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Old 12-19-2003, 05:27 AM   #1
Andris
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So I'm wandering through the top MUD listings, and see this one that's at 20. Thought I'd give it a try. After I make my char, and log in, I see this (edited for despamming)

Some irony at work here...the arch of law breaking the TMS rules which state;
Make you just really wonder how ages of despair got into the top 20 don't it?
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Old 12-19-2003, 07:17 AM   #2
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No, it doesn't make me wonder how they got to the top 20 at all.
All it required was 13 people to vote twice each over a period of 10 days (which I believe is how long the current reset is at). Inferno, which is higher up on the list, has well over 100 players, and they're only in the 200+ count for votes as well.

Perhaps what Ages of Despair is doing is wrong...but I'm pretty confident that it isn't doing what it is intended to do - which is jack up the votes.

If the game you're playing isn't on the top 20 list, then maybe your player base is just too small to make a dent. That's really what it boils down to. The size of the player base = your game's place in the vote count. It has very little to do with whether or not the game is any good.
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Old 12-19-2003, 09:49 AM   #3
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It's no suprise to me either. The player base there has always been very flexible and easily swayed be treats from the admins. Free reincarnation allows you to re-choose your character over from scratch including race selection as well as freeing all total exp without penalty so you can go into a really kickass combo and use ALL your experience towards skills and spells of your new guild combo. Most of the players there are of yourg age and bought easily. As a former player of two years there, I'd be somewhat knowledgable in this. Also, this MUD has long been known for it's corrupt administration and rule bending. It is always for a good purpose though - to benefit the MUD as whole and promote its name. Really though, it is being gone about wrong and TMS cannot be held responsibility for the selfishness or silliness of people running a MUD. The people who run this MUD have good hearts, but it also seems they have bad reasons. Rock on AoD.
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Old 12-21-2003, 02:21 PM   #4
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Hmm..

Corrupt Admin? Most of the truly corrupt got nuked and all the original staff have retired.

Free reincarnation? Yes this does happen, but is done very rarely, often only when a guild needs to be closed and the admin doesn't want to penalize the players for something they where not responsible for. There have been maybe 3 free reincarnation events in the last two years that where not due to a closed guild and they where all connected to a holiday event or some other significant event. They have not as far as I am aware been used as a reward for voting.

As for kickass combos are few and far between. Nearly every guild in the game has been revanmped and rebalanced over the last year and the Woodland Mage guild that truly was the most kickassed one in the game is closed for major renovations and fumigation. Most people in my experience that use free reincarnations also use the normal method 2-3 times a year, because they get tired of playing what they are and can't seem to stick to one long enough to actually get good at it. I am a mere 10 levels from the maximum a player can have and know people who have played nearly since the very day the mud came online that don't have a third of what I do. The fact that they have some guild based form of ADD is their problem and doesn't reflect on the rest of the player base.

And as for the reward we did get. It lasted 24-hours and was for all players. Even so, less than 1/5 of the total players online per day voted. Too #### many lazy bums imho. But the fact is that the mud was down for several months, then only open for existing players for even more time. The result is we have been awol for over a year and are now trying to get new players coming back in again. If that takes a few bribes to get people off there butts, then so be it.

As for other kinds of 'treats'.... There are events that happen for halloween, christmas, easter and the like, as well as special trivia games that are sometimes run. Christmas may produce an exp boost like we got for a short time for hitting 20. Halloween and Easter often have hunts of sorts that let you get some exp just by finding balloons or easter eggs. The trivia are often won every time by the same people and the prize is rarely if every anything that provides in-game benefits.

So, are you honestly telling me that no other muds have special events for holidays? That when they do no one ever gets anything extra from it? You make it sound like wizards go around handing out useful bits or equipment at random, not useless bit of fluff like tee shirts you can't store or beers that instantly make the character so drunk they can't even move. For most people these things are complete annoyances and the 1-2 immortals that where caught giving people other sorts of stuff, outside of event prizes, got nuked soon after.

And as for players being a young age.. About 90% of the young players get themselves nuked or in trouble with Law almost the moment they log on. Others don't have the patience to figure the game out and quit. Where exactly did you see this list of ages for who plays? For myself I am in my 30s.

I suspect that you Grey are more than likely someone that either left before the new admin came in or you got annoyed at something that the new admin did as an interim fix, while they didn't have the time to fix the real problem. Even before the mud reopened to new players, there where a significant number of adjustments, both to the rules and the code for some specific items or guild abilities. These new admin are serious, both about people following the rules and about fixing the mess or inconsistencies and imbalances that exist in the game. This is in some people's minds a 'bad' thing. As apparently is the idea that admin should do silly things like randomly dropping junk into peoples inventory as a joke.

Just about the only thing I can think of that isn't useless is the godblesses. For maybe 20 minutes you may sometimes get a boost of HP an CP. It helps, but it is random, entirely at the whim of the admin and there was at least one time where the admin got so annoyed by the 2-3 fools that thought they had it owed to them that they actually decreased the global experience rate to 90% of normal for about an hour. Being one of those that never depends on or begs for such things, it was bloody annoying.
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Old 12-21-2003, 05:10 PM   #5
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Why do people always defend little white lies, or little infractions of the law as if nothing was wrong?  Especially with the excuses:

"but everyone else does it"   and

"it's not like [we/they] are completely breaking the law!"  and

"but [our/their] intentions are good ..."

*sigh*  Man too many people these days wanna bend and break rules, and then explain away what they did as if THEY are ok and should be allowed to get away with it!  Does that sicken anyone else, or is it just me?

Sorry if that offends, just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-21-2003, 05:42 PM   #6
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Angry

I don't think I ever claimed that. THe original point was that the Arch of Law is breaking rules TMS has put forth. EVERY admin should know the rules for the forums and sites they post on or are apart of. In game, I'm SURE they get on your case about breaking laws just as they got on MINE about bending them here and there. So, perhaps Ages of Despair should just be removed entirely from TMS for breaking the rules or have their account suspended for a time. It's really up to Synozeer but action should be taken to some degree I feel. It is wrong to bribe players, especially as an admin. It is dirty and downright corrupt. If players there don't see that then maybe they haven't learned to wipe their own butts yet either. It's messy. All I can say to that is *tsk tsk* Faye. Bad form.

If we learn nothing from this, it's that AoD has always had a large player base of loyal tools willing to do anything for exp, even illegal things, and a few sly admin up top trying to break the rules of the largest MUD forum out there. Too bad a player caught you and then LOGGED it all. I'll bet he/she will be nuked in the end for this as per usual treament of "traitors" on AoD. Some things never change.
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Old 12-21-2003, 05:42 PM   #7
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The odd thing is...if Shadowfyr was making an excuse, he messed up by saying

It is inexcusable anyhow...



These are TMS rules;

This is a reward;

And this is an incentive;

Most MUD want more players...but if you cheat to get them, it just damages your MUD in the longrun by giving it a bad name within the MUD community...don't people see this?
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Old 12-21-2003, 06:01 PM   #8
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I am not making an excuse, just pointing out the tendency of some ex-players to blow things so far out of proportion it is bloody stupid. If TMS and Synozeer have a problem with it, they have the admins email. However, I get very ****ed when someone like Grey comes along, who admits to bending rules (which probably means taking advantage of bug that he and others have been repeatedly told to not cheat with for over a year), and then tries to claim that one single instance of admin doing something stupid is proof that it is all some unfair form of discrimination against players that bend or break rules ****es me off.

There was another really long discussion on this a while back, it was very carefully followed and even included posts by TMS. In the end it was concluded that the issue wasn't *global* enticements, but bribery of individual players that was at issue. Specifically some muds that gave each specific player special items, abilities or extra exp for agreeing to vote. If this was an incorrect impression from the viewpoint of 'everyone' that read that previos thread on this subject, then I am sure Faye will happilly appologize for it and avoid doing so again. For myself, I don't need the bribe to vote and a brief reminder has generally been enough for *most* of the people that do vote. I can't say for certain how much the carrot really effected things. Maybe 2-3 people that wouldn't have otherwise?

I defend AoD because it is a good mud. What fool listens to someone that admits they broke the muds rules and didn't think they should have been punished for it, instead of someone that has played just as long and *doesn't* break them?
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Old 12-21-2003, 06:05 PM   #9
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I saw it plain and clear. I also saw that if their unfair/cheating tactics had actually worked, they'd be in a much higher position than 20th place.

I can try and cheat you all day and night, but if you refuse to bite, you can't accuse me of cheating, because my efforts didn't work.

That's what I'm saying happened. They *tried* to cheat. They failed. If you want to trash that particular game, you'll have to come up with something other than cheating as justification for your rant. It sounded to me like that's exactly what this thread's about - you wanted to trash that game, and saw that they tried to cheat, and used that as an excuse to start the thread.

Yes, they are wrong for trying. But no, their attempt isn't what got them to 20th place. What got them to 20th place was a ****-poor showing of votes on their player base, which should've been a lot higher if most of them had voted twice a day.
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Old 12-21-2003, 06:45 PM   #10
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Hmm. According too someone, Grey didn't just leave, he was nuked. Specifically he was nuked during a period when some dozen players where are thrown off for rule breaking and abuse of some serious bugs (since fixed) *and* several wizards also got nuked in that time, who had over stepped their authority, coded backdoors into thing they shouldn't have been in and a whole mess of other things. This was a mop-up operation designed to get rid of a lot of the worst offenders before administration got turned over a few months later to new people. Knowing this, I am amazed that his post wasn't one of the rambling attacks that several people made back then on here after the nukings. These where the worst of the worst and sadly a few good players even got nailed due to association with them (most of which have since returned).

All equipment aquired from these players or traded to other was confiscated and destroyed, since it was gained through exploits they where told repeatedly to avoid using as well. The old admin definitely had issues, the new ones absolutely do not put up with the kind of stuff this player and others got by with, *ever*. It should also be noted that some of the players that got nuked that day have consistantly tried to attack the character of the mud ever since they got nuked and none of them seem to want to take responsibility for what they did. which is one major reason why they are never going to be allowed back on.

These are the people that caused the old management to retire and the new management to impliment stricter rules, not to mention focusing nearly all their time for months tracking down and crushing the original bugs. Careful who you listen too people, this player, if he is who I have been told, hasn't been on since *any* of the changes have been made and has no clue what things are like now. If it is him, then he is also one of the worst abusers and thus has 0 credibility to begin with.
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Old 12-21-2003, 11:07 PM   #11
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I have no intention of trashing any game.
I see a MUD that's in the top 20...what I see as the high profile area and more popular MUDs. Within minutes of logging in, I see what I have twice quoted on this board.

The rules state that you cannot offer incentives or rewards, yet both were offered. Though I do not suppose the TMS listings can never be a 'fair' indication of what is, and what is not a good MUD, and instead is just how many people from MUD 'x' decide to vote, anything that goes aganist the rules of the site should be brought to attention of the MUD community.

But hey, next time I won't bother...if you can't beat 'em - join 'em.
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Old 12-22-2003, 01:32 PM   #12
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Hrm.. let's see. Did those admin ever show any proof that I had abused any bugs? No. The old administration told the player base to believe them or leave. They never showed any proof. I was nuked for having proof of their cheating and wrongness and was removed for that reason. I was friends with those people and I did not like what they had done. I was there, along with all those wizards who got nuked and removed because I wanted AoD to become a better place. Why not try asking for those supposed "logs" of all the stuff I had said/done? They don't exist. Any also, if they *did* exist, then I was unfairly being watched. Nobody who I was associated with ever broke the rules. Faye is FRIENDS with Troela, the OWNER of Seasons of Almadyn MUD and if you ASK her openly, she will tell you we never did anything wrong. Nobody hacked your MUD because nobody we know CAN hack. Ignorant players are the worst kind. If you feel the need to speak out of your ass to defend your MUD, so be it, but come with real evidence. What has been posted here is real evidence and it is not detrimental to the MUD, but it is bad etiquette. The rule should not have been broken as it is a direct breach in TMS policy, something you agree to, just like an EULA when you install a program. AoD always had a 'zero-tolerance' policy for rule breaking as well as an 'ignorance is no excuse' policy. How is that for irony?

If you feel I'm still bitter about AoD, you're incorrect. It happened three years ago. I still hate to see this MUD trashing itself up over stupid, meaningless things like TMS votes and eve going as far as to break TMS rules to do so. This reflects very badly on such a place.

Also, I couldn't care less what changes have taken place since in terms of "balance" or "quality". They all tok place because AoD had none to begin with. It's a hack and slash MUD with no history behind it. It's like a book of empty pages. Blah to ignorance. Too many AoD'ers are saturated in it.
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Old 12-22-2003, 09:04 PM   #13
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Dusty and several others have returned. Yes, some people that didn't deserve it got nailed. This is unfortunately what happens when there is a strong association between those that did abuse bugs to cheat and people that partied with them. I may have gone to far in saying that you have no credibility if as you say you specifically didn't act wrongly, but I stand by the idea that what happened under completely different admin and far looser rules means as little with respect to the character of the mud as the fact that it has changed does to you.

Also, by attack I did not suggest Hacking. There where a few one or two wizards that overstepped what they where allowed when still able to log in. There where also 1-2 case of people losing their characters do to sharing (i.e. someone got lucky and guessed their passwords). This is their own fault imho, for using passwords someone could guess, but this was the action of maybe one single person that as you said, didn't have any skills, but got lucky. What I meant was the tirades a few of the more disgruntled people went on and the tendency of a few to bring up how unfairly they where treated at every opertunity. This also was a small number of people.

As for if rules where broken by Faye in this case, like I said, look at the other thread on the same subject. Faye chose to act based on what came from *that* discussion. It may not fit the strict letter of the law, but it doesn't break the spirit of it, which was to prevent certain highly abusive muds from giving special favor to *only* those people that voted. Again, if Faye has acted wrongly, no one that has posted so far has the righ to judge if or to how great a degree this broke the rule or define the punishment for it.

In any case, if you are who I was told, then I never considered you a bad player or knew you to do anything wrong. I wasn't really aware of those that did either, but too many good player where lost that day. Some have gotten permission to return, other have since quit because they literally got ****ed off at the new Admin for being too strict and inconveniencing them, while still others have gotten tired of playing and simply quit. I hate seeing any of these things happen.

As for posting proof. It is true that they never did, but then I doubt they do so in any other places either. Some things also may not have even appeared in logs and only been known through more direct observation. I don't think what was done was handled at all well, but it was done by people that where tired of people ignoring them, tired of listening to people whine about problems and just plain tired. People in such a state can seriously over react.

I didn't like it when it happened, but I hate people using what happened in the past to cast bad light on the way it is now.

Until Synozeer chooses to chime in and say definitively, I stand by what I said about the prior discussion of whether this specific case is a cheat. I do know for certain that when that thread was happening, I and a few others kept Faye up to date on what was being said. If you want to blame someone for breaking a rule, then blame me and the others that read the thread for telling her that enticements that are not player specific where OK.

Hmm, since no one seems to even want to look, the thread was:



Specifically page 5, first post:
This is what Faye is basing the in-game incentive from. The bold and italic part is what allows for what Faye did. If this has in fact changed, then please point out where the new posting is that mentioned the change, so I can inform her. Being one of those the made it a point to inform her of what the change in rules where when they first happened and the limits of what was allowed, fault for any error must fall at least in part on my shoulders for not being aware that the second sentence in that statement was removed from the official rules. Assuming that it is in fact no longer there.
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Old 12-22-2003, 10:49 PM   #14
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I've already contacted the admin and haven't heard back yet. If by the time I return from my vacation on Friday (which I'm on right now and why I haven't done anything yet), I will suspend AoD. It is against the rules.

Adam
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Old 12-22-2003, 11:00 PM   #15
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Nemene wrote:

Synozeer wrote:

I see Synozeer already responded. The above conversation is from Feb 12th Admin Forum, Topic Rewards,Voting
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Old 12-23-2003, 01:34 PM   #16
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Ok. I was not aware of this change in policy and the admin of AoD have been very busy with a lot of ingame issues, so also probably assumed that the original form from that thread was still in effect. All I can say is Ooops!

That said though, such shifts in policy are not common and I doubt most mud admin, or players, check periodically just to make sure they haven't changed. It was an honest mistake.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:19 AM   #17
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Currently, the rules page reads:

It doesnt say anything about game-wide incentives being allowed. That post says the rule changed on January 16th 2003. Someone needs to update the rules page if that is correct.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:39 PM   #18
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The admin at AoD have talked to Synozeer about the issue and it has been resolved. No more needs to be said on the matter.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:18 PM   #19
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Well, a post from the admin and an update of the rules is still required.
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Old 12-28-2003, 02:03 PM   #20
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Umm. The rules are up to date. AoD's admin based their actions on what I guess you could call a pre-release version of the rule for this situation. My guess from the lack of any obvious disaster is that Faye and the other admin of AoD where told to comply with the 'official' rules and don't do it again. A post by Synozeer to this effect would either get a lot of people grumbling about how it should have been worse or be pretty much a non-event.
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