. And ideally, RPI and RPE and RPM should mean the exact same thing. That they do not is why the MUD that I play takes care not to call itself RPE or RPM, but rather, RPI.

Whoever said, "Different strokes for different folks," was very wise.
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Old 02-22-2004, 06:06 PM   #49
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This sentiment to me has always begged the question, if you don't want folk killing npc's just for xp, why give xp for it and why so much, and why, in fact, even make the ones killable that you want treated more like citizens than monsters or invaders or whatever?

I mean on the one hand yes, that is extra work, but at the very most the rule should be temporary until the code has caught up to the rp theme of the mud. Then, if you want combat to be part of how people go about advancing, let them seek out the invaders, thieves, monsters, demons and whatnot that are good rp to kill.

To me, a fundamental flaw in most muds though is the reliance on rules to enforce what is essentially poor coding in relation to the intended theme of a mud. This I find more especially offensive in muds where I am asked to pay to play, then run through the wringer for not obeying one of about 1000000 rules that are there solely because the admins have not done their job and customized the code to fit their intended theme.
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Old 02-22-2004, 06:48 PM   #50
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Old 02-22-2004, 08:30 PM   #51
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I couldn't agree more that the code in most "role-playing enforced" MUDs is inadequate to the job.  That's one reason I play what are often now refered to as "role-playing-intensive" or RPI MUDs.  These MUDs, a short list to be sure, are designed around creating a role-playing world, not using existing MUD code and requiring RP.

To date, I've only run across a very short list of MUDs which qualify for this label:  Armageddon, Harshlands, Shadows of Isildur, Forever's End (no longer running), Forever Ends (status unknown), Chronicles of Ritnarium (no longer running), Shadows and Mist (not open yet), and a couple others.

These MUDs were designed for RP, not for points-killing, and their code reflects that.  You don't see things like experience points and levels.  They're not meant to be seen because those are elements of a game that are not relevant to RPing a role.

Now, everyone likes to see progress.  But you don't need levels or experience points to see progress.  For example, I was trying to separate egg whites the other day (I'm a horrible cook) and I successfully did so with 78% of them (number of times I successfully got an egg white into a frying pan without any yolk).  The last time I tried, I was only 67% successful.  The time before, about 50% successful.  That's progress.  The same thing can be done with an RP game.  No exact numbers showed on a screen need be.  Instead, if a player wants to know that they're getting better, they need to start thinking (*gasp*  THINK?) about how they've progressed over time rather than simply look and see hard evidence of it in the form of a number (and if one wants, as I did above, one can generate numbers if they stop and think about their actions and successes).

And even failure is a good thing on a MUD.  Not many people do it, but why not RP a failure at life, someone that isn't good at things:  someone who's ugly and untalented instead of good-looking, powerful, and skilled at everything?  In real life, people who are inept or complete idiots can survive and even prosper.

And that was the purpose of my original post.  To point out that RP-accepted and RP-encouraged MUDs don't really cater to an environment in which one can RP because the element of success is intrinsically linked to them through their code.

Anyway, from some of the comments I've seen in response, I can see that some of you understand and even agree with what I said.  And like I noted in my original post, when you remove personal barriers and honestly think about it, "RP-accepted" and "RP-encouraged" really aren't geared toward RP.  It's a square peg and a round hole.  Sure, you can sometimes fit the two together and noone says you can't have good RP in such an environment, but don't be surprised if you have problems as well.

And nothing's wrong with H&S if that's your cup of tea.  But combining H&S and RP can cause conflicts between the two concepts.  That's why, while I was still playing H&S, I used to play two MUDs.

Well, I'm tired of typing.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 02-22-2004, 09:44 PM   #52
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What a copout. You're not approaching this from the administrative perspective of an RP mud at all. So to solve your problem of people killing things "JUST FOR THE EXP POINT", you throw people in the IC jail for going on NPC rampages. And if they have legitimate reasons for killing things, perhaps because they are hunters, you give them a license. And if they abuse their license, you revoke the thing and then throw the poor sap in jail. Of course you still give people the option of unlicensed killing or assassination, but these people then run the risk of being caught.

As a hardcore RPer you need an IC reason to dislike these rampages. In this scenario the rules are just shoring up a lopsided implementation of a game or an incomplete world-view.
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Old 02-22-2004, 10:06 PM   #53
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It seems to me, somewhere along the line, that this post had left the original subject and drifted to the whole RP/Non-RP subject. Quite personally, I don't feel like reading all the stuff posted between the beginning and now, so I am in the dark.

It also seems that, people (not all, but some) are using stereotypes to describe the "opposite" ilk of players. If it hasn't been said already, then I'll happily say, "The only difference between a roleplayer and someone who does not roleplay (H&Ser, etc.) is just roleplaying" No "ilk" is smarter, cooler, more pompous, or more disrespectful than the other. One likes to use roleplaying to establish their characters in the world they are playing. One likes to pick up a game, create a character, and just play as they please and interact with one another, most likely with no obligation to some game enviroment or other players.

(I could be completely wrong, because I don't have loads of experience on H'n'S MUDs)

Whoever mentioned something about H&Sers playing a particular MUD more like a game:

MUDs are games. However, Games tend to be played differently, and some people use roleplaying as their play-style.

MUDs should be fun for whoever plays them, if a particular one doesn't suit your tastes, move on. If none of them do, encourage someone to create one that does, quit MUDing, or adapt.

Anyways, that's my little 2 cents.
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:13 AM   #54
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I think that says it all, if you don't like what you see, move on until you find one you like. Whether it fits in the category it claims to be in your opinion doesn't *really* matter, obviously someone must think it fits and the only thing that matters is if you like it enough to play it.

There are so many MUDs out there, surely all tastes are catered for, if not, make your own, that's what most people do.
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Old 02-23-2004, 01:01 PM   #55
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I don't see how that's hard at all. Why do you dislike people going through your city killing random people?

That's not enough of a deterrant. At first they would, but once they were caught by the Imms they would get a talking too, punished, etc. If after a while of this it doesn't work, they'd get told to leave.

Throwing someone in jail wouldn't make sense and would hardly be a punishment. They idle for a while, punishment over. IC punishment for IC actions. OOC punishment for OOC actions. Jail is an IC punishment. Banning or blood loss code being put on your character is OOC punishment.
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Old 02-23-2004, 01:21 PM   #56
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Exactly. The reasons are easy to find, but you're still circumventing IC reason when you make these rules. These rules are OOC as you've willingly admitted, and they're still a copout for poorly designed games.

If throwing someone in IC jail isn't enough of a deterrant, then you do some IC torture, IC maiming, and perhaps IC killing of their character. Asking someone to leave just shows that the IC consequences for these actions are ill-thought out. A twink is not going to be much of a twink anymore if his arm gets cut off for violating his hunter's license.

Now look who's tearing down straw men: If your punishments are not enough of a deterrant, increase them. I think not being thrown in jail for a rampage doesn't make sense. Where do you play, CriminalMUD?

Going on NPC rampages is not an OOC action, as it's very well-supported by the game code and worldview. Just look at reyth's example of the leet armsmaster that performs all of these actions completely IC.
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:13 PM   #57
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Going on NPC rampages is most certianly an OOC action, UNLESS there is an IC reason for it. And even if there is, don't expect to walk away from it unscathed. If you are going to treat the NPCs like mindless robots, then expect them to one day become intelligant robots.
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:14 PM   #58
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Kill their character and they just make a new one and do the same thing again (I've seen this happen).

Going around killing all the NPCs in an unrealistic manner after every reebot is not IC. It's OOC. It'd be like me kicking an elephant to death (something that was only recently made impossible on my mud).

They'll just kill their character and make a new one.

Of course, but that stops them for how long? Until they get let out. And if you cut off an arm, see above on why that doesn't work.

I disagree on the worldview part. Going on NPC rampages is an OOC action, especially if you do it with only NPCs and let PCs live. If you continue making homicidal maniacs every single character, with the docs saying homicidal maniacs aren't more common then in real life, then your eventually getting to the stage where your looking for excuses to be able to go around killing everything in sight.

There is also the problem where laws only exist in cities. So getting thrown in jail won't happen by killing beasts. You can always make laws outside the city, but you have a choice. Change a thematic aspect to stop players doing something, or keep a thematic aspect and just deal with their OOC actions OOCly.
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:00 PM   #59
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Congratulations, the same can be said for any action in the game.
And that, sir, is the entire point.

Looks like your new character approval process needs improvement, then.

So how is it possible to kill an NPC in an unrealistic manner if all of the possible ways to kill an NPC are coded? If you're complaining about a character using OOC knowledge of the concept of a reboot and the location of spawnable NPCs, this is indeed an OOC infraction that is dealt with by your existing policies of using OOC information IC. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about immortals making rules explicitly that ask players to leave for killing NPCs "JUST FOR THE EXP POINT". Since players can twink in an IC fashion, the rule is an OOC punishment for an IC crime.

And kicking an elephant to death is not impossible. It just requires a lot of patience, or maybe some bladed boots.

Letting PCs live would constitute OOC knowledge influencing IC actions, and is therefore dealt with by other policies. Your argument doesn't address the issue at all if, for example someone goes on an rampage where there's only NPCs around, which I presume would be quite common in the wilderness. Though a better term for the issue would be a rampage for character improvement (i.e., experience points) in general.

Again you're not addressing the fact that this sort of thing can happen in an IC manner. So what happens when a poor 'dwarven' character is traumatized by his lack of power in saving his family from destruction, and makes it his driving force to become the most powerful creature in the game? This is just an example, and it can happen in numerous other ways, but you're suddenly applying an OOC rule to IC actions and breaking your world view!
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Old 02-23-2004, 04:25 PM   #60
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